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ATD2011 Thomas D. Green Final: (2) Guelph Platers vs. (5) Cincinnati Fireworks

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Old
05-09-2011, 04:39 PM
  #26
Leafs Forever
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
54 GP 30 points in 50-60's is far from incomplete, thanks for coming out.

Penalizing a player because he happened to be on a weak team during his prime and was on a playoff team before/after his time is so wrong its hard for me to put it into words.

Again im still waiting for an explanation on your 2nd line playmaking wise. It is a very poorly constructed line. All 3 of the players are shhot first players how can anybody deny this?

I hope you plan on having your 2nd line score the majority of the goals because Robinson will shut down the only threat on your first line in Trottier and that 3rd line will provide ZERO offense.
It's actually more likes 50s-60s-70s for Prentice, and much of that is one great run in 1966. Regardless of your definition of complete, that's not the kind of playoff record I'd want for a guy playing with two more definite incompletes.

I agree you can't completely critisize guys in such scenarios, but I really can't see how these guys can be classified as average or better.

Valid Guelp second line weakness.

I wouldn't say Trottier's the only offensive threat on the Guelph top line. Gilles/Muddleton are both kind of on the sub-par side offensively considering their draft positions,, but they are still legitimate scoring threats.

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05-09-2011, 04:43 PM
  #27
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According to BC and LF Shayne Corson would be a legit 2nd liner in the playoffs for any ATD team. 87 points in 140 games.

If Dean Prentice is incomplete then Rene Robert with only 50 GP in the 80's should be considered the same.
Woh, woh, woh. I'm just pointing out its a concern to have such a lack of complete playoff scoring on the 2nd line as you do; that doesn't mean I think your guys aren't viable 2nd liners, things on the 2nd line just boil down to playoff scoring, or that I think good playoff producers automatically get 2nd line spots.

I couldn't really say with a more detailed breakdown of the two on the latter point.

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05-09-2011, 08:48 PM
  #28
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Also Bernie Parent's two Conn smythes put him well ahead of Turk Broda
The Conn Smythe didn't even exist when Broda played.

And he is definitely a better playoff goalie than Bernie Parent in an ATD sense, despite Parent's great peak.

There is no goaltender in the history of hockey that I would say has a significant edge on Broda in the playoffs. He is just about as good as you can get.

After the Leafs came back from a 3-0 deficit in the famous finals series against Detroit, Jack Adams (their coach) said that "Broda hasn't got a nerve in his body. He could tend goal in a tornado and never blink an eye."


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 05-09-2011 at 09:00 PM.
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05-09-2011, 08:57 PM
  #29
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Before we go any further can anybody please explain to me what Gary Roberts role is as a "Player development" spot on the roster.

I know spares dont hold that much value around here but for gods sake does that not have any bearing whatsoever?

This is the 2nd round of the playoffs and instead of having a viable spare, we have Gary roberts in the press box as a player consultant...

It shows how important spares really are in this thing.



Parent has the best peak for sure and Broda has the longevity, I'd call them about even to be fair in terms of playoffs. Even if the Smyth was around would Broda win two?...

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05-09-2011, 09:00 PM
  #30
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I'm still going to need some selling on Mike Ramsey seeing top pairing minutes in an ATD thats for sure. John Ogrodnick is as big as "bargain basement" as you are going to get for a 2nd line ATD'r. I think he did not fit the line well and a player with more grit or at least some playmaking was inorder to play with the already shoot first dup of Macleish and Robert. Who is the puckwinner for that line?

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05-09-2011, 09:05 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Before we go any further can anybody please explain to me what Gary Roberts role is as a "Player development" spot on the roster.

I know spares dont hold that much value around here but for gods sake does that not have any bearing whatsoever?
You won't say that when we come out of the corner with the eye of the tiger, man.

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It shows how important spares really are in this thing.
Yup.

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Parent has the best peak for sure and Broda has the longevity, I'd call them about even to be fair in terms of playoffs. Even if the Smyth was around would Broda win two?...
Parent doesn't have the best peak for sure and Broda definitely has the longevity.

Broda is quite easily a notch above Parent in overall value.

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05-09-2011, 09:08 PM
  #32
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I'm still going to need some selling on Mike Ramsey seeing top pairing minutes in an ATD thats for sure. John Ogrodnick is as big as "bargain basement" as you are going to get for a 2nd line ATD'r.
Maybe but at least he still scored a bit in the playoffs.

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I think he did not fit the line well and a player with more grit or at least some playmaking was inorder to play with the already shoot first dup of Macleish and Robert. Who is the puckwinner for that line?
MacLeish is a singular talent able to make his own players, finish them or set up others. Robert is more playmaker than shooter and yes.. Ogrodnick is mostly a shooter.

As far as the puckwinner goes.. Do you even read before repeating the same stuff over and over?

Robert is a rather noted puck winner with a tireless work ethic - which I already mentioned in the thread earlier and in the assassination thread before that.

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05-09-2011, 09:08 PM
  #33
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How is Broda a notch better? Regardless if there were Conn Smythes or not Parent won two of them and you have no proof showing that says Broda would have even won one?

Eye of the tiger???? I'm lost


Rick Vaive and Eric Desjardins on a First unit PP is a glaring weakness in your roster. Im pretty confident my spare Danny Grant would be a better option then Vaive.

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05-09-2011, 09:12 PM
  #34
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Maybe but at least he still scored a bit in the playoffs.



MacLeish is a singular talent able to make his own players, finish them or set up others. Robert is more playmaker than shooter and yes.. Ogrodnick is mostly a shooter.

As far as the puckwinner goes.. Do you even read before repeating the same stuff over and over?

Robert is a rather noted puck winner with a tireless work ethic - which I already mentioned in the thread earlier and in the assassination thread before that.
Macleish is not a "singular talent" who do you think he is Lemieux? There is a reason he always gets drafted in the mid 300's get over that thought.

Robert is the playmaker?..... 1 career top 10 (10th) in assists.

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05-09-2011, 09:23 PM
  #35
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Gary Roberts is one of the worst spares in the draft probably, but he is still a spare. He'd be an super-ultimate tiebreaker at the end of the day.

For what it's worth, Broda one a single retroactive conn smythe in 1949. He is a great playoff goaltender besides that though, losing out on Smythe's to great players like Syl apps and the legendary Ted Kennedy. Which goalie is better goes behind Conn smythe counting, regardless.

I'd look behind top-10s to see if a person is a viable playmaker. Looking at soley top-10s rather underrate Darryly Sittler's playmaking and balance too.

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05-09-2011, 09:27 PM
  #36
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Macleish is not a "singular talent" who do you think he is Lemieux? There is a reason he always gets drafted in the mid 300's get over that thought.

Robert is the playmaker?..... 1 career top 10 (10th) in assists.
Keep telling yourself that while he rolls over 8 point playoff career Paul Ronty.

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05-09-2011, 09:30 PM
  #37
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Gary Roberts is one of the worst spares in the draft probably, but he is still a spare. He'd be an super-ultimate tiebreaker at the end of the day.

For what it's worth, Broda one a single retroactive conn smythe in 1949. He is a great playoff goaltender besides that though, losing out on Smythe's to great players like Syl apps and the legendary Ted Kennedy. Which goalie is better goes behind Conn smythe counting, regardless.

I'd look behind top-10s to see if a person is a viable playmaker. Looking at soley top-10s rather underrate Darryly Sittler's playmaking and balance too.
Parent beat out prime Bobby clarke, Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito etc...

Can he do the work and show Roberts placements? Because they look pretty underwhelming so far.
No thoughts on Ramsey, and Vaive and Desjardains?? Come on

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05-09-2011, 09:31 PM
  #38
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How is Broda a notch better? Regardless if there were Conn Smythes or not Parent won two of them and you have no proof showing that says Broda would have even won one?
He is the definition of money goaltender.

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Eye of the tiger???? I'm lost
I know.

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Rick Vaive and Eric Desjardins on a First unit PP is a glaring weakness in your roster. Im pretty confident my spare Danny Grant would be a better option then Vaive.
Yeah, 3-time 50 goal scorer Rick Vaive, with a fourth and a sixth in powerplay goals (in a bigger league than all the finishes you are bragging about for your players), while playing for dreadful Maple Leaf teams, can't use that big booming shot of his when setup by guys like Trottier, Middleton and Lapointe.

Desjardins is fine where he is behind Lapointe. Keeps my super Finn free to quarterback my second unit.

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05-09-2011, 09:32 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Parent beat out prime Bobby clarke, Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito etc...

Can he do the work and show Roberts placements? Because they look pretty underwhelming so far.
Honestly I don't care what you think about placements.

Obviously you picked all your guys with nice O6 or early expansion finishes but I don't have the time to go on all these goosehunts for you.

I know my second line is going to have a fun and very productive time playing against yours in these playoffs, and that is good enough for me.

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05-09-2011, 09:35 PM
  #40
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Keep telling yourself that while he rolls over 8 point playoff career Paul Ronty.
I guess the countless posts by myself TDMM and Sturm just arent sinking in are they??

According to your logic Shayne Corson would be an above average 2nd liner?


Olmstead>Gillies
Geoffrion>Middleton
Robinson>Lapointe
Stanley>Ramsey


and there is absolutely no arguement against this. What a huge advantage.

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05-09-2011, 09:42 PM
  #41
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I guess the countless posts by myself TDMM and Sturm just arent sinking in are they??

According to your logic Shayne Corson would be an above average 2nd liner?
When did Shayne Corson lead the playoffs in scoring like MacLeish?

You chose 2nd line players who had nice looking regular season finishes but no playoff record to speak of or laughably bad results (you can pick which one if you like )

Now you get to live with it against my second line which features a guy who led the playoffs in scoring twice playing with guys who at least produced.


Quote:
Olmstead>Gillies
Geoffrion>Middleton
Robinson>Lapointe
Stanley>Ramsey


and there is absolutely no arguement against this. What a huge advantage.
I guess I'm lucky that this is a team game.

They are closer than the gaping chasm my second line opens up over yours in the playoffs.

Arbour is a huge advantage over Demers.

Trottier a big advantage over Sittler.

And Broda is a big advantage in an ATD sense over Parent.

What a huge advantage.

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05-09-2011, 09:43 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
How is Broda a notch better? Regardless if there were Conn Smythes or not Parent won two of them and you have no proof showing that says Broda would have even won one?
What proof could anyone have to show that any player would have won an award before it existed? Broda is generally regarded as one of the best (if not the best) money goalie of all time.


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Rick Vaive and Eric Desjardins on a First unit PP is a glaring weakness in your roster. Im pretty confident my spare Danny Grant would be a better option then Vaive.
Both were good PP players in their day, but Guelph is definitely missing zip on their PP in general, on both units. It's a team that looks like it was built on two-way play and depth, which is something that hurts them on the PP.

Suggestion: dress Gary Roberts and put him in front of the net. Or at least lend him to me for my series against Ottawa, it's only fitting

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05-09-2011, 09:49 PM
  #43
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What proof could anyone have to show that any player would have won an award before it existed? Broda is generally regarded as one of the best (if not the best) money goalie of all time.
What proof does he have that Broda is a better playoff goalie then Parent?

Both were good PP players in their day, but Guelph is definitely missing zip on their PP in general, on both units. It's a team that looks like it was built on two-way play and depth, which is something that hurts them on the PP.

:[/QUOTE]

Agreed, not too much two way play on that third line

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05-09-2011, 09:53 PM
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Suggestion: dress Gary Roberts and put him in front of the net. Or at least lend him to me for my series against Ottawa, it's only fitting
He does have a thing for eating Ottawa alive, thats for sure.

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05-09-2011, 09:53 PM
  #45
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What proof does he have that Broda is a better playoff goalie then Parent?
What proof do you have that Broda wasn't a better playoff goalie than Parent?

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05-09-2011, 09:54 PM
  #46
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When did Shayne Corson lead the playoffs in scoring like MacLeish?

You chose 2nd line players who had nice looking regular season finishes but no playoff record to speak of or laughably bad results (you can pick which one if you like )

Now you get to live with it against my second line which features a guy who led the playoffs in scoring twice playing with guys who at least produced.




I guess I'm lucky that this is a team game.

They are closer than the gaping chasm my second line opens up over yours in the playoffs.

Arbour is a huge advantage over Demers.

Trottier a big advantage over Sittler.

And Broda is a big advantage in an ATD sense over Parent.

What a huge advantage.
Your 2nd line arguement is hilarious. Its soley based on Macleish playoff numbers As Robert and Ogrodnick both do not have impressive playoff numbers at all.

To summarize:

1st line-Fireworks
2nd line-Platters
3rd line-Fireworks(He is playing line vs line..this line serves no purpose)
4th line-wash slight edge fireworks

1st pairing-Fireworks
2nd pairing-Fireworks(Davydov is the best defenseman on either pairing)
3rd pairing-Fireworks

Goaltending-Wash
Coaching-Platters

Special Teams-Fireworks(PP and PK unit)

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05-09-2011, 09:55 PM
  #47
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What proof do you have that Broda wasn't a better playoff goalie than Parent?
im calling them a wash so it looks like you need to provide the evidence...

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05-09-2011, 09:56 PM
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im calling them a wash so it looks like you need to provide the evidence...

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05-09-2011, 10:17 PM
  #49
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Your 2nd line arguement is hilarious. Its soley based on Macleish playoff numbers As Robert and Ogrodnick both do not have impressive playoff numbers at all.
So you admit, they do HAVE playoff numbers though.


Quote:
To summarize:

1st line-Fireworks
2nd line-Platters
3rd line-Fireworks(He is playing line vs line..this line serves no purpose)
4th line-wash slight edge fireworks

1st pairing-Fireworks
2nd pairing-Fireworks(Davydov is the best defenseman on either pairing)
3rd pairing-Fireworks

Goaltending-Wash
Coaching-Platters

Special Teams-Fireworks(PP and PK unit)
Your opinion. The problem is you think that each piece has to beat each piece.

I made a team.

1st line overall I would give you an edge offensively but defensively I don't give you much (if anything I'm better) and physically you're possibly overmatched by Gillies and Trottier. Trottier is going to be a big factor.

2nd line we have you coming and going in the playoffs, my line is going to have a heyday.

3rd line, mine is designed to defend and grind down yours which is good because you probably have better playoff performers on your third line than your 2nd.

4th line, our line will generate offense against yours with its overall speed vs. only Meagher and he will be a physical mismatch against Arnott. Vaive could make a difference in this series here.

1st pairing you have a an edge, in that I would call it Robinson - Lapointe - Stanley - Ramsey, but again my pair complements one another very well and since they will be playing primarily with Gillies/Trottier/Middleton they will also have tons of support.

2nd pairing I think you overrate your side vastly. Smith is a physical monster defensively with some two way ability and Desjardins is very cerebral and solid both ways and twice a post season allstar. easy edge for Guelph. Desjardins will be the best player on either pairing, in my opinion, unless you count racking up gold medals against amateurs very highly. Secondly your pairing is very small and could be beaten or worn down along the boards by the kind of grinding team I have.

3rd pairing my Ruotsalainen > Schneider as a puckmoving talent and he doesn't have the poison in the dressing room. And Macoun a few people have said they think could play second pairing as a defensive defenseman in this.. easy edge for Guelph.

Goaltending is an easy edge for us as well. Broda is a legendary playoff performer and, while Parent's peak is impressive, in an ATD sense Broda looms pretty large here. And contrary to your opinion, you can try to prove otherwise if you want to disprove the canon but I'll let it speak for itself.

Coaching - Large advantage for Guelph since I consider Arbour one of the absolute best of all time and the leadership group that I have on this team suits him to a T.

PP - you have a fairly stacked first unit but I do have two great powerplay quarterbacks (one one each unit) so I hope that I haven't hamstrung my second unit and can go hard the full 2 minutes. I think people are somewhat discounting what a playmaker like Trottier could do with Middleton on his off wing shooting in, Vaive on the other side, and a shot like Lapointes on the back end. Desjardins I find is underrated in general and on the PP he had a accurate shot that seemed to get through a lot.

PK - I have two very strong groups of PKers, no way around that.

Good luck!


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 05-09-2011 at 10:24 PM.
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05-09-2011, 10:27 PM
  #50
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Quote:
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What proof does he have that Broda is a better playoff goalie then Parent?
What proof do you have that he wasn't? They were both ace in the playoffs, but you'll probably find most historians have Broda listed at least a little ahead of Parent in both playoffs and regular season.

Broda's GAA dropped in the playoffs compared to the regular season in 12 of his 13 seasons (it rose from 2.00 to 2.05 on year). He never had a playoff GAA over 3.00 (ignoring 1952 where he only played 3 combined games in the season and playoffs), and his GAA was under 2.00 half the time. His career GAA in the playoffs is under 2.00. He led the playoffs in shutouts 6 times. Raw numbers aren't everything (especially GAA), but when virtually every source you'll find raves about his clutch play in the post-season, I think it's fair to assume that he was as good as his numbers look.

They may very well be equals in terms of peak playoff performance, but Broda just did it more often, and has an edge because of that.


Last edited by arrbez: 05-09-2011 at 10:36 PM.
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