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Homer's Odyssey - A True Greek Tragedy

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Old
05-10-2011, 09:55 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by captain9nyr View Post
I live about a half hour outside of Philly in Jersey and a lot of my friends are big time Flyers fans. I write for a little website we run (www.phi-nysports.com) and, like most of us, hockey is my favorite sport.

Other than I got really bored at work today, I wanted to just give my thoughts on what I really feel is the downward slide of the franchise because of the mismanagement. I find their situation to just be really really interesting from a salary cap & prospect standpoint.
It's interesting only because our general manager is horrible and we've somehow managed to survive his idiocy.

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05-10-2011, 10:03 AM
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Everybody wanted Pitkanen to turn into our Pronger at this point and it became obvious that he would never live up to those expectations because he just could not handle the pressure.

It was the right decision to thrown him on the market at this time.

Same for Downie, young prospect with high potential but a complete headcase. You give him a second chance, maybe a third one the short leash but at some day you got to make a final decision.

Homer is not to blame on these two inho.
Exactly, everything else is fairly spot on but those two I just can't fault Holmgren on at all. Plus the return for Downie wasn't that badddd at all (here come the pitch forks and torches to chase after me). I mean, eh I'll take Carle over a 20-30 point headcase.

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05-10-2011, 10:07 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Carter has been our Even Strength MVP for the last three years.

Richards was not the Selke runner-up for no reason.

They're only 26 man.
Appreciate that, and as we are stuck with them until armagedon, I pray harder than anyone else that Carter breaks out one of these post seasons! God knows he's overdue!!

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Richards has had times where he's carried this team on his back offensively. More often than even that, he's placed this offensive core on his back defensively.

He's a physical presence and, based on the letter he wears, the centering factor in the locker room; the guy who everyone sees as the leader of the group.

How is he protected in terms of criticism? Every other freaking day I see another dumb thread about giving the "C" to Pronger or how Richards whines or how he's causing problems with the media. Enough already. If anything is overblown, it's his hate parade.

Or...

"It's all his fault, he's too quiet in the locker room."
"It's all his fault, he was invisible that entire series."
"It's all his fault, he should listen to Pronger."
"It's all his fault, he's out partying instead of focusing on winning."

Give me a break.
I guess it depends on the thread you read. Richards is clearly marmite.....You either are, or you are not a fan. I am.......Just not to the level that some of the guys I've read posting on here are, and certainly not to the 12 year contract level.....These contracts are ridiculous, there is just no flexibility with any player locked up for that long. It's a huge huge risk, and we have too many long term contracts.

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Everything is overrated. Everyone and everything. Less Than Jake was right.
When were Less Than Jake ever wrong?!?

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The sport of hockey is overrated by HF Boards. You learn to live with it.
Hard to disagree there!!!



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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
The sky is falling!
You joke, but this team has been put into a precarious position by Homer for the coming years. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds, but a major collapse wouldn't surprise me, and it wouldn't surprise me to see the Flyers tanking in the coming years. Infact, I expect it.

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05-10-2011, 10:25 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by CavemanLawyer View Post
Uhm...haha...gave up too early on Pitkanen? Desjardins came out and said Pit was a totally nut job - "They tried to give him support, but the youngster can't accept criticism and is very hard-headed. Even his (Finnish) compatriot Sami Kapanen had trouble with him and asked me to deal with it because he just couldn't do it any more." "

Add that in with Pitkanen crying because the booing hurt his feelings (no joke), Todd Fedoruk punching Pitkanen in the face during practice, etc. etc. List goes on and on. The team did EVERY thing to make him succeed here and in the end....uh...what can ya do?
My favorite part of the Pitkanen revisionism is that some people actually want him to come back through free agency.

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05-10-2011, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Villa View Post
You joke, but this team has been put into a precarious position by Homer for the coming years. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds, but a major collapse wouldn't surprise me, and it wouldn't surprise me to see the Flyers tanking in the coming years. Infact, I expect it.
We'll see how it plays out.

I think a lot of people on these boards jump to the conclusion that if the Flyers aren't a favorite to win the Cup every year they've failed miserably...and to add to the hilarity of this overly dramatic irony this forum seems to be caught in, if they don't win the Cup when they are favored they've failed miserably...

So, by process of elimination, if we don't win the Cup every single year then we've failed miserably...

I know that seems rather lofty, but that's exactly how this forum acts, as if perfection is expected rather than something unachievable. Maybe the players should strive for perfection, but as human beings on the outside pretending to be "analytical" and "objective" we should at least arrive at the conclusion that perfection may just be a tiny bit outside of our reach.

I'm sure most of us would calm down after a parade. I know I would. I took the sweep pretty hard as most of us probably did as well. Hell, I'd be surprised if more than 10% of this board was alive the last time the Flyers won.

So yeah, I think it's time to calm down a bit. Things could be better, but they could be a WHOLE lot worse. (SPOILER ALERT: Believe it or not, per HF we don't have the last rated prospect pool in the NHL.)

Honestly, I like our team moving forward with Richards in more of a defensive role (that third line center everyone's been begging for for like 3 years). Giroux I'm expecting to take the lead with JVR hopefully tailing behind, and you can't ask for much of a better second line center than someone like Carter.

So yeah, it's not all gloom and doom. Offensively, we're set to be stacked for the long haul. Defensively we've got to build around Meszaros and Coburn. We'll see how Gustafsson develops and whether or not Carle is a long term player for the Flyers.

Goaltending wise, I've noticed some significant flaws in Bob's game that he needs to iron out or his NHL career could be short and tragic. Eriksson is waiting in the wings and needs to develop some more overseas.

Wellwood looks like a solid, young winger. Ranford is exciting. We've got some other guys to watch (and pray for miracles from) in Matt Read, Jason Akeson, and Brandon Manning.

It's just another summer in Philadelphia. Unfortunately on HFBoards it's never sunny.

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05-10-2011, 10:36 AM
  #31
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If you dont strive for winning what do you strive for?

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05-10-2011, 10:39 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
If you dont strive for winning what do you strive for?
As I said...

You've seen that 82-0 Flyers commercial at some point right?

Obviously it's a joke because you clearly cannot possibly fathom an 82-0 season.

Still, as a player that should in all honesty be your goal; you want to win every night.

As outsiders looking in and analyzing the game from the perspective of someone who clearly has no impact on the outcome, we should be able to rationalize the fact that we're not always going to win every game and, likewise, winning a Stanley Cup is not exactly easy.

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05-10-2011, 10:44 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
As I said...

You've seen that 82-0 Flyers commercial at some point right?

Obviously it's a joke because you clearly cannot possibly fathom an 82-0 season.

Still, as a player that should in all honesty be your goal; you want to win every night.

As outsiders looking in and analyzing the game from the perspective of someone who clearly has no impact on the outcome, we should be able to rationalize the fact that we're not always going to win every game and, likewise, winning a Stanley Cup is not exactly easy.
Just because you cant win every game doesnt mean you dont strive for it. It's all in the mindset. If you go with the "I'll give it 100% every game", you have a higher chance of winning the game. If you go with "Well, we are in first and near playoffs. I will chill for abit" which the Flyers seemed to have taken (even their players said the locker room seemed chill even after losses), that mindset will greatly inhibit your team.

Just because the probability isnt high, doesnt mean you dont strive for it. Unlike some fans, Flyers fans can care less nowadays if the team just makes playoffs. There is no moral victory in just making playoffs. This team is in win mode RIGHT now. Look, as you know, Im fairly positive on some prospects, but in a few years, not drafting in the first round is gonna kill us. The window is now.

Too much have we heard the "oh well, we got unlucky this year. Next year will be our year!" From management. The ultimate goal for a team should be to win the cup, and being honest, thats my expectation from this team.

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05-10-2011, 10:46 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Just because you cant win every game doesnt mean you dont strive for it. It's all in the mindset. If you go with the "I'll give it 100% every game", you have a higher chance of winning the game. If you go with "Well, we are in first and near playoffs. I will chill for abit" which the Flyers seemed to have taken (even their players said the locker room seemed chill even after losses), that mindset will greatly inhibit your team.

Just because the probability isnt high, doesnt mean you dont strive for it. Unlike some fans, Flyers fans can care less nowadays if the team just makes playoffs. There is no moral victory in just making playoffs. This team is in win mode RIGHT now. Look, as you know, Im fairly positive on some prospects, but in a few years, not drafting in the first round is gonna kill us. The window is now.
Yes, but you're not a player, coach, trainer, or manager, so as much as you may want them to win, you can't will them to victory.

So, when analyzing success or failure, you can't pretend like you're a member of the organization; you have to realize you're an outsider looking in.

I can want them to win as much as anyone, but it doesn't change the fact that I have to analyze them as someone who doesn't have any impact on how they perform on the ice.

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05-10-2011, 10:48 AM
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Yes, but you're not a player, coach, trainer, or manager, so as much as you may want them to win, you can't will them to victory.
So that means we shouldnt expect it?

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05-10-2011, 10:52 AM
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So that means we shouldnt expect it?
No, you can expect it/want it/whatever it.

But that doesn't mean you have any impact in making it happen. So judging it as if it's "supposed" to happen and rampaging when it doesn't isn't effective.

Not to get all businessy with this, but if a business finished in the top 10 competing companies out of 30 every season, would the boss fire everyone and start over because he didn't finish first, risking a disastrous free-fall back to the bottom of the pack, or would he continue to strive for being first while building on what he already had to work with?

Neither method guarantees him of being in 1st place ever, but one sounds a lot better than the other.

You, on the outside, can recognize factors that are holding him back from being 1st, but that doesn't mean that he is in any position to change them. It also doesn't mean you can impact the business and fix those factors for him.

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05-10-2011, 10:53 AM
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So, by process of elimination, if we don't win the Cup every single year then we've failed miserably...
Dude, this is the greatest line you've ever uttered. I just turned 30 and have never seen this team win the Stanley Cup. You talk as if they're the Phils and won a couple years ago.

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05-10-2011, 10:56 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No, you can expect it/want it/whatever it.

But that doesn't mean you have any impact in making it happen. So judging it as if it's "supposed" to happen and rampaging when it doesn't isn't effective.

Not to get all businessy with this, but if a business finished in the top 10 competing companies out of 30 every season, would the boss fire everyone and start over because he didn't finish first, risking a disastrous free-fall back to the bottom of the pack, or would he continue to strive for being first while building on what he already had to work with?

Neither method guarantees him of being in 1st place ever, but one sounds a lot better than the other.

You, on the outside, can recognize factors that are holding him back from being 1st, but that doesn't mean that he is in any position to change them. It also doesn't mean you can impact the business and fix those factors for him.
Are you serious with this analogy, or is this sarcasm? Since, ya know, purpose of a business is to make money... the purpose of a sports team (divorced from the business operations) is to win ****. In fact, owners/teams get raked over the coals when the perception is that they are more interested in being a business than a sports team.

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05-10-2011, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Yes, but you're not a player, coach, trainer, or manager, so as much as you may want them to win, you can't will them to victory.

So, when analyzing success or failure, you can't pretend like you're a member of the organization; you have to realize you're an outsider looking in.

I can want them to win as much as anyone, but it doesn't change the fact that I have to analyze them as someone who doesn't have any impact on how they perform on the ice.
This is such utter horse ****. Should political commentaries avoid honest critique/analysis because they aren't politicians?

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05-10-2011, 10:59 AM
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Dude, this is the greatest line you've ever uttered. I just turned 30 and have never seen this team win the Stanley Cup. You talk as if they're the Phils and won a couple years ago.
I've never seen a 30-year-old on a forum stalk and berate some other guy before just to win some ego contest that the other is not interested in playing.

I'm not playing your games. You're not a kid anymore.

And I don't care if the Phils just won. It doesn't change the fact that overreacting and panicking causes bad things to happen. That's in EVERYTHING. Nowhere, ever has panicking ever solved anything, but if the team were left up to the HFBoards Flyers' forum every summer, the team wouldn't be worth cheering for; we'd be perpetually at the bottom of the NHL.

(EDIT: This thread was fun while it lasted, but I'll be moving on.)

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05-10-2011, 11:01 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No, you can expect it/want it/whatever it.

But that doesn't mean you have any impact in making it happen. So judging it as if it's "supposed" to happen and rampaging when it doesn't isn't effective.

Not to get all businessy with this, but if a business finished in the top 10 competing companies out of 30 every season, would the boss fire everyone and start over because he didn't finish first, risking a disastrous free-fall back to the bottom of the pack, or would he continue to strive for being first while building on what he already had to work with?

Neither method guarantees him of being in 1st place ever, but one sounds a lot better than the other.

You, on the outside, can recognize factors that are holding him back from being 1st, but that doesn't mean that he is in any position to change them. It also doesn't mean you can impact the business and fix those factors for him.
This isnt another one of those "Your just an armchair GM. You dont know anything about sports etc etc" post is it? If so, this is pretty overused.

Also onto your business thing (which really doesnt make sense... but Ill go with it). It all has to do with expectations. Small companies vs big companies. If your a big company paying, paying almost the most out of all 30 of the companies, wouldnt you expect to be better than 10 or so every single time? You strive for the #1 spot, knowing the positives that come out of it. You dont just settle for 10 and be happy. If I was the boss, and I kept seeing the same thing happen every year. Being average, not the best but not the worse, I would change what I have been doing. Fire some employees and keep some.


The armchair gm thing is overused. The position, whether outside or inside, doesnt affect what people see. If everyone, fans, writers, x-players, etc, all see the same thing and the Gm doesnt, does that make the GM right and everyone else wrong?

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05-10-2011, 11:02 AM
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I've never seen a 30-year-old on a forum stalk and berate some other guy before just to win some ego contest that the other is not interested in playing.

I'm not playing your games. You're not a kid anymore.

And I don't care if the Phils just won. It doesn't change the fact that overreacting and panicking causes bad things to happen. That's in EVERYTHING. Nowhere, ever has panicking ever solved anything, but if the team were left up to the HFBoards Flyers' forum every summer, the team wouldn't be worth cheering for; we'd be perpetually at the bottom of the NHL.
Dude, no one is interested in stalking you... don't pimp your ego up too much. It's an active thread, click on the link... see you, yet again, saying stupid crap. (If you ever land a real job in the spots media you're going to fit right in.)

Respond.

And why do you think people are panicking? Most of the crap people complain about with the Flyers are things people have been complaining about for YEARS with how Holmgren has managed the roster/team. That's the complete and utter opposite of "panic." Do you think people saying "we need a *ing real goalie" is panic? I mean, seriously? As noted, you're a complete empty shirt intellectually. You throw out platitudes and make grandiose statements attempting to capture all the folks you disagree with here under one umbrella and make it like you're this very sage commentator.

Get over yourself.

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05-10-2011, 11:05 AM
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The armchair gm thing is overused. The position, whether outside or inside, doesnt affect what people see. If everyone, fans, writers, x-players, etc, all see the same thing and the Gm doesnt, does that make the GM right and everyone else wrong?
No, the fact that he is the GM and we're not is not some saving grace to alleviate Holmgren from all his mistakes.

I agree that the "airchair GM" notion is overplayed, but this discussion has gone off on a tangent I didn't mean for it to go.

Granted mistakes have been made by Holmgren. Everyone knows it. That doesn't mean firing him is the best option for our team moving forward, nor does it mean that Holmgren has necessarily "screwed us" over in terms of the future whether it be short-term or long-term.

In the end this is just another "OMG! Look at the opportunity cost Holmgren is screwing up! We should fire him immediately!" thread. While I think analyzing the moves is a viable use of our time, jumping to conclusions that the absence of perfection from Holmgren should result in an automatic dismissal is not something I feel to be worth anyone's time. I'd rather sit down and judge his regime rationally from all angles than ignore major parts of why we're successful to begin with.

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05-10-2011, 11:05 AM
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(EDIT: This thread was fun while it lasted, but I'll be moving on.)
Yeah, just leave it to the morons who want to talk about GM decisions... I mean, why bother? They aren't GMs!

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05-10-2011, 11:52 AM
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I've never seen a 30-year-old on a forum stalk and berate some other guy before just to win some ego contest that the other is not interested in playing.

I'm not playing your games. You're not a kid anymore.

And I don't care if the Phils just won. It doesn't change the fact that overreacting and panicking causes bad things to happen. That's in EVERYTHING. Nowhere, ever has panicking ever solved anything, but if the team were left up to the HFBoards Flyers' forum every summer, the team wouldn't be worth cheering for; we'd be perpetually at the bottom of the NHL.

(EDIT: This thread was fun while it lasted, but I'll be moving on.)
who is overreacting? I think Flyer fans have the right to be ticked off. The last 3 months plus of the season were downright horrible. 11 wins since we got our 40th win in February. 31 losses. I wonder how many teams were behind us in that stretch. I would venture to guess, not many. This was supposed to be a Cup Contender. Instead we got downright embarassed in round 2 and could of lost in round 1 if it wasnt for Miller giving up a horrendous goal to Hartnell in game 6.
I am sick and tired of management wasting away our opportunities to contend by going cheap in goal, insisting we need idiots on the 4th line and giving away our draft picks like they were candy. I am not panicking. I am pissed off.
I am sick of this everything is ok mentality because we make the playoffs every year. How did that work for St. Louis who made the playoffs for like 25 years in a row or whatever it was? I would trade a Stanley Cup followed by 5 years of not making the playoffs. Thats how much I want to see a Cup. I dont care about making the playoffs every year. Being content on making the playoffs every year makes you once step closer to accepting losing. no thanks. I want to win. nothing else.

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05-10-2011, 12:09 PM
  #46
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So, by process of elimination, if we don't win the Cup every single year then we've failed miserably...
No cups for 35 years is failing miserably. Building a Stanley Cup caliber team with one massive flaw and watching it come back to bite you early in the playoffs is failing miserably.



Overall, I agree with a lot of what you said. But there are a few points I have to disagree with.

The Richards/Carter contracts: People are starting to view these both as negatives. You have two young core players locked up to great cap hits for a long time to come. Both of these were viewed pretty positive nationally. Other teams have given similar contracts away to their franchise players. Disagree that this "financial security" have lead to a decline in Richards'/Carter's effort. Not sure how anyone watching Richards in the play in the playoffs last year can really argue that... Carter came back in a week for an injury that normally sidelines a player for a month.

The Pronger trade: 3 first round picks and a young player (Lupul)? Really, Lupul had negative value and was only in the deal to make the salaries work. 4,250,000 a year for 4 more years was way to much for Lupul. There was a reason the Ducks shipped him out the next season. By throwing him in, the Flyers also probably needed to throw in an extra 1st just to make him worth it to Anaheim. Without Lupul, it probably would have been Pronger for 2 1st rounders. It does reflect on Homer's tendency to give away bad contracts that he would need to throw in Lupul but lets not act like losing Lupul was some big tragedy.

The Mez/Gagne trades: I'm probably going to catch some crap for this because I love Gagne and when I saw that trade, I was pissed. But taken together with the Mez trade, I think the Flyers came out ahead. Matt Walker will spend the rest of his contract in the minors and won't count against the Flyers in season cap. The Flyers basically flipped an aging, injury prone forward whose contract was up in a year + a late 2nd for a young, 2-way defensemen and a 4th. Meszaros was probably the most consistent Flyers defensemen this year.

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05-10-2011, 09:00 PM
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I'm not a Philly-guy, so this is the first time that I've seen this thread. Incredible writeup, OP. Very well researched and for somebody that hasn't been following Philly's transactions with the utmost scrutiny, very informative.


Looking back on my initial reactions to the deals stated, the one thing that remains my biggest question is why Luca Sbisa was thrown into the Pronger trade. I totally recognize that Pronger adds a cup-winning asset, but it surprised me completely given Sbisa's early success with the Flyers. This is outside of considering the contract that Prronger was given. Sbisa looked like the biggest 1st round steal of his draft year...I personally wouldn't have been so quick to give him up.

Granted, you have to respect the fact that HFBoards as a whole puts far more value in draft-picks/young-prospects than necessary. As the saying goes (loosely) goes: a bird in the basket is worth two in the bush. In general, acquiring substantial pieces like Meszaros and (arguably) Pronger outweighs the risk factor of prospects/picks.




The most interesting thing I've noticed in the OP is the differing opinion regarding Downie and Carcillo. Disregarding the hindsight factor, these players are not as far apart as the OP would suggest. At the time of their drafts, they were regarded very similarly coming into the league. Both were hot-headed middle-weights with good scraps and scoring touches in Junior leagues. Downie, at the time he was traded, was considered every bit the loose-cannon that Carcillo is seen as now. Perhaps even moreso. Clearly Downie has really excelled in Tampa's system, but at the time of the trade he was considered a huge wildcard that had a significant chance to turn into what Carcillo has become.


Not trying to pick fights because I certainly appreciate the OP (and subsequently ignored every other post in this thread), but it's far easier to look at things in hindsight than it is to predict how things can develop in the future.

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05-10-2011, 09:23 PM
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SolidSnakeUS
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I think when people mention Downie and Carcillo, Downie is like Sharp for us. He became better by not being here.

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05-10-2011, 09:50 PM
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Terence Peterman
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
I think when people mention Downie and Carcillo, Downie is like Sharp for us. He became better by not being here.
Yeah, except Sharp wasn't supposed to turn into a 30 goal scorer and everyone and their mother knew what Downie was capable of with a strong coach (read: Not John ****ing Stevens).

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05-11-2011, 12:10 AM
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Homer's Odyssey - A True Greek Tragedy


Clearly, the only answer is for Homer and his son to get together and kill all the guys who've been hanging around his house and hitting on his wife the last 20 or so years.

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