Are you trying to make it sound like AK is/was a hard worker here? I personally saw some fight in Pouliot, more so than in a few veterans who got the pass from the coach.
You're bringing up a pretty good point here, which goes back to coaching... but how dare us question Martin!?!
Except Gomez, , nice try, and even then. And the day Pouliot earns a 7.3M contract and actually does something (like having done it it the past) is the day he will earn some passes for being a lazy ass. Sucks, but that's how life works, always has, always will.
As for Martin, please, we got in the playoffs and a game 7 overtime because of him otherwise the season would have been a disaster. And he has developed the kids admirably this year.
Okay, so my question is, why did the coach, who's so godawful with young players, relegate 24-year-old Pouliot to the fourth line then the pressbox... but systematically played 22-year-old Pacioretty on the top-6?
The answer is actually: MaxPac can handle it, Pouliot can't. It's got nothing to do with the coach somehow favoring "veterans" for no good reason, something he did not actually do.
Martin is actually pretty damned predictable in his personnel management, largely because he's so logical and deliberate about it. I praised it last year despite complaining about his system, and he hasn't changed. He experiments to figure out what each of his guys can and can't handle, then puts them in a position to succeed by handing them responsibilities they can handle. Young players will occasionally be handed greater duties that they can deal with as a learning experience, and gradually be brought up the depth chart as they progress. Happened with Eller. Happened with Pacioretty. Happened with Desharnais. Happened with Subban, though it wasn't very "gradual". Expect to see it happen with Weber next year.
If Pouliot wants top-6 icetime in the NHL he needs to improve his overall game, especially his defense. This is not a Jacques-Martinism. Virtually everyone in the league plays power-on-power now; you can't afford your top-6 lines to have a defensive liability on them, because they're no longer facing "defensive" third-liners that couldn't exploit the weakness -- they're facing strong overall hockey players that can both attack and defend.
We should all pretend that he was drafted 200th overall
That's a good policy. He's not the only player facing high expectations due to his drafting rank and what people think a player drafted there should look like (Andrei Kostitsyn comes to mind).
martin's line of thinking when he's developing players is rather simple: "don't **** up". focus on being defensively responsible first. that, and he shelters the rookies with soft minutes against comparable matchups.
i think it's worked on eller. DD, well, i think he already was defensively responsible when he came here and he's slowly been pushing him toward harder minutes and last i checked, it seemed to have worked.
i think he's softer on vets because he thinks, and probably rightfully so, that they are both already set in their ways and that they are mature enough to know how to adapt.
that said, pouliot has refused to learn from his mistakes, lazy hook here, lazy hook there, little bit of floating. being demoted from line to line hasn't sent him the message. that last penalty he got was the straw that broke the camel's back. it was the dumbest, worst kind of penalty he could have taken and he rightfully got benched.
that's the kind of **** he can learn from and not repeat again. maybe he needs a mentor, maybe someone like Darche, or a consistent center like Desharnais could help him or maybe even a short trip to hamilton would help who knows, but i refuse to give up on him. the way i see it, it's just his attitude that needs adjustment.
even if he stays his lazy, down on himself third line player, it's still a guaranteed 15 goals with a ceiling that's much higher than that.
kid's ****ing talented and he's got the body to be a very successful player.
Benny is a wicked hockey player with good size and great skill, but he needs to work on his defensive game and work ethics. He needs to be a better skater with more speed and more endurance. He also need significant icetime on the 1st or 2nd line....keeping him on the 3rd or 4th lines with no other offensive players isn't going to help him at all. He'd be better off back in Hamilton playing on the top line...like Pacioretty.
Now, since Pacioretty got injured....it remains to be seen if he'll be the same player he was before his injury. SO...until we find out how Patches heals and plays next season, we need to keep Pouliot around just in case we need another winger for the 1st or 2nd lines.
We need to keep this young kind in the organization until we've exhausted all options with him. He's too much of a talent to trade away or let walk away. We need to give him every chance we can before cutting him loose.
I truly would. After all, they did it for 5 years with AK and listening to some here, it has worked! Really, what do they have to lose? Games? See the comment above. I truly believe that if you want to give the guy a chance in your organization, there are no ifs and buts about it, you have to play him in a way where he'll regain his confidence, and that is in an offensive, top 6 role for a long time.
AK at least competes most nights, he leads the team in hits and he has improved a lot in the last year defensively. Pouliot is ultra steaky, he's fine when things are going well, but when they aren't he is a liability.
Except Gomez, , nice try, and even then. And the day Pouliot earns a 7.3M contract and actually does something (like having done it it the past) is the day he will earn some passes for being a lazy ass. Sucks, but that's how life works, always has, always will.
As for Martin, please, we got in the playoffs and a game 7 overtime because of him otherwise the season would have been a disaster. And he has developed the kids admirably this year.
Haters gonna hate!
Meanwhile, Sean Bergenheim earns his $700,000 salary, takes 8 minutes in PO penalties (compared to Pouliot's 7), plays around 15 minutes per PO game (compared to Pouliot's 5 or 6) and will help the Lightning as they play the Bruins.
Think Bergenheim would have gotten the same passes from JM after his less than stellar regular season?
Coaches matter with regard to motivating their players to get the most our of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan
Okay, so my question is, why did the coach, who's so godawful with young players, relegate 24-year-old Pouliot to the fourth line then the pressbox... but systematically played 22-year-old Pacioretty on the top-6?
The answer is actually: MaxPac can handle it, Pouliot can't. It's got nothing to do with the coach somehow favoring "veterans" for no good reason, something he did not actually do.
Martin is actually pretty damned predictable in his personnel management, largely because he's so logical and deliberate about it. I praised it last year despite complaining about his system, and he hasn't changed. He experiments to figure out what each of his guys can and can't handle, then puts them in a position to succeed by handing them responsibilities they can handle. Young players will occasionally be handed greater duties that they can deal with as a learning experience, and gradually be brought up the depth chart as they progress. Happened with Eller. Happened with Pacioretty. Happened with Desharnais. Happened with Subban, though it wasn't very "gradual". Expect to see it happen with Weber next year.
If Pouliot wants top-6 icetime in the NHL he needs to improve his overall game, especially his defense. This is not a Jacques-Martinism. Virtually everyone in the league plays power-on-power now; you can't afford your top-6 lines to have a defensive liability on them, because they're no longer facing "defensive" third-liners that couldn't exploit the weakness -- they're facing strong overall hockey players that can both attack and defend.
And therein lies the problem with Jacques Martin. He fails to grasp the concept that a coach is responsible for ALL of his players on the roster.
A one size fits all approach is a gateway to failure. Different players respond to different coaching styles. What motivates one player is demotivational to another. Benching Pouliot for a single mistake gradually destroyed his confidence. This happened all season long. And no one will argue that we could have used a confident and productive Pouliot in the playoffs.
O'Byrne faced the same wrath and punishment. Make a mistake....benched and sent to the press box (when we could have used a physical DMan against Philly last year in the ECF).
If Markov and Gorges would have been healthy, we would have seen Subban sitting in the press box as Martin showed he was on a short leash. The only reason Subban played was the team did not have anyone else to play.
Eller has a huge upside yet he was relegated to less than 10 minutes of ice time, slowing his development. Same for Desharnais who game after game showed that his line with White and Pouliot could score goals and play an aggressive forecheck in the neutral zone that resulted in turnovers. Yet DD only got a little more than 6 or 7 minutes of ice time during the regular season.
Pacioretty had already called out JM in the media. Yes, when he came here, he started scoring immediately. Had he not, he would have faced the same situation as Pouliot, playing junk minutes on plugger lines and sitting on the bench watching Moen flub another pass from Gomez.
Pouliot is just another symptom of what really ails Montreal with Martin as coach.
Last edited by PyrettaBlaze: 05-11-2011 at 11:28 AM.
And therein lies the problem with Jacques Martin. He fails to grasp the concept that a coach is responsible for ALL of his players on the roster.
What do you think he should've done with Pouliot then? Play him on the top-6, where the matchups would have:
- make him produce less because he is faced with better forwards and defensemen
- hamper his line defensively because he's not only much too aggressive he doesn't really have the defensive positioning game to play against top players
- worn him down
- made him look bad as a result of the above?
People really need to realize that playing in the top-6 is in no way a cushy opportunity that allows a player with offensive skills to strut their stuff. If that opportunity exists, it's only on the power play. In the modern NHL, a top-6 role is a serious responsibility that requires two-way ability.
In no way was Pouliot benched for "a single mistake". It was an accumulation. Pouliot's icetime was gradually curtailed because he was not only not getting the job done, but getting worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab
If Markov and Gorges would have been healthy, we would have seen Subban sitting in the press box as Martin showed he was on a short leash. The only reason Subban played was the team did not have anyone else to play.
I don't believe that at all. There is no way to argue this considering that by the end of the season Martin was using Subban systematically as the first pairing -- when the option of reuniting Hamrlik and Spacek, who had been effective in this role
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab
Eller has a huge upside yet he was relegated to less than 10 minutes of ice time, slowing his development. Same for Desharnais who game after game showed that his line with White and Pouliot could score goals and play an aggressive forecheck in the neutral zone that resulted in turnovers. Yet DD only got a little more than 6 or 7 minutes of ice time during the regular season.
Eller was given increasing amounts of icetime in increasingly tougher situations as he developped. It was the same approach used to bring up Plekanec, and that worked quite nicely, thank you very much. Not everyone is Sidney Crosby. Eller is going to be an important piece on a strong NHL club at the tender age of 22. That's really very young.
DD averaged 10 minutes a game in the regular season and, most importantly, almost two minutes a game of power play time. He was not given a raw deal in any way, shape, or form. Considering that he needed to be sheltered, Martin actually went out of his way to give him opportunities -- but DD earned them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab
Pacioretty had already called out JM in the media. Yes, when he came here, he started scoring immediately. Had he not, he would have faced the same situation as Pouliot, playing junk minutes on plugger lines and sitting on the bench watching Moen flub another pass from Gomez.
Don't you think that, if anything, MaxPac actually calling out his coach wouldn't normally have led him to getting less opportunity, rather than more?
Look, I think Martin can be criticized for his handling of Sergei (but not his utilization) and he completely borked Latendresse, too. But when you say that this year he has been holding back the kids, frankly, you're imagining justifications to make it stick. You're assuming that Markov and Gorges would have put Subban in the pressbox and that Martin actually cares enough about a kid talking to the media to play him more (yet proved mysteriously immune to all the calls demanding he play DD more). It just doesn't add up.
Montreal played what, four, five rookies on a semi-regular basis? White, DD, Eller, Subban, and Weber? On a 23-man roster, that is a huge number. And that doesn't even factor in MaxPac. That's a lot of NHL icetime devoted to the kids.
I would love to see this kid break out with a 30 goal 70+ point campaign. I see it in him, I feel he can do it but his lack of intensity at times is hurting him. I think he will be back next season and it will be the make it or break it season, at least as a Hab, if not potentially for his career.
I would love to see this kid break out with a 30 goal 70+ point campaign. I see it in him, I feel he can do it but his lack of intensity at times is hurting him. I think he will be back next season and it will be the make it or break it season, at least as a Hab, if not potentially for his career.
You don't put up 70 points showing up for 25-30 games a yaer.
For the 100th time, Pouliot just cant work in restraint space, his puck protection stinks and he cant even cycle the puck like a Pro.. He doesnt react well when pressured by his opponents.. The guy is too easy to play against to be an effective bottom line player and not skilled enough to play on our top lines... Some people get excited easily, the kid is tall but not big, he clearly lacks strength and stamina.. Pouliot showed that he had some decent hands at time but this is certainly not enough to get overly excited like some of you are, the kid need space and time to react and make a play, so he will look decent at times against poor opposition but as soon as it gets tighter, tougher and more defensively battled, he desapear. The kid has never teared up the OHL, the Wild gave up on him so maybe its time for some of you to realize this kid is destined to bust..
Last edited by NewHabsEra: 05-10-2011 at 03:25 PM.
I think the Gauthier will bring him back, maybe a 1 year deal and take it from there unless there is a team out there willing to trade something decent for him then yes trade him
They gave him that this year with a one year deal. He is as good as gone.
They gave him that this year with a one year deal. He is as good as gone.
Yea he's an Rfa so no he's not gone.. Where had the knowledge gone on these boards?
He'll be back at the beginning of the year with most probably the same contract. Maybe he'll be traded during the season but who knows. Let's hope he can finally put on some weight because I strongly believe that's his biggest problem along with mental toughness.
Yea he's an Rfa so no he's not gone.. Where had the knowledge gone on these boards?
He'll be back at the beginning of the year with most probably the same contract. Maybe he'll be traded during the season but who knows. Let's hope he can finally put on some weight because I strongly believe that's his biggest problem along with mental toughness.
In gone i mean Traded. In Traded i mean in a package for a better 1rst round pick. Understand now ?
It's probably has been said already, didn't read the whole thread....but I'm going with a misunderstood flop. Will clearly never achieve the potential they thought he had. Clearly not worth of a 4th overall pick, surely on pure talent, clearly not on dedication and heart.
Yet, clearly, it's obvious the kid lacks the confidence he needs to be more effective. When he keeps fumbling the puck like he does, it's a sign. But I clearly see the same type of path Lats was before he was traded. I don't believe both guys are hitting machines, yet, it seems as they are asked to do so when it's not their game. So that's my "misunderstood" part....but while there's a lot of blame on his very own shoulders, I hate the "You make a mistake, you sit for the rest of the game" syndrom....Tough to get that confidence back.
In gone i mean Traded. In Traded i mean in a package for a better 1rst round pick. Understand now ?
The only way we can put him in a package for a better 1st round pick is if we trade our 17th overall pick and him for maybe the 14th pick. He won't net much more than that.
At this point, he's not worth trading imo. The result will be another Ryan O'Byrne type situation.
For the 100th time, Pouliot just cant work in restraint space, his puck protection stinks and he cant even cycle the puck like a Pro.. He doesnt react well when pressured by his opponents.. The guy is too easy to play against to be an effective bottom line player and not skilled enough to play on our top lines... Some people get excited easily, the kid is tall but not big, he clearly lacks strength and stamina.. Pouliot showed that he had some decent hands at time but this is certainly not enough to get overly excited like some of you are, the kid need space and time to react and make a play, so he will look decent at times against poor opposition but as soon as it gets tighter, tougher and more defensively battled, he desapear. The kid has never teared up the OHL, the Wild gave up on him so maybe its time for some of you to realize this kid is destined to bust..
You nailed it. He definitely has skill. Nobody is questioning that. He has a crazy shot, slick hands. But he lacks so many key pieces to compete as a TEAM player, I just don't think he will ever bring it all together.
Your point about him not cycling is perfect. I have never seen this kid cycle. With his size, he should be able to dominate the half boards. Why do you think his goals all come from 50 feet out on the rush? He seems to have no desire to fine tune his game and become a team player.
The only way we can put him in a package for a better 1st round pick is if we trade our 17th overall pick and him for maybe the 14th pick. He won't net much more than that.
At this point, he's not worth trading imo. The result will be another Ryan O'Byrne type situation.
Please, He had his chance with the Wild. He came to the Habs, was not good, can't handle the pressure and i would like to give that spot to a UFA or Paloosh. And i was thinking a package of Pouliot+1rst+Weber to get close to the top 10.
AK will never bring it all together for what people want of him. But that doesn't mean neither can't be useful.
I'd take a Pouliot on the 3rd and 4th lines for $1mish if he can pot 10-15 goals a year. Not every person has to be a Sidney Crosby.
He might be a flop but he still has value imo.
Pouliot's low cap definitely gives him value.
I'm not saying he has to be Sideny Crosby. At all. Complete opposite really. I want to see him develop the simple parts of his game. Cycling, board work, discipline. I just find he is way too one dimensional. There are so many faults in his game that are really easy to fix with a little effort.
Please, He had his chance with the Wild. He came to the Habs, was not good, can't handle the pressure and i would like to give that spot to a UFA or Paloosh. And i was thinking a package of Pouliot+1rst+Weber to get close to the top 10.
Giving up 2 NHL players + 1st round pick to get a top 10 pick that might not even pan out is bad asset management.
, nice try, and even then. And the day Pouliot earns a 7.3M contract and actually does something (like having done it it the past) is the day he will earn some passes for being a lazy ass. Sucks, but that's how life works, always has, always will.
smiley.
