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If You Had to Choose?

View Poll Results: Who is should be held accountable?
Fire the Coach, he is a bum who overworked the crew. 1 1.92%
Send a message, do not resign Leino, move one of Carter or Richards or Hartnell. 21 40.38%
Strip the C off Richards, and move Carter or Hartnell. 13 25.00%
Do nothing, everything is fine, just let them talk it out. 13 25.00%
Fire the Coach and GM, the core needs to stay intact. 4 7.69%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-10-2011, 01:09 PM
  #26
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Fire Lavi, sign Homer to a 20 year contract, trade Richards AND Carter (Imagine how much value we can get!!!), along with Hartnell, Carle, Meszaros, Versteeg, Bob, and JVR (face it, we're gonna have to give to get!!!) for a goalie and a few first round picks.

That'll do it, right? We'd still have Pronger, Briere, and Timonen to show guys like Wellwood, Read, and Syvret the ropes in becoming this team's marquee players...AND WE'D HAVE A GOALIE!!!

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05-10-2011, 01:10 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
If there was a draft of only team captains, he'd be like the 20th player taken.
And Gagne wouldn't be a consideration for Team Canada.

Perspective is a wonderful thing. Flyers fans eat their young, yet ***** and moan if a good player is sent elsewhere (see: Sharp most recently).

If you asked the average hockey non-Flyers fan their thoughts on Richards, you'd get an entirely different response than the **** you try to sell.

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05-10-2011, 01:10 PM
  #28
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You base this on nothing except speculation.
Explain to me who is better at what Richards and Carter do, on this team.

Oh, you can't. Because nobody is. There is nobody to step up and replace them.

edit: That's simple fact. Not speculation. Rumor mongering = speculation. Observing which player is better than another is easy.

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05-10-2011, 01:15 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
I can't believe folks think they should strip the C from Richards.
Colossally stupid, IMO
it may make him a better player to not have the C on his sweater
as noted in an article I read on CBC
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbc - article
Richards should drop the "C" for an "A" because the interaction between Richards and the Philly media is painful to watch. Richards takes the questions very personally and everyone might be better off if he did it less often and simply concentrated on playing.

anyoen who says Kesler is better player than Richards, has definitely been smoking too much hooch

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05-10-2011, 01:17 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Swiper the Fox View Post
it may make him a better player to not have the C on his sweater
as noted in an article I read on CBC
Richards should drop the "C" for an "A" because the interaction between Richards and the Philly media is painful to watch. Richards takes the questions very personally and everyone might be better off if he did it less often and simply concentrated on playing.


anyoen who says Kesler is better player than Richards, has definitely been smoking too much hooch
Drop him to an A because the media doesn't like him? That makes no sense.

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05-10-2011, 01:18 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
1) You have decided the players are in charge. You base this on nothing except speculation which fuels your need to hate your teams' players. If they players were in charge, the goaltending carousel we just witnessed wouldn't have happened. According to Meltzer, everyone was dissatisfied with it. So, since they're in charge, why didn't they do something about it? Go ahead. Explain.
I have decided that this team needs a good kick in the pants. They need a goalie, the issues which are coming to the surface are the same things which have reoccurred over the last couple years. Inconsistent play, lack of accountability, "rumors" out of the dressing room. Basically something happened around the 2/26 mark of the season and it "sounds like" the team started to tune out the coach.

My personal view. The team had a nice run, they came into the 2010-11 season and had great success, guys got confident(cocky) and thought they could flip the switch when the wanted to. Coach called their bluff, core players revolted, in-house fighting began. March 17th the coach gave the players the rope and noose, no more workouts, let them handle their own matters, hope they show up in the playoffs.

Result:

Flyers are swept out of the playoffs by a lesser Bruins team.


Quote:
2) Richards goes nowhere. If you think he is, you are out of touch with reality. Carter is going nowhere. If you think he is, you are out of touch with reality. Hartnell moving will likely result in Homer getting Yzerman'd again because of his NTC.

Fine, I am not advocating for Richards to move unless it is the most viable option. Carter is the guy they have the best possibility to actually get some value in return, replenish some draft picks, get a valuable prospect in the system, and most importantly get a legit #1 goalie. Trust me, they lose Carter and this team still wins.


Quote:
3) This team was injured and tired. We saw what they could do when healthy last year. Aside from all that, Holmgren has handcuffed himself to the salary cap. Any trade that moves Richards or Carter will only result in the team getting worse, because no player on this team or that we would get back in a trade replaces them. How you fail to see this...I don't know.
Injured and tired in February? What was their record after coming back from a long layoff? Do you know? If not you should look it up, because it is not pretty. You are so immersed in the Carter and Richards are irreplaceable it is scary. That this team relies on them so much that if one left they would be worse off when we have had an issue with no goalie for years. It seems to me that the goalie issue trumps Carter or Richards especially with the emergence of Giroux and JvR.

This team issue is not physical, it is mental.

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Old
05-10-2011, 01:20 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Interesting, from Philly.com poll:

Should Jeff Carter stay or go?
Stay
925 (40.9%)
Go
1335 (59.1%)
Total votes = 2260
doesnt prove anything. A public poll where any fanbase can see it is not a true test to see where Flyer fans stand on Carter.

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05-10-2011, 01:21 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Drop him to an A because the media doesn't like him? That makes no sense.
huh

has nothing to do wtih media not likeing him LOL
to releive him of the pressure of always having to answer their questions
give him an "A" and just let him play hockey

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05-10-2011, 01:24 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Explain to me who is better at what Richards and Carter do, on this team.

Oh, you can't. Because nobody is. There is nobody to step up and replace them.

edit: That's simple fact. Not speculation. Rumor mongering = speculation. Observing which player is better than another is easy.
Giroux is way ahead of both at this point.

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05-10-2011, 01:25 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
doesnt prove anything. A public poll where any fanbase can see it is not a true test to see where Flyer fans stand on Carter.
It is a philly.com poll, do you read philly.com?

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05-10-2011, 01:27 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Why does nearly every option involve gutting this teams core?

Do we need to rebuild, or something?
Being hasty and myopic as well as cannibalizing the team's best players is endemic to being a Philadelphia sports fan.

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05-10-2011, 01:27 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Giroux is way ahead of both at this point.
I love Giroux's game, but while he's no Briere defensively, he's a long, long, long way from Richards or Carter. So no, he's not a suitable replacement for either.

Try again.

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05-10-2011, 01:30 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
It is a philly.com poll, do you read philly.com?
you do know that anyone can vote right? It doesnt say For Flyer fans only. so the Ranger,Penguin,Devils fans can vote in the poll.
its a irrelevant poll. who cares.
If it was the other way around you wouldnt of even posted it.

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05-10-2011, 01:32 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Giroux is way ahead of both at this point.
Offensively? Sure.

All-around game? Nope.

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05-10-2011, 01:34 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I have decided that this team needs a good kick in the pants. They need a goalie, the issues which are coming to the surface are the same things which have reoccurred over the last couple years. Inconsistent play, lack of accountability, "rumors" out of the dressing room. Basically something happened around the 2/26 mark of the season and it "sounds like" the team started to tune out the coach.

My personal view. The team had a nice run, they came into the 2010-11 season and had great success, guys got confident(cocky) and thought they could flip the switch when the wanted to. Coach called their bluff, core players revolted, in-house fighting began. March 17th the coach gave the players the rope and noose, no more workouts, let them handle their own matters, hope they show up in the playoffs.

Result:

Flyers are swept out of the playoffs by a lesser Bruins team.





Fine, I am not advocating for Richards to move unless it is the most viable option. Carter is the guy they have the best possibility to actually get some value in return, replenish some draft picks, get a valuable prospect in the system, and most importantly get a legit #1 goalie. Trust me, they lose Carter and this team still wins.




Injured and tired in February? What was their record after coming back from a long layoff? Do you know? If not you should look it up, because it is not pretty. You are so immersed in the Carter and Richards are irreplaceable it is scary. That this team relies on them so much that if one left they would be worse off when we have had an issue with no goalie for years. It seems to me that the goalie issue trumps Carter or Richards especially with the emergence of Giroux and JvR.

This team issue is not physical, it is mental.
You decided they need a kick in the pants without any sort of knowledge concerning what the lockerroom situation is, based solely on the rumors that are spawned by reporters who don't like Richards because he is a meanie. You have no proof for any of this in-house fighting. If it comes out down the line that it occurred, sure, so be it. However, right now, there is really no way to believe it, and any argument for a sweeping change based off it is knee-jerk at best.

If you're exhausted from a long grind, a 5 day layoff isn't going to be the cure-all. You aren't going to get completely rested. What they need, clearly, is a full offseason. I prefer if they didn't have one, but they do. If they look as exhausted next year as they did this year, there is no excuse and pants must be kicked.

As for the lull the last 3 years...first, Stevens was coach. He didn't keep them conditioned, and he wasn't a very good coach overall, so that lull happened. Last year, Lavi came in and had to whip them into shape. They had to learn new systems, and on top of that there were some major goaltending issue's and injuries. Of course there is going to be spotty performance during a transition. As for this year, they had a long run that they apparently weren't able to completely recover from and it caught up to them in many ways. Did you notice that many of our standout players in the playoffs and last half of the season were the ones who weren't on the roster for last year's run? Mez was good, Zherdev was energetic, and JVR (who wasn't used as much in last year's playoffs; he may even have been scratched at one point? I forget.).

As for trading Carter, and not missing his 35 goals...that is just absurd. Philly was 3rd in goals for this year. If you remove his goals, they drop to 18th. If goaltending doesn't improve(and with Homer...that's not impossible), that means the team scores only 5 more goals, on the season, more than they allow. That's bad.


And finally, the growing list of players who require surgery indicates that the problem is very much physical. It's likely mental as well, physical fatigue and frustration takes a mental toll. We can't measure or know what the players are thinking though, so I'm going to trust the injury list more than internet assumptions.

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05-10-2011, 01:45 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
I love Giroux's game, but while he's no Briere defensively, he's a long, long, long way from Richards or Carter. So no, he's not a suitable replacement for either.

Try again.
Are you kidding me? Giroux is already leading this team in points, faceoff %, not afraid of hits, can play wing or center, solid on the boards, and most importantly, makes the players around him better.

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05-10-2011, 01:49 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
you do know that anyone can vote right? It doesnt say For Flyer fans only. so the Ranger,Penguin,Devils fans can vote in the poll.
its a irrelevant poll. who cares.
If it was the other way around you wouldnt of even posted it.
I do not know many Rangers, Penguins, Devils fans who are reading the Philly scribes and then taking the time to vote in a multiplayer poll. You are stretching it a little bit. How credible are the voters? Probably moreso, they read the paper and follow the teams, much like I do. They know Philly.

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05-10-2011, 01:52 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
I do not know many Rangers, Penguins, Devils fans who are reading the Philly scribes and then taking the time to vote in a multiplayer poll. You are stretching it a little bit. How credible are the voters? Probably moreso, they read the paper and follow the teams, much like I do. They know Philly.
A vast number of Philly fans aren't credible. These are the same people that were talking about how Leighton was going to lead the Flyers to the Cup when he came up through re-entry waivers.

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05-10-2011, 01:59 PM
  #44
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I choose that people stop acting like Richards and Carter just killed our season due to laziness and lack of talent.

We lost for many reasons. We barely beat a crappy Buffalo team and we got swept by a HOT Bruins team. Our goalie sucks, our top defender was injured, our top goalscorer was injured and you guys act like we need to blow up our team.

Sometimes I wish we could trade half the idiot fans on here. Is Richards perfect? No. Is he a good captain? How the **** would any of you know? You aren't in the locker room or on the ice.

Throwing a hissy fit after a disappointing playoff series doesnt change the fact that we need to re-tool, make some adjustments and strive for a better result next season. Even if our team is firing on all cyclinders, there is no guarantee we could match up with the Canucks anyway, not with Boucher in net and Pronger out.

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05-10-2011, 01:59 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Ghost of Downie View Post
A vast number of Philly fans aren't credible. These are the same people that were talking about how Leighton was going to lead the Flyers to the Cup when he came up through re-entry waivers.
that is actually a bit unfair
once he came back, they didn't even allow him to play last 2 or 3 games of the regular season before putting him in net in the playoffs.
he may have let in 3 goals but............
didn't see bob do any better, and definitely didn't see boosh do any better either.

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05-10-2011, 02:03 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I choose that people stop acting like Richards and Carter just killed our season due to laziness and lack of talent.

We lost for many reasons. We barely beat a crappy Buffalo team and we got swept by a HOT Bruins team. Our goalie sucks, our top defender was injured, our top goalscorer was injured and you guys act like we need to blow up our team.

Sometimes I wish we could trade half the idiot fans on here. Is Richards perfect? No. Is he a good captain? How the **** would any of you know? You aren't in the locker room or on the ice.

Throwing a hissy fit after a disappointing playoff series doesnt change the fact that we need to re-tool, make some adjustments and strive for a better result next season. Even if our team is firing on all cyclinders, there is no guarantee we could match up with the Canucks anyway, not with Boucher in net and Pronger out.
Hear, hear.

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05-10-2011, 02:06 PM
  #47
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If I had to choose, the only thing I want in Philadelphia is a competent GM who is willing to do the things that need to be done to help this franchise win a Stanley Cup. We've seen Holmgren literally piss away draft picks, prospects and players to the point where the system is pretty empty. People can say what they want about Clarke, but there was always talent in the system. Give me a GM that can manage having the big club roster a bona fide Stanley Cup contender while keeping a good pipeline of picks and players in place.

As for the forwards, the depth that is there will probably remain (of course, Zherdev, Carcillo and maybe Leino are gone). I do expect a defenseman or two to be moved (looking at Carle and Coburn) and Holmgren will probably be told to make a concerted effort at signing Vokoun or Bryzgalov.

EDIT: I'd keep Laviolette though. He really is the best coach this team has seen. I'll go on record and say that he's a much better coach than Hitch ever was.

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05-10-2011, 02:07 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Swiper the Fox View Post
that is actually a bit unfair
once he came back, they didn't even allow him to play last 2 or 3 games of the regular season before putting him in net in the playoffs.
he may have let in 3 goals but............
didn't see bob do any better, and definitely didn't see boosh do any better either.
He let in 3 awful goals in 20 minutes. That's a GAA of 9.

My point is that Philly fans say "What have you done for me lately?" It's been Philly's MO for decades. What has Carter done for us lately? Nothing because we didn't win the Cup. Trade him.

EDIT: Let me rephrase my point with the fans and Leighton. They thought they should just plug him in and everything would be solved. Why? Because they remembered the Cup run last year.

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05-10-2011, 02:12 PM
  #49
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Are you kidding me? Giroux is already leading this team in points, faceoff %, not afraid of hits, can play wing or center, solid on the boards, and most importantly, makes the players around him better.
I guess you missed the word "defensively".

As I said, I love Roo's game. Have since the first time I saw him play in 2007. He's exciting to watch, he can perform magic at times. I wish he'd shoot more often, but that's one of the few weaknesses in his game. That and his defensive ability.

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05-10-2011, 02:21 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You decided they need a kick in the pants without any sort of knowledge concerning what the lockerroom situation is, based solely on the rumors that are spawned by reporters who don't like Richards because he is a meanie. You have no proof for any of this in-house fighting. If it comes out down the line that it occurred, sure, so be it. However, right now, there is really no way to believe it, and any argument for a sweeping change based off it is knee-jerk at best.

If you're exhausted from a long grind, a 5 day layoff isn't going to be the cure-all. You aren't going to get completely rested. What they need, clearly, is a full offseason. I prefer if they didn't have one, but they do. If they look as exhausted next year as they did this year, there is no excuse and pants must be kicked.

Team lost every game following a long break, including the week after the 2/26 Wives Carnival, All-Star break.

2/26: LLLLWWLWLWLLWLWLLLLLW

Twenty-one games, fourteen losses, seven wins, including a 3-7 record over the last ten games. So, were they exhausted all season? I guess all those Oiler and Isle teams in the 1980's, the Red Wings and Avs of the 1990's all have a different opinion of what it takes to be prepared for a "long run".

Quote:
As for the lull the last 3 years...first, Stevens was coach. He didn't keep them conditioned, and he wasn't a very good coach overall, so that lull happened. Last year, Lavi came in and had to whip them into shape. They had to learn new systems, and on top of that there were some major goaltending issue's and injuries. Of course there is going to be spotty performance during a transition. As for this year, they had a long run that they apparently weren't able to completely recover from and it caught up to them in many ways. Did you notice that many of our standout players in the playoffs and last half of the season were the ones who weren't on the roster for last year's run? Mez was good, Zherdev was energetic, and JVR (who wasn't used as much in last year's playoffs; he may even have been scratched at one point? I forget.).

Stevens, nice guy, bad coach. Players took advantage of him, period. So the change from Stevens to Laviolette was all about conditioning? Well, considering that the result of a team who got well conditioned going into last years playoffs was a long run, this year they barely even made it out of the first round.


Quote:
As for trading Carter, and not missing his 35 goals...that is just absurd. Philly was 3rd in goals for this year. If you remove his goals, they drop to 18th. If goaltending doesn't improve(and with Homer...that's not impossible), that means the team scores only 5 more goals, on the season, more than they allow. That's bad.
Once again, stats are obsolete in the playoffs. The Flyers got beat by a bunch of 3rd liners who wanted it more. You are not losing his goals, there will actually be a player who is going to play on the wing with Giroux and JvR. Goals scored and goals scored against are a fine line, I will give up the goals in they can cut down on the goals scored against(aka-goalie).


Quote:
And finally, the growing list of players who require surgery indicates that the problem is very much physical. It's likely mental as well, physical fatigue and frustration takes a mental toll. We can't measure or know what the players are thinking though, so I'm going to trust the injury list more than internet assumptions.

Sorry, not buying it, teams/guys play through injury. Look at Pronger last year. Problem is this team lost its identity and got outworked, outskated, pushed around, abused, intimidated, and swept by the Bruins. They have guys injured, etc, as did Buffalo, not like other teams do not experience and do not overcome the adversity.

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