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Old
05-12-2011, 11:54 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JABEE View Post
I think it's 35 by July 1st, because remember Pronger had had a year left on his contract. So by the time the extension kicked in on July 1st of the following year he was 35.
It's June 30th of the year in which the contract takes effect. So for Pronger it was June 30th the year AFTER he signed it (because he still had 1 year on his existing deal). For anyone we sign this year it will be June 30th of this year because he is a FA signing for this year.

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05-12-2011, 12:11 PM
  #77
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If I was a Flyers fan, I wouldn't be so hyped about Snider's comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snider
He paused.

“So either one of the goalies we have has to step up in training camp, or we have to make improvements to make sure it happens. But we are NEVER going to go through the goalie issues we’ve gone through in the last couple of years again.”
The fact that he says "one of the goalies we have has to step up in training camp" more less to me, says he would be fine with what you guys have "if they step up in training camp" which I believe Bob this past year but that didn't solve your problems.

Even though Bob was good enough to be a starter this year, I think it was a mistake giving him the reigns given that you guys were truly a contender. I think it would be a mistake giving him the reigns next year. I'd try to bring in a veteran for 1 year if not two and give him some seasoning and experience without the pressure of the playoffs. Most goalies that succeed in the league have been brought in slowly.

Lets compare Montreal's two young goalies. Price is obviously the bigger prospect but he was given the reigns twice in the past and struggled at times. Halak was with the organization as a backup for like 4 years and perfomed suberbly, he get getting thrown to the side but he was young, so he kept working and look how he's performed in the playoffs.

Price seems to be finally maturing after 4 seasons but Halak has already had a more impressive playoff run than Price partially imo because he was brought in slowly.

If I was the Flyers, I'd be wanting to take the same route with Bob, even though he's probably ready to play 60 games, only let him play 25 and allow him to adjust to the NHL, mature mentally and in 2 years give him the reigns.

I'd be wary of signing Vokoun though. He may be a bonafide #1 goalie but he has 11 playoff games experience. As a contender, you guys want a guy with playoff experience imo, unfortunately there aren't many of those guys. I'd seriously consider Rolloson for 1 year even though he's getting really old. I think Tampa seriously considers going long term this summer in net, or at least they should start thinking long term in net.

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05-12-2011, 12:13 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I'm nitpicking but Maroon wasn't a ball hockey player, he was a roller hockey player haha.
So was JvR.

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05-12-2011, 12:35 PM
  #79
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Some fans/writers actually truely DONT want a goalie.

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...ilya-bryzgalov

Remember, most these people are HUGE Boucher fans. Its some good work looking the information up though.

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05-12-2011, 12:48 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Some fans/writers actually truely DONT want a goalie.

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...ilya-bryzgalov

Remember, most these people are HUGE Boucher fans. Its some good work looking the information up though.
so he thinks Boucher is a better option then Bryzgalov and Vokoun? Guess he recently paid his Brian Boucher fan club dues.

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05-12-2011, 12:50 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
so he thinks Boucher is a better option then Bryzgalov and Vokoun? Guess he recently paid his Brian Boucher fan club dues.
what he is saying is, the difference between say a Boucher/Bob and Vokoun is a total of 10 goals. What I dont agree with (as you will see if you look a their comments sections) is the methods they use. Taking the career sv% of goalies and using that isnt an effective way of trying to predict future sv% on different teams.

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05-12-2011, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
what he is saying is, the difference between say a Boucher/Bob and Vokoun is a total of 10 goals. What I dont agree with (as you will see if you look a their comments sections) is the methods they use. Taking the career sv% of goalies and using that isnt an effective way of trying to predict future sv% on different teams.
hes taking the save percentage and shots faced this year and using that to show what would happen next season. I mean how can you even do that. The save percentes of the goalies this year will have zero impact on what happens next season with who we have in goal.
Say we sign Vokoun, you mean to tell me projecting his stats from the 2010/11 season is relivant to the 11/12 season with a much better team in front of him?
What a load of crap. Did he see that Florida team? Some AHL teams could beat Florida without him in goal.

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05-12-2011, 01:08 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
It's June 30th of the year in which the contract takes effect. So for Pronger it was June 30th the year AFTER he signed it (because he still had 1 year on his existing deal). For anyone we sign this year it will be June 30th of this year because he is a FA signing for this year.

This can be a little confusing. the CBA defines everything as "league year" meaning from July 1st to June 30th. The way the CBA reads for determining whether a contract is a "35+" contract or not is the players age on the June 30th PRIOR to the league year of the first year in which the new SPC begins. Thus, if Vokoun signs a contract that takes effect for the 2011/2012 season, his age for the contract is his age on June 30th, 2011, or 34 years old. NOT a 35+ contract.

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05-12-2011, 01:45 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
If I was a Flyers fan, I wouldn't be so hyped about Snider's comments



The fact that he says "one of the goalies we have has to step up in training camp" more less to me, says he would be fine with what you guys have "if they step up in training camp" which I believe Bob this past year but that didn't solve your problems..

Yeah I made the same point but..''who knows" and "we'll see how it plays out."



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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I'd seriously consider Rolloson for 1 year even though he's getting really old...
yeah well we could have made a stab for him a couple of times and the first time we didn't because of the cap situation and this year because the genius Holmgren felt Versteeg would put us over the top and two career backups and a rookie gave us a better chance....we saw how that played out.

Finally, the only thing that is really old has been saying that he is really old but yeah pass up on him enough and he does become really old. Our goaltending situation is also really old ..obviously.

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05-12-2011, 01:47 PM
  #85
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Good points on the goaltending situation..some already rehashed in the numerous goalie threads and some new insights.

Quote:
It has been rumored ever since last summer that Ed Snider has been urging Paul Holmgren to obtain an upgrade in goal. Salary cap issues and a desire not to remove significant pieces of the roster (beyond cap casualty Simon Gagne and role player Arron Asham) that brought the team to the Stanley Cup Final in 2010 precluded a move last summer and during the 2010-11 regular season.

With the ultimately disastrous goaltending carousel that Peter Laviolette employed in the playoffs this spring, the Flyers' president is no longer staying quiet in public about the need for better goaltending. In an interview with the Inquirer's Sam Carchidi, Snider said that he wants the goaltending issue resolved once and for all.

Last summer, there was a buyers' market for goaltenders. The available pool of players was less than spectacular and there really weren't too many teams looking for goalies. This year, there are more teams hunting for goaltending. Ilya Bryzgalov is going to command big money, whether he stays in Phoenix, signs elsewhere in the NHL or names his price to a willing KHL team. Tomas Vokoun will be a little more affordable but not much.

In making a cursory look around the NHL, I figure that as many as 10 teams other than the Flyers will be considering free agent goalies this summer. Most, however, will be looking for backups or split-time starters. Among the other teams in the league, I think the most intriguing situations are in Washington, Phoenix, Columbus and Colorado.

The Capitals have three promising young goalies in Michal Neuvirth (the emerging starter), Semyon Varlamov and Braden Holtby. All three have the potential to be long-term undisputed starting goalies in the NHL, and Neuvirth's play in the postseason was not why the Capitals got swept in the second round by Tampa Bay. But given the mounting pressure on the team to overcome its annual playoff swoons, would Washington swing for the fences with a win-now type of veteran goalie?

If Phoenix can't resign Bryzgalov -- which may have become more doable now that the team will be staying put -- they will still need to go get a starting goalie. In addition to Bryzgalov, backup keeper Jason Labarbera is also an impending unrestricted free agent.

In Colorado, I think it's crystal clear that the team needs an upgrade in goal over restricted free agent Brian Elliott and unrestricted free agent Peter Budaj. Over in Columbus, Mathieu Garon (who would be an ideal backup for a contending club with an undisputed number one goalie) is an unrestricted free agent. Steve Mason's salary jumps from $905,000 to $2.9 million next season, but can the Jackets rely on the erratic young goalie to be their full time starter?

Lastly, it will be interesting to see what the Devils do this offseason in terms of goaltending. Martin Brodeur is finally starting to look his age, and is entering the final season of his contract (and possibly his final NHL season). Veteran backup Johan Hedberg did a commendable job under brutal circumstances this past season but he's an unrestricted free agent and not a long-term solution. Jeff Frazee is in the farm system but more depth is needed.

I mentioned in previous blogs that I think young goalies Cory Schneider, Jonathan Bernier and Anders Lindback are all going to emerge as number one goalies in the NHL in the near future if they are traded from their current teams (where each of the three is stuck behind an accomplished veteran). I will also toss the names Jeremy Smith (stuck behind Pekka Rinne and Lindback) Eddie Lack (behind Roberto Luongo and Schneider) into the mix, because both young goaltenders also seem NHL ready.

The Devils are probably in better position right now than the Flyers to nab one of the younger goalies from another organization. The goalie could split time with the aging Brodeur next season and then emerge as a full-time number one goalie in 2012-13, with Frazee also making a push.

Personally speaking, I like Sergei Bobrovsky and think he will become an above-average NHL starting goalie. However, it's also my opinion that the upsides of all three among Schneider, Bernier and Lindback are higher than Bobrovsky's. That could simply be based on having seen Bobrovsky play more than the others, however. The more you see a player, especially a young goalie, the more you notice the flaws along with the strengths.

Regardless of the short-term and long-term decisions the Flyers make with their goaltenders, I just hope every possibility is considered carefully. Pressure from Ed Snider -- or the fan base -- to get Bryzgalov or Vokoun should not in and of itself be the deciding factor in the move that gets made.

If it were my choice to make today, I would go the veteran free agent route. That is because of the uncertainty with Chris Pronger's health and Kimmo Timonen seemingly getting worn down over this past season. A proven veteran starter can help cushion some of the impact if Pronger and/or Timonen are at less than peak form next season.

However, as a long-term move, the Flyers will need to identify a goalie of the future. Whether that's Bobrovsky, an NHL-ready young goalie from elsewhere or even Joacim Eriksson, Philly cannot afford to overlook the long-term picture in the interests of trying to win the Stanley Cup next season.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...nider/45/35813

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05-12-2011, 01:55 PM
  #86
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This year the Flyers had the best defense money could buy. It's more than a coincidence that as Meszaros was played more minutes, the defense got worse. Tampa thought he was ready for 1st-2nd pairing minutes and after that failed experiment, Yzerman's first move was dumping him here. The guy is fine on a third pairing on very good teams, but he's not leading any team anywhere playing in your top four. BTW how is Tampa doing without him?

This fact coupled with Matt Carle sucking leads to the conclusion that Patrick Roy in his prime could have been in goal and the Flyers still lose to the Bruins.

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05-12-2011, 01:56 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
what he is saying is, the difference between say a Boucher/Bob and Vokoun is a total of 10 goals. What I dont agree with (as you will see if you look a their comments sections) is the methods they use. Taking the career sv% of goalies and using that isnt an effective way of trying to predict future sv% on different teams.
Averaged out over a regular season, I have no doubt that the difference between Boucher/Bob and Vokoun is 10-20 regular season goals.

HOWEVER...

A) Save percentage is still a team statistic so it's not exactly a safe method of calculation. Vokoun is helped and hurt by his team in the save percentage department just like Boucher/Bob is helped here in some ways and hurt here in some ways in terms of save percentage. Does it all even out in the end? Who knows?

B) The 10-20 goal average is against season long competition, and as I've said before, the problem isn't the regular season. We can win that regardless. The problem is the playoffs when our guys aren't 100%. Do we have somebody in between the pipes to carry us through those lulls? The level of competition in the playoffs is an entirely different animal.

I will say though that I agree with the ending to an extent. Philadelphia does not need and has never needed a big name goaltender. The difference, even in the postseason, is not extremely considerable especially considering the value that you'd have to give up for a big name both in terms of assets and cap space. However, that doesn't mean goaltending is unimportant. You can't get away with playing Blair Betts as a top line center and expect your offense to be a top tier offense. Likewise you can't get away with a back-up goaltender being your starter and expect him to make the saves he's supposed to make. We don't need a big name, we need someone remotely competent and proven in a starter's role.

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05-12-2011, 01:58 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
This year the Flyers had the best defense money could buy. It's more than a coincidence that as Meszaros was played more minutes, the defense got worse. Tampa thought he was ready for 1st-2nd pairing minutes and after that failed experiment, Yzerman's first move was dumping him here. The guy is fine on a third pairing on very good teams, but he's not leading any team anywhere playing in your top four. BTW how is Tampa doing without him?

This fact coupled with Matt Carle sucking leads to the conclusion that Patrick Roy in his prime could have been in goal and the Flyers still lose to the Bruins.
The defense got worse because Pronger > Meszaros.

Don't rehash the debate about acquiring the "failures" of Meszaros and Carle from Tampa.

You're going to lose every time.

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05-12-2011, 02:20 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
This year the Flyers had the best defense money could buy. It's more than a coincidence that as Meszaros was played more minutes, the defense got worse. Tampa thought he was ready for 1st-2nd pairing minutes and after that failed experiment, Yzerman's first move was dumping him here. The guy is fine on a third pairing on very good teams, but he's not leading any team anywhere playing in your top four. BTW how is Tampa doing without him?

This fact coupled with Matt Carle sucking leads to the conclusion that Patrick Roy in his prime could have been in goal and the Flyers still lose to the Bruins.
Meszaros was perfectly fine with being third in ice time. I wouldn't say that he was the cause of the team falling apart. He's brought more to the table than Carle and Coburn combined. That's a fact. What hurt Philadelphia was that Pronger was out and Timonen was hurting.

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05-12-2011, 02:26 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
This year the Flyers had the best defense money could buy. It's more than a coincidence that as Meszaros was played more minutes, the defense got worse. Tampa thought he was ready for 1st-2nd pairing minutes and after that failed experiment, Yzerman's first move was dumping him here. The guy is fine on a third pairing on very good teams, but he's not leading any team anywhere playing in your top four. BTW how is Tampa doing without him?

This fact coupled with Matt Carle sucking leads to the conclusion that Patrick Roy in his prime could have been in goal and the Flyers still lose to the Bruins.
where would Tampa be with Leighton and Boucher as their goalies. oh yeah on the golf course.
Meszaros was the least of this teams problems. I really dont know what games you were watching in the playoffs.

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05-12-2011, 05:14 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Some fans/writers actually truely DONT want a goalie.

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...ilya-bryzgalov

Remember, most these people are HUGE Boucher fans. Its some good work looking the information up though.
I read some of there stuff often. I think they are a bit too preachy about their opinions over there. Their opinion is gospel and they all jump on you if you disagree.

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05-12-2011, 05:22 PM
  #92
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I read some of there stuff often. I think they are a bit too preachy about their opinions over there. Their opinion is gospel and they all jump on you if you disagree.
Yea... the writers have a fit if you go against them or dont agree with them. Like I said, they REALLY like Boucher over there. There is a fanclub and all. They throw alot of stats out there, but they skip over some stats that dilute their argument. I like reading their stuff at times (cause it does bring a different point of view) but like some of the things they argue against is crazy.


Like the Boucher is a fine starter thing, or (and Im not lieing) that Matt f'ing Walker is a fine 6th d-man.

Last season, I had to debate with one of their writers against Nodl. Lets just say, I dont see Nodl as a top 6 guy like some of their guys do. I stopped that debate when Geoff said it was Carter's fault Nodl couldnt get goals. That and Nodl was just plain ol "unlucky".


Ugg... the damn "unlucky" thing. They love that word over there.

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05-12-2011, 05:26 PM
  #93
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I'm fine with not running about and getting a superstar goaltender, but at some point, the revolving door of goaltenders has to be a problem. Pronger and Timonen only have so many years left, Pronger only so many good years left, if that, at some point you have to take your best shot with the best goaltending duo you can give them, and have some faith in your AHL team that they can produce a few guys that weren't first round draft picks to fill out the bottom of your roster, and do so effectively. Take the goaltending excuse off the table.

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05-12-2011, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Yea... the writers have a fit if you go against them or dont agree with them. Like I said, they REALLY like Boucher over there. There is a fanclub and all. They throw alot of stats out there, but they skip over some stats that dilute their argument. I like reading their stuff at times (cause it does bring a different point of view) but like some of the things they argue against is crazy.
Yea, I've noticed the Boucher love. It's a good site for information and some breaking news. A good friend of mine writes for the bleacherreport (which admittedly isn't a very reliable site) and he wrote in one of his blogs that he feels the Flyers would trade for Versteeg and the BSH writers ripped him on their site for spreading false rumors and such because his story on BR was picked up by Panatch and some one else. No blame, however, to the professional journalists who piggy backed some 20 y.o kids story on a blog site.

Ever since then, I've thought all the writers were dicks.

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05-12-2011, 05:34 PM
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Part of BSH's issues is that their gist seems to be with how a better goaltender would have resulted in just 2 more points this season.

Well, that's this season. Not next season. As we know, from year to year, a lot of things change. Last season, 2 points damn near made the difference between the playoffs and blowing the team up. Better goaltending last season would have meant more than 2 points.

However, goaltending in the regular season wasn't the problem. It's goaltending in the playoffs. The regular season is not the playoffs. A lot of things change when you're not seeing a different opponent every night.

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05-12-2011, 09:55 PM
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The defense got worse because Pronger > Meszaros.

Don't rehash the debate about acquiring the "failures" of Meszaros and Carle from Tampa.

You're going to lose every time.
I'm not "rehashing" any debate. Meszaros was a failure in TB, Carle wasn't a failure until about mid Feb on. The point is that Meszaros is a fine 3rd pairing D-Man. Play him first or second pairing minutes like the Flyers did from about February on, and the results speak for themselves.

Playing on the third pairing where he belongs and he's rarely matched up against top lines from opposing teams. If Pronger, Carle, Coyburn, & Timmo are all healthy and in the lineup at the start of the playoffs, Meszaros plays about 14-16 min per game which is the most he should be on the ice anyway.

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05-12-2011, 10:06 PM
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Trade Versteeg to whoever wants him for whatever they're willing to give back.
Try to move Carle for something decent. Sign a cheapish D-man to replace him.
Sign Vokoun. Problem solved.
Not that the Pens would want to help their rival clear cap space for a goalie but....

Versteeg

for

Matt niskanen(1.5 cap hit/rfa next year)
mid draft pick

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05-12-2011, 10:07 PM
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I still think we should maybe try to keep Versteeg mainly because he was injured and while healthy, I'd like to see what he can do.

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05-12-2011, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
I'm not "rehashing" any debate. Meszaros was a failure in TB, Carle wasn't a failure until about mid Feb on. The point is that Meszaros is a fine 3rd pairing D-Man. Play him first or second pairing minutes like the Flyers did from about February on, and the results speak for themselves.
Up until Yzerman's take over, the Tampa Bay organization was as much of a joke as the New York Islanders, only far less publicized.

Neither Meszaros or Carle failed Tampa Bay. Tampa Bay failed them.

While Carle always had his fallbacks, Meszaros is certainly capable of playing a well-rounded game.

Quote:
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Playing on the third pairing where he belongs and he's rarely matched up against top lines from opposing teams. If Pronger, Carle, Coyburn, & Timmo are all healthy and in the lineup at the start of the playoffs, Meszaros plays about 14-16 min per game which is the most he should be on the ice anyway.
Meszaros plays 14-16 minutes a game only because Carle is paired with Pronger. Honestly, I'd rather have Meszaros anchor a pairing than Carle, so that's something I can live with.

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05-12-2011, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Not that the Pens would want to help their rival clear cap space for a goalie but....

Versteeg

for

Matt niskanen(1.5 cap hit/rfa next year)
mid draft pick
Try...Tangradi+.

Niskanen + mid rounder is a joke. If you meant Leighton and not Versteeg, we might be able to work something out.

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