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ATD2011 Thomas D. Green Final: (2) Guelph Platers vs. (5) Cincinnati Fireworks

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Old
05-07-2011, 10:49 PM
  #1
Velociraptor
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ATD2011 Thomas D. Green Final: (2) Guelph Platers vs. (5) Cincinnati Fireworks

Guelph Platers

Head Coach: Al Arbour
Player Development Consultant: Gary Roberts

Clark Gillies - Bryan Trottier - Rick Middleton
John Ogrodnick - Rick MacLeish - Rene Robert
Mike McPhee - Dave Poulin - Yuri Lebedev
Martin Gelinas - Jason Arnott - Rick Vaive
Spares: Craig Simpson, Dmitri Khristich

Mike Ramsey - Guy Lapointe
Steve Smith - Eric Desjardins
Jamie Macoun - Reijo Ruotsalainen
Spares: Sylvain Lefebvre

Walter "Turk" Broda
Felix "the Cat" Potvin

vs.


Cincinnati Fireworks

Head Coach: Jacques Demers

Bert Olmstead - Darryl Sittler (A) - Bernie Geoffrion
Dean Prentice - Paul Ronty - Ed Litzenberger (C)
Red Berenson - Art Chapman - Dolly Swift
Shayne Corson - Rick Meagher - Jerry Toppazzini
Spares: Danny Grant LW/RW, Marc Savard

Larry Robinson (A) - Allan Stanley
Vitaly Davydov - Viktor Kuzkin (A)
Paul Shmyr - Mathieu Schneider
Spares: Larry Hillman, Bob Turner

Bernie Parent
Gerry McNeil

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05-08-2011, 08:46 AM
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Guelph Platers

PP1: Middleton - Trottier - Vaive - Lapointe - Desjardins
PP2: Ogrodnick - MacLeish - Robert - Smith - Ruotsalainen

PK1: Dave Poulin - MacLeish - Ramsey - Lapointe
PK2: Bryan Trottier - Middleton - Smith - Desjardins


Cincinnati Fireworks

PP1: Olmstead - Sittler - Litzenberger - Geoffrion - Robinson
PP2: Berenson - Ronty - Swift - Schneider - Kuzkin

PK1: Prentice - Toppazzini - Robinson - Stanley
PK2: Berenson - Meagher - Kuzkin - Davydov

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05-09-2011, 09:27 AM
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I would like to thank all of the GM's who voted me through, I have to new take on the ATD I am pleased that my thoughts did not fall on deaf ears. I forget which GM it was but they said regardless of the regular season ranking you have to beat everyteam in your division anyways and I took that to heart and agree 100% with that.


This brings me to my new series, good luck BC this should be a fun series.

I would like to start off by saying I like the match-up, I assume BC plans on using Trottiers line against my top line. I plan on playing Robinson-Stanley with Geoffrions line so this should be a great match-up for the Fireworks as we have our top pairing out against their man offensive force in Trottier. As much as I like Gillies he is by far the worst offensive 1st liner in this series a major advantage for the Fireworks.

Im still not sold on the playmaking balance of their 2nd line.

Im not sure the function of the 3rd line? Lebedev is an offensive guy and Mcphee and Poulin are both defensive guys with little offense?

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05-09-2011, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I would like to start off by saying I like the match-up, I assume BC plans on using Trottiers line against my top line. I plan on playing Robinson-Stanley with Geoffrions line so this should be a great match-up for the Fireworks as we have our top pairing out against their man offensive force in Trottier.
Yup, Trottier over Sittler is a huge advantage two ways and he'll be against your best every opportunity.

Quote:
As much as I like Gillies he is by far the worst offensive 1st liner in this series a major advantage for the Fireworks.
In this series Gillies main goal will to be to play responsibly, chip in a bit off offense here and there, harass your goalie and most importantly: pound the hell out of Boom Boom (and anyone else who gets in the way).

Quote:
Im still not sold on the playmaking balance of their 2nd line.
Glad you brought this up.

Your "top notch" playmaker has 8 points in 21 career playoff games. I'm not too worried.

I'll go with my twin turbo engine of playoff performance centermen Trottier and MacLeish any day.

I know your second line has some nice placings in the regular season but in the post season their careers are absolutely underwhelming even if you take into account era:

NameGPGAPts
Ogrodnick4118826
MacLeish1145453107
Robert50 221941
Totals2059480174

NameGPGAPts
Dean Prentice54131730
Paul Ronty21178
Ed Litzenberger4051318
Totals115193756

I know some of this is due to era, of course, but the fact of the matter is 2/3 of the guys on your second line played on dynasty level clubs (and Ronty quit after finally moving to a budding dynasty because of pay after a horrible playoff performance).

Any way you try to spin it that is an awfully big gulf of difference in playoff experience and proven production, in my opinion. I mean 19 goals in 115 playoff games as a unit.

Secondly, MacLeish is the type of player who can make something from nothing on his own. Robert has very good puck retrieval skills and work ethic at winning pucks and making plays from that. I have no doubt they will win a matchup with your second line, and we're going to play them head to head with your second line every opportunity.

Quote:
Im not sure the function of the 3rd line? Lebedev is an offensive guy and Mcphee and Poulin are both defensive guys with little offense?
Their function is to grind you into dust.

Welcome to the playoffs, please don't enjoy your stay!

Lebedev was apparently also quite a gritty chippy player.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 05-09-2011 at 10:14 AM.
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05-09-2011, 01:56 PM
  #5
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I know some of this is due to era, of course, but the fact of the matter is 2/3 of the guys on your second line played on dynasty level clubs (and Ronty quit after finally moving to a budding dynasty because of pay after a horrible playoff performance).
That's pretty unfair to Litz, who was not the same player after the car crash which killed his wife and was nothing but a grinder by the time he went to the Leafs. Put a prime Ed Litzenberger on those Toronto teams and it's a whole different ballgame. Dean Prentice's playoff scoring is actually pretty good considering era and the fact that he was such a strong two-way player. I don't see any problems there. Ronty's playoff scoring...yeah, it's a bit underwhelming, but then again, those Bruins were pretty bad playoff teams overall (below .500 in two out of the three seasons they qualified while Ronty was there), and guys in that situation in that era often got checked to a standstill. Ronty was a bottom liner in Montreal, so it's hardly surprising that he didn't produce much offense in his last playoff appearance; he probably barely saw the ice. I think Ronty's playoff record is ok. Maybe a bit below average, but nothing shocking.

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05-09-2011, 02:00 PM
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That's pretty unfair to Litz, who was not the same player after the car crash which killed his wife and was nothing but a grinder by the time he went to the Leafs. Put a prime Ed Litzenberger on those Toronto teams and it's a whole different ballgame. Dean Prentice's playoff scoring is actually pretty good considering era and the fact that he was such a strong two-way player. I don't see any problems there. Ronty's playoff scoring...yeah, it's a bit underwhelming, but then again, those Bruins were pretty bad playoff teams overall (below .500 in two out of the three seasons they qualified while Ronty was there), and guys in that situation in that era often got checked to a standstill. Ronty was a bottom liner in Montreal, so it's hardly surprising that he didn't produce much offense in his last playoff appearance; he probably barely saw the ice. I think Ronty's playoff record is ok. Maybe a bit below average, but nothing shocking.
This is the same coulda shoulda woulda that Marcel Dionne gets beat up for repeatedly on here, though.

I'm not denying that these were good hockey players, I'm saying that their playoff records despite multiple cup wins, are not flattering. My team is full of guys who rose up come springtime.

It isn't like my players played on outstanding playoff teams during their whole careers, either.

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05-09-2011, 02:27 PM
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Yup, Trottier over Sittler is a huge advantage two ways and he'll be against your best every opportunity.
And.....

Olmstead over Gillies
Geoffrion over Middleton
Robinson over Lapointe
Stanley over Ramsey

Is an even bigger advantage



Quote:
In this series Gillies main goal will to be to play responsibly, chip in a bit off offense here and there, harass your goalie and most importantly: pound the hell out of Boom Boom (and anyone else who gets in the way).
Don't worry Larry Robinson is more than able to take care of Gillies, not to mention Olmstead,Prentice,Corson,Schmyr. Overall the Fireworks certainly have the edge in toughness.

Quote:
Glad you brought this up.

Your "top notch" playmaker has 8 points in 21 career playoff games. I'm not too worried.

I'll go with my twin turbo engine of playoff performance centermen Trottier and MacLeish any day.

I know your second line has some nice placings in the regular season but in the post season their careers are absolutely underwhelming even if you take into account era:

NameGPGAPts
Ogrodnick4118826
MacLeish1145453107
Robert50 221941
Totals2059480174

NameGPGAPts
Dean Prentice54131730
Paul Ronty21178
Ed Litzenberger4051318
Totals115193756

I know some of this is due to era, of course, but the fact of the matter is 2/3 of the guys on your second line played on dynasty level clubs (and Ronty quit after finally moving to a budding dynasty because of pay after a horrible playoff performance).

Any way you try to spin it that is an awfully big gulf of difference in playoff experience and proven production, in my opinion. I mean 19 goals in 115 playoff games as a unit.
Perhaps you've missed this point being your 1st ATD, but it's tough to penalize players who have low playoff totals due to playing on weak teams and not being able to perform in the playoffs. Yes my 2nd lines playoff point totals are low but their regular season finishes are ahead of yours not to mention the line functions a lot better than the three shoot first players on your line.


Quote:
Secondly, MacLeish is the type of player who can make something from nothing on his own. Robert has very good puck retrieval skills and work ethic at winning pucks and making plays from that. I have no doubt they will win a matchup with your second line, and we're going to play them head to head with your second line every opportunity.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves any of these 3 players are above average and Ogrodnick is below average. There is a combines 1 top 10 assist for these three and they are all PP Goal scorers, with Robert and Macleish having there numbers exagerrated by playing with top units and guys like Bobby Clarke.

Ronty alone has more impressive point finishes then those three combines, with Litzenberger having the best goal finishes out of any 2nd liner in the series and Prentice being by far the best cornerman/physical player in any of the series. I really cant see how this line will function.

Quote:
Their function is to grind you into dust.

Welcome to the playoffs, please don't enjoy your stay!

Lebedev was apparently also quite a gritty chippy player.

??? Grind into dust? Is that the polite way of saying they offer zero offense. I'm really baffled with this line. Lebedev is not a physical threat at all and does not fit his linemates either.

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05-09-2011, 02:28 PM
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Honestly, Prentice's playoff numbers are better than I thought they would be.

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05-09-2011, 02:52 PM
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Honestly, Prentice's playoff numbers are better than I thought they would be.
Im not concerned with how this line would perform in the playoffs. As well as Prentice Litz captained 3 stanlet cup winning teams well after his prime and Ronty as Sturm pointed out played on the weak Boston teams.

In order to judge this line you have to do a little more than looking at the combined playoff Games played and point totals.

Litz and Ronty played the majority of thier playoff games outside of their primes.

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05-09-2011, 03:02 PM
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I think Ronty's playoff record is ok. Maybe a bit below average, but nothing shocking.
Among 40 2nd line centers, I don't see very many that you could claim Ronty to have outdone in the playoffs.

I can completely sympathize with not getting much of a chance, but if you're choosing between guys who didn't get the chance and guys who did and were at least average, I'm choosing the latter every time, as far as playoff record is concerned.

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05-09-2011, 03:03 PM
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Litz captained 3 stanlet cup winning teams well after his prime
He was Captain in Toronto too?

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05-09-2011, 03:08 PM
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And.....
Don't worry Larry Robinson is more than able to take care of Gillies, not to mention Olmstead,Prentice,Corson,Schmyr. Overall the Fireworks certainly have the edge in toughness.
Robinson can definitely handle himself as well as anyone in hockey history, but no, you won't have the edge in toughness.


Quote:
Perhaps you've missed this point being your 1st ATD, but it's tough to penalize players who have low playoff totals due to playing on weak teams and not being able to perform in the playoffs. Yes my 2nd lines playoff point totals are low but their regular season finishes are ahead of yours not to mention the line functions a lot better than the three shoot first players on your line.
You're right, I am going to penalize your players who have low playoff totals due to playing on weak teams (even if two of them did play on dynasties..) and "not being able to perform in the playoffs".

This is the playoffs!

Quote:
Let's not get ahead of ourselves any of these 3 players are above average and Ogrodnick is below average. There is a combines 1 top 10 assist for these three and they are all PP Goal scorers, with Robert and Macleish having there numbers exagerrated by playing with top units and guys like Bobby Clarke.
Ogrodnick is below average in his playoff history because he also played for very weak teams who bowed out early when he did make it to the playoffs.

And his playoff scoring is still markedly better than any of your second line players even if you give them a bump for era.

Your second line players aren't even in the same league as MacLeish in the playoffs.

Quote:
Ronty alone has more impressive point finishes then those three combines, with Litzenberger having the best goal finishes out of any 2nd liner in the series and Prentice being by far the best cornerman/physical player in any of the series. I really cant see how this line will function.
Ronty has 1 goal and 8 points in 21 career playoff games.

Litzenberger has 5 goals in 40 career playoff games.

Welcome to the playoffs boys.

Prentice is "by far" a better cornerman/physical player than Gillies or McPhee.... according to anyone besides you?

Quote:
??? Grind into dust? Is that the polite way of saying they offer zero offense. I'm really baffled with this line. Lebedev is not a physical threat at all and does not fit his linemates either.
They obviously aren't meant to create a lot of offense. They are there to make you pay for every inch and score scrappy points. You might want to read Lebedev's bio instead of making things up.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 05-09-2011 at 03:17 PM.
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05-09-2011, 03:18 PM
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Among 40 2nd line centers, I don't see very many that you could claim Ronty to have outdone in the playoffs.

I can completely sympathize with not getting much of a chance, but if you're choosing between guys who didn't get the chance and guys who did and were at least average, I'm choosing the latter every time, as far as playoff record is concerned.
And in this case we're talking about a guy who didn't get much of a chance and didn't do anything with what he did get (Ronty) and a guy who lit it up and lead the league in scoring twice in the playoffs (MacLeish).

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05-09-2011, 03:27 PM
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Robinson can definitely handle himself as well as anyone in hockey history, but no, you won't have the edge in toughness.




You're right, I am going to penalize your players who have low playoff totals due to playing on weak teams (even if two of them did play on dynasties..) and "not being able to perform in the playoffs".

This is the playoffs!



Ogrodnick is below average in his playoff history because he also played for very weak teams who bowed out early when he did make it to the playoffs.

And his playoff scoring is still markedly better than any of your second line players even if you give them a bump for era.

Your second line players aren't even in the same league as MacLeish in the playoffs.



Ronty has 1 goal and 8 points in 21 career playoff games.

Litzenberger has 5 goals in 40 career playoff games.

Welcome to the playoffs boys.

Prentice is "by far" a better cornerman/physical player than Gillies or McPhee.... according to anyone besides you?



They obviously aren't meant to create a lot of offense. They are there to make you pay for every inch and score scrappy points. You might want to read Lebedev's bio instead of making things up.

I'll go into this into more detail when I have the time, its safe to say you agree with me having the enormous advantage inregards to first units as you completely bipassed this:

Quote:
And.....

Olmstead over Gillies
Geoffrion over Middleton
Robinson over Lapointe
Stanley over Ramsey

Is an even bigger advantage

Talk about fighting an uphill battle...

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05-09-2011, 03:37 PM
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He was Captain in Toronto too?
Nope. Armstrong.

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05-09-2011, 03:42 PM
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Litzenberger has 5 goals in 40 career playoff games.
Litzenberger's playoff record in Chicago is very much like Andy Bathgate's in New York: one great series (first round exit), and a couple more so-so performances. Litz in Toronto was a shell of his former self. I don't consider Litzenberger's playoff resume good relative to ATD competition, but it's also not as bad as it looks.

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05-09-2011, 03:43 PM
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And.....

Olmstead over Gillies
Geoffrion over Middleton
Robinson over Lapointe
Stanley over Ramsey

Is an even bigger advantage
I skipped it because I don't necessarily disagree with you on an individual basis depending on the context.

I do however think my guys stack up quite well against yours and I do think the Trottier to Sittler gap is fairly large two ways.

I certainly think they will be able to contain your first line quite well enough to expose the weakness you have throughout the rest of your lineup.

And that is before we even get to coaching and goaltending where I have a handy advantage for accomplishing that sort of thing as a team rather than as individuals.

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I'll go into this into more detail when I have the time, its safe to say you agree with me having the enormous advantage inregards to first units as you completely bipassed this:

Talk about fighting an uphill battle...
You don't have an enormous advantage on the first units.

My first unit is very strong both ways and physically.. and to be honest with the makeup of your team, they can focus primarily at slowing yours down at even strength and then my other lines (particularly my second which is the real enormous advantage in this playoff matchup) and special teams will have their chance.

I think you need to start dropping the poor downtrodden masses thing after the upset you pulled last round.

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05-09-2011, 03:45 PM
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Litzenberger's playoff record in Chicago is very much like Andy Bathgate's in New York: one great series (first round exit), and a couple more so-so performances. Litz in Toronto was a shell of his former self. I don't consider Litzenberger's playoff resume good relative to ATD competition, but it's also not as bad as it looks.
That's great and all. I like him as a player.

But he still scored 5 goals in 40 career playoff games.

And this is the playoffs.

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05-09-2011, 03:53 PM
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That's great and all. I like him as a player.

But he still scored 5 goals in 40 career playoff games.

And this is the playoffs.
Career playoff numbers like this are nothing but statistical smoke, in this case dragged down by a ton of games after his prime. How did Litzenberger do in the playoffs in his prime? That's what matters here. I'm sure it's not great, but it's going to be better than his career numbers make him look. Nobody drafts players for what they did when they were no longer in their primes.

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05-09-2011, 04:02 PM
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Career playoff numbers like this are nothing but statistical smoke, in this case dragged down by a ton of games after his prime. How did Litzenberger do in the playoffs in his prime? That's what matters here. I'm sure it's not great, but it's going to be better than his career numbers make him look. Nobody drafts players for what they did when they were no longer in their primes.
Ok then, he basically has no playoff record and my guys do.

There is no way to slice it that my second line doesn't clobber his in playoff performance unless we're giving fantasy credit to them while taking away from Dionne and Thornton every time they are referenced in the same sentence as the word playoff.

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05-09-2011, 04:06 PM
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Ok then, he basically has no playoff record and my guys do.

There is no way to slice it that my second line doesn't clobber his in playoff performance unless we're giving fantasy credit to them while taking away from Dionne and Thornton every time they are referenced in the same sentence as the word playoff.
Hey, "incomplete" is better than "known bad."

My thought about playoffs is that I don't care if a star was bad statistically, I want to know how or why he was bad, and avoid putting him in that situation (which generally means a lesser role than he had in real life). Other GMs obviously disagree.

I definitely prefer a good mix of playoff performers throughout my lineup, though.

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05-09-2011, 04:16 PM
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Though an "incomplete" playoff record isn't completely bad per say, but I don't think you can really call it better than below-average. It's not an issue to have one of these guys on a line, or two if you've got a really great playoff performer to pick up the slack, but I think there's issue with having arguably 3 incompletes on a single line, as I think is the case with Cinci's second (I argue Prentice is on the incomplete side as well).

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05-09-2011, 04:29 PM
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Though an "incomplete" playoff record isn't completely bad per say, but I don't think you can really call it better than below-average. It's not an issue to have one of these guys on a line, or two if you've got a really great playoff performer to pick up the slack, but I think there's issue with having arguably 3 incompletes on a single line, as I think is the case with Cinci's second (I argue Prentice is on the incomplete side as well).
54 GP 30 points in 50-60's is far from incomplete, thanks for coming out.


So according to BC if he were to go into the playoffs right now he's select Scott gomez over Rick Nash.... Thats how stupid and far off this theory is.

Penalizing a player because he happened to be on a weak team during his prime and was on a playoff team before/after his time is so wrong its hard for me to put it into words.


Again im still waiting for an explanation on your 2nd line playmaking wise. It is a very poorly constructed line. All 3 of the players are shhot first players how can anybody deny this?


I hope you plan on having your 2nd line score the majority of the goals because Robinson will shut down the only threat on your first line in Trottier and that 3rd line will provide ZERO offense.

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05-09-2011, 04:31 PM
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According to BC and LF Shayne Corson would be a legit 2nd liner in the playoffs for any ATD team. 87 points in 140 games.

If Dean Prentice is incomplete then Rene Robert with only 50 GP in the 80's should be considered the same.

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05-09-2011, 04:36 PM
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Also Bernie Parent's two Conn smythes put him well ahead of Turk Broda

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