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Old
05-12-2011, 09:53 PM
  #101
Jester
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Averaged out over a regular season, I have no doubt that the difference between Boucher/Bob and Vokoun is 10-20 regular season goals.

HOWEVER...

A) Save percentage is still a team statistic so it's not exactly a safe method of calculation. Vokoun is helped and hurt by his team in the save percentage department just like Boucher/Bob is helped here in some ways and hurt here in some ways in terms of save percentage. Does it all even out in the end? Who knows?
Awesomely constructed paragraph, the weasel questions at the end referencing the fact that you're just making **** up is great. SVPCT is not a team statistic. Good goalies put up good SVPCT, and bad goalies put up bad SVPCT if they play enough games... no matter what the team in front of 'em is doing.

Vokoun: .908, .904, .910, .903, .918, .909, .919, .920, .919, .926, .925, .922

Luongo: .920, .915, .918, .931, .914, .921, .917, .920, .913, .928

Now, perhaps you don't feel that there is any difference between Nashville, Vancouver, and Florida in how they play... but I tend to believe there is pretty significant difference. Yet, somehow, in both cases both guys puttered right along. In Luongo's case there is no difference at all, and if you really want to get into a discussion about .005 bumps (during prime goaltending years) then that's another matter.

The poster boy for goalies that are the product of their team has always been Chris Osgood. However, the dude went to NYI and STL and put up almost identical numbers over 180 games as he has in Detroit over the course of his career.

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B) The 10-20 goal average is against season long competition, and as I've said before, the problem isn't the regular season. We can win that regardless. The problem is the playoffs when our guys aren't 100%. Do we have somebody in between the pipes to carry us through those lulls? The level of competition in the playoffs is an entirely different animal.
10-20 goals over 82 games is 3-5 goals over 20 games, and in a short series that is just as meaningful (if not more).

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I will say though that I agree with the ending to an extent. Philadelphia does not need and has never needed a big name goaltender. The difference, even in the postseason, is not extremely considerable especially considering the value that you'd have to give up for a big name both in terms of assets and cap space. However, that doesn't mean goaltending is unimportant. You can't get away with playing Blair Betts as a top line center and expect your offense to be a top tier offense. Likewise you can't get away with a back-up goaltender being your starter and expect him to make the saves he's supposed to make. We don't need a big name, we need someone remotely competent and proven in a starter's role.
Well, that explains why Philadelphia has not won a cup since they had a truly big name goaltender. While Philadelphia may not need a big name goaltender, your continued efforts to minimize the impact of goaltending independent of the team remain well below what would pass as acceptable analytical reasoning in any space where your claims would be vetted.

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05-12-2011, 09:59 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Up until Yzerman's take over, the Tampa Bay organization was as much of a joke as the New York Islanders, only far less publicized.
As much of a joke as our inability to acquire a goaltender for the past 23 years? Didn't that "joke" win a cup in 04? We've been waiting how long????

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Neither Meszaros or Carle failed Tampa Bay. Tampa Bay failed them.
Meszaros failed in Ottawa, and failed in TB. He was given every opportunity and was downright awful. PP time, first pairing minutes, and good PK minutes. No one was sad to see him leave TB. At his age, even the slightest sign of some upside would have kept him there. Funny how Yzermans FIRST move as GM was shipping him out of town.

I never said anything about Carle and Tampa Bay. Since you didn't read my previous post, I'll state what I said about Carle again,

Carle wasn't a failure until about mid Feb on

Last I checked he was playing here in mid Feb, not TB.


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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Meszaros is certainly capable of playing a well-rounded game.
On a very good team he is a third pairing D-man.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Meszaros plays 14-16 minutes a game only because Carle is paired with Pronger. Honestly, I'd rather have Meszaros anchor a pairing than Carle, so that's something I can live with.
Carle "anchors" his pairing with Pronger?
I think it's the other way around.

Meszaros is fine "anchoring" the third pairing with O'Donnell or Walker. Meszaros was totally exposed this year as his minutes increased due to Prongers injury.

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05-12-2011, 10:00 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
10-20 goals over 82 games is 3-5 goals over 20 games, and in a short series that is just as meaningful (if not more).
10-20 goals in 80ish games is basically 3-5 over 20 games (just under the average amount of games a Stanley Cup finalist plays in the postseason).

That's 0.5-1.5 goals per SERIES.

We should be able to spot a team 2 goals per series and beat basically anyone with our roster.

The problem is that Boucher/Bob is not 0.5-1.5 goals per series against QUALITY competition. It doesn't matter what the season averages are.

That's why we need a legitimate number one goalie. We don't need an all-star and another back-up is useless.


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Old
05-12-2011, 10:03 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
what he is saying is, the difference between say a Boucher/Bob and Vokoun is a total of 10 goals. What I dont agree with (as you will see if you look a their comments sections) is the methods they use. Taking the career sv% of goalies and using that isnt an effective way of trying to predict future sv% on different teams.
It's actually quite effective with most goalies. The big problem is that for most goalies, SVPCT tends to be a bit volatile around their average. I mean, check out Brodeur: http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...brodema01.html

So, margin of error is important. I would also suggest that recent years should be weighed more than further back, as players develop and work on their game it is going to reflect itself in the stats.

At the same time, 10-20 goals cannot be minimized in its importance too much. A few more OT games, a few more 1-goal wins, etc. all add up in the standings. Every year we see that it comes down to a few points, and those 10-20 goals that we're talking about here matter.

The other thing, which they note in that article, is that the playoffs are a small sample... also cannot be stressed enough. Playoffs are a crapshoot of hot teams, hot goalies, and injuries. That being said, if you were going to make a bet, you would want to bet on the proven track record... not whether or not the journeyman will get hot at the right moment in time.

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05-12-2011, 10:04 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Carle "anchors" his pairing with Pronger?
I think it's the other way around.
Did I say Carle anchors a pairing?

I said Meszaros anchors the third, which Carle would be doing if he wasn't paired with Pronger...

I'm not going to look at the rest of your post. It's a waste of my time.

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05-12-2011, 10:05 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
10-20 goals in 80ish games is basically 3-5 over 20 games (just under the average amount of games a Stanley Cup finalist plays in the postseason).

That's 0.5-1.5 goals per SERIES.

We should be able to spot a team 2 goals per series and beat basically anyone with our roster.

The problem is that Boucher/Bob is not 0.5-1.5 goals per series against QUALITY competition. It doesn't matter what the season averages are.

That's why we need a legitimate number one goalie. We don't need an all-star and another back-up is useless.

Yes, because our roster is THAT much better than everyone else. Delusional arrogance is useful, too. You know how I know you're a homer? Because you think we can spot teams 2 goals a series in the playoffs and win a Stanley Cup without it being a problem.

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05-12-2011, 10:20 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, because our roster is THAT much better than everyone else. Delusional arrogance is useful, too. You know how I know you're a homer? Because you think we can spot teams 2 goals a series in the playoffs and win a Stanley Cup without it being a problem.
2/7 = 0.29 GPG
1.5/7 = 0.21 GPG
1/7 = 0.14 GPG
0.5/7 = 0.07 GPG

If you can't spot that to a team per game and still win a series, then you have no right to call yourself a Stanley Cup Contender.

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05-12-2011, 10:31 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
2/7 = 0.29 GPG
1.5/7 = 0.21 GPG
1/7 = 0.14 GPG
0.5/7 = 0.07 GPG

If you can't spot that to a team per game and still win a series, then you have no right to call yourself a Stanley Cup Contender.
It is my belief that this team with Vokoun in net could easily have beat Boston.

There is no telling how the Flyers play if the goalie makes big saves as opposed to letting the other team score twice in the first 58 seconds of a game.

We played from behind almost the entire Boston series, a few big saves early on and we'd probably still be playing. The guys in front of Boucher had no confidence and played like they already lost.

Either way it's a moot point. The Flyers ran into a stone wall named Tim Thomas, a guy they have never had good success playing against.

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05-12-2011, 10:32 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
2/7 = 0.29 GPG
1.5/7 = 0.21 GPG
1/7 = 0.14 GPG
0.5/7 = 0.07 GPG

If you can't spot that to a team per game and still win a series, then you have no right to call yourself a Stanley Cup Contender.
Or you're a Stanley Cup contender that came up 2 goals short. It's amazing to me you've passed through puberty and still think making it through the Stanley Cup playoffs is such an easy thing that you can spot the other team advantages.

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05-12-2011, 10:33 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
It is my belief that this team with Vokoun in net could easily have beat Boston.

There is no telling how the Flyers play if the goalie makes big saves as opposed to letting the other team score twice in the first 58 seconds of a game.

We played from behind almost the entire Boston series, a few big saves early on and we'd probably still be playing. The guys in front of Boucher had no confidence and played like they already lost.

Either way it's a moot point. The Flyers ran into a stone wall named Tim Thomas, a guy they have never had good success playing against.
We likely win Game 2... who knows other than that.

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05-12-2011, 10:40 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
It is my belief that this team with Vokoun in net could easily have beat Boston.

There is no telling how the Flyers play if the goalie makes big saves as opposed to letting the other team score twice in the first 58 seconds of a game.

We played from behind almost the entire Boston series, a few big saves early on and we'd probably still be playing. The guys in front of Boucher had no confidence and played like they already lost.

Either way it's a moot point. The Flyers ran into a stone wall named Tim Thomas, a guy they have never had good success playing against.
I agree with you, but the problem is fitting Vokoun/acquiring Vokoun without crushing the depth we've created.

Moving Carle and/or Versteeg to get Vokoun I think creates a minimal hit on our depth while creating a legitimate goaltending threat between our pipes.

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05-12-2011, 10:56 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Did I say Carle anchors a pairing?
Yes, right here

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Honestly, I'd rather have Meszaros anchor a pairing than Carle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'm not going to look at the rest of your post. It's a waste of my time.
You obviously already did because the part where I pointed out you stating Carle "anchoring" was AT THE END of my post. Nice try though. You fail.


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05-12-2011, 11:03 PM
  #113
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Yes, right here
We, my friends, have yet another HFBoards that never heard of "context." It's a major part of the verbal part of the SATs. That's something you're going to want to look up because I never said that Carle was anchoring the Pronger-Carle pairing.

The state of learning in our country is really bad.

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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
You obviously already did because the part where I pointed out you stating Carle "anchoring" was AT THE END of my post. Nice try though. YOU FAIL
No, I skipped to the smileys actually because it stood out more.


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05-12-2011, 11:03 PM
  #114
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Yes, right here

You obviously already did because the part where I pointed out you stating Carle "anchoring" was AT THE END of my post. Nice try though. You fail.
Lol dude, he clearly states who he'd rather have anchoring a pair, not who was. It's a freakin' hypothetical. I do believe you have failed.


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05-13-2011, 10:00 AM
  #115
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God that first post makes me angry.. the whole... Homer mulling over if we need a goalie or not...

Really... REALLY?!

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05-15-2011, 12:21 PM
  #116
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Fire Homer Dot Com & Ed While Your At It

Homer could have gotten Rollie from the NY Isles for next to nothing but little Stevie
Y jumped right on it for Tampa Bay the rest is history now.

The same old crap every year from Uncle Ed (PT Barnum of the NHL + NBA) 1975 36 years ago. The Phils won there first WS ever in 1980 how much longer ED.


WE NEED A FIRE HOMER DOT COM

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05-15-2011, 12:47 PM
  #117
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You can't fire an owner.

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05-15-2011, 12:51 PM
  #118
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You can't fire an owner.

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05-15-2011, 01:03 PM
  #119
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You can't fire an owner.

he is not the owner. He sold all to Comcast. He sold the Spectrum and the Wells Fargo Center about 15 years ago

The Philadelphia Flyers are owned by Comcast-Spectacor, who bought them in 1996 for $150 mil.

He is chairman but I guess Mr Roberts could have him fired but not likely


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05-15-2011, 01:04 PM
  #120
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he is not the owner. He sold all to Comcast. He sold the Spectrum and the Wells Fargo Center about 10 years ago
No, he still owns a third.

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05-15-2011, 01:14 PM
  #121
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steady cash flow regardless of how far the Flyers go in the playoffs.

NHL Team Valuations
#5 Philadelphia Flyers
10.29.08, 6:00 PM ET

here is a little more

Valuation Breakdown


The skinny
The Philadelphia Flyers are owned by Comcast Spectacor, a joint venture between cable operator Comcast and arena manager Spectacor. The hidden jewel of this sports enterprise is Global Spectrum, Comcast Spectacor?s facility management arm that runs the Wachovia Center (home to the Flyers and Sixers) and the Wachovia Spectrum next door. Global Spectrum has operations in Canada and Asia and is the fastest-growing venue management firm in the world. Global Spectrum also provides design and construction consulting services and contributes steady cash flow regardless of how far the Flyers go in the playoffs.

Major corporate sponsors are Anheuser-Busch (nyse: BUD), PepsiCo (nyse: PEP), Comcast (nasdaq: CMCSA), Verizon Wireless, Toyota Motor (nyse: TM), AT&T (nyse: T). Naming rights sponsor is Wachovia (nyse: WB).

link to all teams from Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/31/...rs_316555.html

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05-15-2011, 02:13 PM
  #122
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Time and age have not tamed Snider’s lofty aspirations. In March 1996, he gave up majority ownership of the Flyers by entering into a merger agreement with the Comcast Corporation to create Comcast-Spectacor. Comcast acquired 66 percent of the Flyers, the 76ers, the Philadelphia Phantoms, and the First Union Complex. As chairman of this venture, Snider owns 34 percent of the entire package and oversees the operations of the Flyers and 76ers.
Link

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Old
05-15-2011, 02:33 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
2/7 = 0.29 GPG
1.5/7 = 0.21 GPG
1/7 = 0.14 GPG
0.5/7 = 0.07 GPG

If you can't spot that to a team per game and still win a series, then you have no right to call yourself a Stanley Cup Contender.
You do realize that just last year we lost 3 games to Chi by just 1 goal each. Take away 2 of those goals and we win the cup, not them. We lost the series 4 games to 2, spotting them 2 goals cost us 2 wins and the cup. Thus, by your own definition, spotting another team 2 goals DID not only cost us the series but the cup and a parade down Broad Street.

A better goalie would have won us game 1 and game 6, of that there is no doubt. That right there would have been enough to win us just one cup in the past 35 years.

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