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If You Had to Choose?

View Poll Results: Who is should be held accountable?
Fire the Coach, he is a bum who overworked the crew. 1 1.92%
Send a message, do not resign Leino, move one of Carter or Richards or Hartnell. 21 40.38%
Strip the C off Richards, and move Carter or Hartnell. 13 25.00%
Do nothing, everything is fine, just let them talk it out. 13 25.00%
Fire the Coach and GM, the core needs to stay intact. 4 7.69%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-10-2011, 03:17 PM
  #76
Swiper the Fox
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
How did the "core" do for you in the 2nd half of the season?
your vision is stuck on the present
so, yesterday(the first half) was great, and today(2nd half and playoffs) was not.

just like saying Kesler is better player thanCarter
because (today) he is still in the playoffs, and carter is not

The Flyers finished with a 47-23-12 record for 106 points
(provided they would have played alittle better down the stretch, they would have had more points)

this is the same 'core' of players and they have shown they can play at that level...........

you don't break up a team because, they lost motivation or lost confidence in their goaltending down the stretch........
actually, getting a bonafide goaltender in the offseason will only motivate them more to excel

but, I guess we should always just look at NOW , see who is still playing and base our opinion on the teams that are left in the running, and players producing points as our factors on how to build a team

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05-10-2011, 03:22 PM
  #77
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Ummmm..seems to me like these teams do not have problems making it back to the Stanley Cup in repeat years and continued success. Heck, look to the Flyers of the 1980's, they may long runs every year practically and it never stopped them.
Did you think I wasn't acknowledging that those were great teams?

I showed you what their season were like in the years before they won championships... Their management didn't turn their backs on the young cores even after disappointing results.

You picked the best teams from the last couple generations; if you want to compare this Flyers team to them, it's a little unfair. You have made it clear you're not comfortable with the team's core and would like a fresh start. Imagine what would have happened in Long Island, Edmonton, Detroit and Denver had their management believed as you do.

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05-10-2011, 03:22 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Ummmm..seems to me like these teams do not have problems making it back to the Stanley Cup in repeat years and continued success. Heck, look to the Flyers of the 1980's, they may long runs every year practically and it never stopped them.
Due to the increased parity fostered in the cap era, dynasties are very difficult to establish. How many back-to-back Cup winner have there been recently?

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05-10-2011, 03:27 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
What aspect of Carter's game doesn't fit on this team? Do tell.

He is playing "out of position" because the players in front of him have had more success at center.
As a wing he lacks the physical ability to dig on the boards and be a physical player.

He tendency to bring the puck up the ice is predictable, so d-men force him wide, at which time with no traffic on net he takes a poor angle shot resulting in a forced turnover and no sustained offensive zone time and also poor line changes.

He has done little to change up this part of the game for a team who needs to have a more sustained cycle time and offensive pressure to have success grinding teams down.

He is a horrible passer off of the wing, or at center, and lacks any form of a slapshot.

He has been taken off of the PK, so his value and need there has been downgraded.

And with his size and physical ability never looks to finish a hit, his physical game may actually be in the minus range. He makes $5.272mill next year and this team needs a goalie. Whew, enough?

And JvR's taking his game to the next level has exposed Carter as a player who just does not use his tools, he relies on the fans supporting him because he puts in 35 goals, and people buy his jersey.

Quote:
If you remove Carter's 35 goals, the team drops from 3rd to 18th in Goals For. You think that won't affect how many games the team wins?

Once again, someone will replace him on the RW, expect JvR's production to increase as well as JvR. You are not losing 35 goals, whomever replaces him may score 20 in which case it is only a -15, plus expect JvR to put in say five more, so a -10. Is it really that big of an issue? Ten goals. Really.

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05-10-2011, 03:29 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Due to the increased parity fostered in the cap era, dynasties are very difficult to establish. How many back-to-back Cup winner have there been recently?
We are talking about the ability to make it back to the finals and not have excuses such as they were physically exhausted. This has nothing to do with a cap, it has everything to do with excuses.

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05-10-2011, 03:31 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Swiper the Fox View Post
your vision is stuck on the present
so, yesterday(the first half) was great, and today(2nd half and playoffs) was not.

just like saying Kesler is better player thanCarter
because (today) he is still in the playoffs, and carter is not

The Flyers finished with a 47-23-12 record for 106 points
(provided they would have played alittle better down the stretch, they would have had more points)

this is the same 'core' of players and they have shown they can play at that level...........

you don't break up a team because, they lost motivation or lost confidence in their goaltending down the stretch........
actually, getting a bonafide goaltender in the offseason will only motivate them more to excel

but, I guess we should always just look at NOW , see who is still playing and base our opinion on the teams that are left in the running, and players producing points as our factors on how to build a team


No Carter is not as good of a player because Kesler wears his heart on his sleeve and when he is not scoring he is blocking shots, and doing the little things.

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Old
05-10-2011, 03:39 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
He is playing "out of position" because the players in front of him have had more success at center.
As a wing he lacks the physical ability to dig on the boards and be a physical player.

He tendency to bring the puck up the ice is predictable, so d-men force him wide, at which time with no traffic on net he takes a poor angle shot resulting in a forced turnover and no sustained offensive zone time and also poor line changes.

He has done little to change up this part of the game for a team who needs to have a more sustained cycle time and offensive pressure to have success grinding teams down.


He is a horrible passer off of the wing, or at center, and lacks any form of a slapshot.

He has been taken off of the PK, so his value and need there has been downgraded.

And with his size and physical ability never looks to finish a hit, his physical game may actually be in the minus range. He makes $5.272mill next year and this team needs a goalie. Whew, enough?

And JvR's taking his game to the next level has exposed Carter as a player who just does not use his tools, he relies on the fans supporting him because he puts in 35 goals, and people buy his jersey.




Once again, someone will replace him on the RW, expect JvR's production to increase as well as JvR. You are not losing 35 goals, whomever replaces him may score 20 in which case it is only a -15, plus expect JvR to put in say five more, so a -10. Is it really that big of an issue? Ten goals. Really.
Ah. Interesting. So, because our 35 goal scorer isn't a grinder, he should be traded? That doesn't make sense. As for him not playing physically, I suspect you only believe that because your irrational hatred prevents you from seeing how he actually plays. Having a rational discussion about Carter with you is similar to trying to have a rational discussion about the existence of Israel with a leader of Hamas. In both cases, the opinion is "IT MUST GO AWAY." We get it. You don't like Carter, and dislike him so much that you would like to hurt the team to dispose of him.


For the second part:

This assumption is terrible. The assumption was that Hartnell would replace Knuble, and he didn't. Some people assumed Zherdev would replace Gagne, and he didn't. Automatically assuming that JVR will replace Carter is inane, and also isn't guaranteed. On the defensive side, JVR doesn't replace Carter, and he also doesn't take faceoffs. JVR has overall been lessphysical than Carter. Again, you think Carter doesn't use his tools because your strange, obsessive hatred blinds you to anything good he does.

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Old
05-10-2011, 03:40 PM
  #83
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We are talking about the ability to make it back to the finals and not have excuses such as they were physically exhausted. This has nothing to do with a cap, it has everything to do with excuses.

This has nothing to do with excuses, it has everything to do with reasons.

You believe the team should go 98-0, don't you? You've made it abundantly clear that your expectations are laughably absurd.

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05-10-2011, 03:41 PM
  #84
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No Carter is not as good of a player because Kesler wears his heart on his sleeve and when he is not scoring he is blocking shots, and doing the little things.
Carter was 5th on the team in blocked shots amongst forwards... and he wasn't even killing penalties. Giroux only had 3 more this year. He was the best faceoff guy on our team... etc. Very good defensive player...

Yeah, Carter doesn't do little things... I mean, come on man, at least try to have some semblance of reality behind the vomit you spew.

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05-10-2011, 03:45 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
No Carter is not as good of a player because Kesler wears his heart on his sleeve and when he is not scoring he is blocking shots, and doing the little things.
you are only saying this because of how he is playing TODAY

had Hawks beaten the Canucks this year (since it was anyone's game being it went to game 7 and Overtime ) , would you still be saying the same thing ? No
you would be drawning comparisons of carter with someone else, still in the playoffs trying to say 'this guy has more heart and desire " and is a better player than him


that's crazy talk

this team played very well in the first half ( 2/3 ) of the season and domin ated the league
the team/core doesn't need changing
this was a goalie cluster***** that caused the poor 1/3 of season/playoffs
not the 'core' players

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05-10-2011, 05:18 PM
  #86
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No Carter is not as good of a player because Kesler wears his heart on his sleeve and when he is not scoring he is blocking shots, and doing the little things.
This week, he is. Where has he been since he entered the league?

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05-10-2011, 05:41 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
1 hour ago euroflyers Teemu H
"That's what pisses me off the most. We weren't even close. There was no effort which I find unbelievable." - Timonen
That's more of an indictment on Richards than Pannachio can muster, that's for sure.

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05-10-2011, 05:44 PM
  #88
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That's more of an indictment on Richards than Pannachio can muster, that's for sure.
What could possibly make you think he's condemning Richards?

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05-10-2011, 05:47 PM
  #89
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I had to go with do nothing, though there are move that need to be made none of the available options are ones that I would want to do.

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05-10-2011, 08:13 PM
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People have to face the reality that Carter will not be traded. #1 on the team in goals this year and he has a pretty unfriendly contract when it comes to trading, since he is signed for so long.

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05-10-2011, 08:55 PM
  #91
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People have to face the reality that Carter will not be traded. #1 on the team in goals this year and he has a pretty unfriendly contract when it comes to trading, since he is signed for so long.
I don't think he should or will be traded, but if Gomez and his awful contract can be moved I think there is hope that any contract can be moved.

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05-10-2011, 09:30 PM
  #92
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I'll choose none of those options.

If we can pull off getting Nabby for almost nothing, we can re-sign Leino for 2.5M, Powe for 800K, Nodl for 900K, keep Versteeg and Carle. With the cap going up about 3M, we have just over a million left in cap hits if Nabby's contract is the same price when we get him. Start off the season with healthy players. Versteeg played a hernia. I think Leino still had hip problems. Nodl has a concussion but since it's not that severe from what I'm hearing, he will probably be back and Powe is still a very useful PKer. I think we have most of the right pieces, it was just executed poorly by a bit of bad coaching, injuries and being worn out.

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05-11-2011, 07:08 AM
  #93
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I don't think he should or will be traded, but if Gomez and his awful contract can be moved I think there is hope that any contract can be moved.
Hmmm, interesting point, it did indeed seem like Gomez would never be moved.

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05-11-2011, 08:56 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Ah. Interesting. So, because our 35 goal scorer isn't a grinder, he should be traded? That doesn't make sense. As for him not playing physically, I suspect you only believe that because your irrational hatred prevents you from seeing how he actually plays. Having a rational discussion about Carter with you is similar to trying to have a rational discussion about the existence of Israel with a leader of Hamas. In both cases, the opinion is "IT MUST GO AWAY." We get it. You don't like Carter, and dislike him so much that you would like to hurt the team to dispose of him.

This team has skill, has some players who can score, it lacks the ability to ratchet up the compete level and physical game. It is your opinion that the loss of Carter would hinder this team from getting better. My point is that they can get a high value in return, make space for a goalie which will improve an area of need. Yes, they would miss Carter and his goal scoring prowess, but it would not be insurmountable challenge. I look at a team who beat the Flyers and they won because the players did all the little things and had solid goaltending.

You take this very personally, this is not a personal opinion of my like/dislike for Carter as a person, I just feel he is overrated by our fans in the value to the team. He has the most tradeable contract and value and when we have a team who lacks prospects and draft picks Carter in one move could help significantly in the right deal and open up the space to get a legit #1 goalie(Bryzgalov). It is a business decision, not personal. It is my personal opinion that this team has had success in the past without Carter and they could have continued success in the future without him and at the same time replenish some glaring needs in the organization.

Quote:
For the second part:

This assumption is terrible. The assumption was that Hartnell would replace Knuble, and he didn't. Some people assumed Zherdev would replace Gagne, and he didn't. Automatically assuming that JVR will replace Carter is inane, and also isn't guaranteed. On the defensive side, JVR doesn't replace Carter, and he also doesn't take faceoffs. JVR has overall been lessphysical than Carter. Again, you think Carter doesn't use his tools because your strange, obsessive hatred blinds you to anything good he does.
I am all for moving Hartnell at this time too. Or at least make a significant move(aka-Carter) and put him on notice that either he steps up his offseason program(hit the gym fattie, and get some skating lessons) or he can suffer some time in the pressbox. You have to have confidence that the guys who are next in line will step up. Giroux has been taking faceoffs over Carter, so this value is limited.

I have also suggested signing Konopka who is a significant improvement in the faceoff department for defensive zone faceoffs. This is about getting Giroux and JvR to take their game to the next level, people thought JvR was a bust and Giroux would never be at this place in his game so soon. Defense is a team game, look at the HBL line as a prime example. Briere is a horrible defensive center, but when the line clicks and plays as a unit they are pretty good at both ends of the ice.


And I have NEVER seen Carter dominate a playoff game like JvR did in game 2. I will bet you right now that come next season that is the type of player you are going to see, and if you look at his stats he has been one of the team leaders in shot AND hits in the palyoffs.

And the regular season, JvR had 107 hits but amped it up more during the second half of the season. Carter was credited with 65 hits in 80 games. Less than one per game, for a guy with the same size and skill and Carter is also a better skater at this time, although JvR showed the drive to the net that I only wish Carter would try instead of getting pushed wide and shooting the crap angle shots.

It is the game I dislike, not the person. And at the crossroads, it may be time to part ways and get some fresh blood.

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05-11-2011, 09:00 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
This has nothing to do with excuses, it has everything to do with reasons.

You believe the team should go 98-0, don't you? You've made it abundantly clear that your expectations are laughably absurd.

Yes, totally absurd to expect a team to not have a significant drop in effort when it matters the most in the 5th year in this cores drive for the Cup.


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05-11-2011, 09:03 AM
  #96
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Carter was 5th on the team in blocked shots amongst forwards... and he wasn't even killing penalties. Giroux only had 3 more this year. He was the best faceoff guy on our team... etc. Very good defensive player...

Yeah, Carter doesn't do little things... I mean, come on man, at least try to have some semblance of reality behind the vomit you spew.
I can pay Konopka 1/5th the money to block shots and take faceoffs.

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05-11-2011, 09:17 AM
  #97
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I can pay Konopka 1/5th the money to block shots and take faceoffs.
Sure, but you just made yet another completely BS statement about Jeff Carter. You're like a Republican candidate...

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05-11-2011, 09:25 AM
  #98
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you are only saying this because of how he is playing TODAY

had Hawks beaten the Canucks this year (since it was anyone's game being it went to game 7 and Overtime ) , would you still be saying the same thing ? No
you would be drawning comparisons of carter with someone else, still in the playoffs trying to say 'this guy has more heart and desire " and is a better player than him


that's crazy talk

this team played very well in the first half ( 2/3 ) of the season and domin ated the league
the team/core doesn't need changing
this was a goalie cluster***** that caused the poor 1/3 of season/playoffs
not the 'core' players

The team does need change. They need a goalie. And all I care about is what is a player doing today and do they have the capacity to raise their level when it matters the most. Kesler is doing that, he is playing like I wish Mike Richards would get back to doing. Tough, gritty, hard-nosed player, who can provide the spark and drive to make this team win.

We differ on some things, but agree that we need a goalie. Difference is I see the disconnect with this team. There is a reason why Pronger and Timonen are pissed and I can only hope a lot of it comes out in the wash.

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05-11-2011, 09:27 AM
  #99
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Sure, but you just made yet another completely BS statement about Jeff Carter. You're like a Republican candidate...
What, that I do not see the player that you see? Maybe we just have different views on what our expectations for the palyers are amd what we see them do. We all know Carter does not hit, does not play physical, and when the games get tight disappears. That is proven with the eye test and the facts on the stat sheet everyone wants to refer to.

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05-11-2011, 09:30 AM
  #100
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People have to face the reality that Carter will not be traded. #1 on the team in goals this year and he has a pretty unfriendly contract when it comes to trading, since he is signed for so long.
SO, hold here. Guy is the King Of Sea Isle, golden boy in Philly. Leading goals scorer who everyone slobbers over, but yet a 10 year contract for the next coming is a "unfriendly contract" for trading??????? So is it the player who is overrated or the contract?

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