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Old
05-12-2011, 09:45 AM
  #801
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
It was insulting for one of the best players in history to be offered a performance defined agreement. Talent is never paid for what it does. Talent is paid for what it's able to do. KHL didn't ask any of BS Sather was. They just wanted a talent. They got him. AND I DID NOT SEE HIM HERE. Who did better? They did. People from Ohmsk. That makes Sather a complete moron in my eyes. But I used to live with it.
He didn't stopped with JJ. He followed with Jagr's replacement Zherdev that was no match, but better that nothing we got nowadays. Then Sather replaced the intelligent HC we had with mad slavedriver that should have scared away any talented players for years to come. Richards will never sign in here, don't hope for that. He is no Jagr, but he is smart too.
Omsk giving Jagr that contract was much more about marketing and PR than it was about paying for Jagr's talent. The difference is, Sather didn't need to sign Jagr to "prove" that the Rangers are a legitimate team, or that the NHL is a legitimate league.

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05-12-2011, 10:03 AM
  #802
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Omsk giving Jagr that contract was much more about marketing and PR than it was about paying for Jagr's talent. The difference is, Sather didn't need to sign Jagr to "prove" that the Rangers are a legitimate team, or that the NHL is a legitimate league.
Wrong on both counts.

1. KHL has never needed any PR. Russians, from what I know, love hockey as much as Canadians. It is their baseball, if you will (while soccer is their football). Omsk wouldn't spend millions for the sake of spending. They are business people. No different than Dolan. I think you still consider Russia a Communist country. You're 20 years behind.
2. Sather did need to prove that Rangers are legitimate team. That need is permanent for any GM. In fact, Sather failed to do it. Rangers are borderline legit and you know it well. Losing Jagr has greatly contributed to that
.

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05-12-2011, 11:36 AM
  #803
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It was well known that Jagr going to the KHL was driven in part of a PR move. Its well documented and they even named the All-star teams that year after Jagr and Yashin. If it wasn't PR driven, then why in the world would they do that?

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05-12-2011, 12:10 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Both teams had good firsts it seemed, but the Czechs never buckled defensively, I thought if their offense had been unleashed earlier they would've put the game away before it really started. In the 3rd alone they should have had two more goals than they ended up with.
yeah and the US hit the ppost in the first with a 6x4 empty net (thanks Gaustad) and Kreider could have had an empty net slam dunk when it was 3-0 if Smith had made a routine pass. Johnson even noted it as it happened.

I watched the replay again last night on Versus and it reinforces what I said earlier.
Incidentally watching the replay I was impressed with Kreider game yesterday, easily his best game I saw of Canada, Swiss & Czech.

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05-12-2011, 01:13 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Hockey2000nyr View Post
It was well known that Jagr going to the KHL was driven in part of a PR move. Its well documented and they even named the All-star teams that year after Jagr and Yashin. If it wasn't PR driven, then why in the world would they do that?
Oh, youre correct, only it was not PR. It was publicity. Two terms are often mistaken because there is a similarity in tools, such as advertisement, and the purpose is common - to show product and/or company better than often it is. But they are quite opposite.
Publicity is to emphasize the accomplishments (management) and advantages (product), while PR is to hide the deficiencies (product) and mistakes (management). For example, when BP spilled the oil in the Gulf of Mexico the PR campaign was launched. When Sather ruined post-lockout Rangers by signing mediocre players in place of superstar, the PR campaign was launched. The methods that used are various, but the true founder of the theoretical base was Dr. J. Goebbels who insisted that lie is the most important. We see many posters on this board that were subject of that campaign and it is safe to say it was quite successful based on those quantities.
What KHL did was publicity; they wanted to show their multimillion toys to public, plus to please their new acquisitions.
In any case, signing a player for publicity (Jagr) would always look better to me, than doing the same for PR (Richards).

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05-12-2011, 03:33 PM
  #806
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What seems pretty obvious to me is you not understanding GM's unwillingness across the board to hand out contracts that fall under the 35+ rule. How did the Nylander and Rolston contracts works out for those GM's? If Jagr was so willing to keep playing in the NHL as his agent indicated, why didn't he receive multi-year offers from any other NHL teams then? If you read my first sentence again, you have your answer.
Didn't Sather hand out a 2 year contract to 35+ Brashear the year afterwards? While it wasn't close to the same amount of $ as what Jagr would have commanded, it was still top $ for a goon. Anyways, to infer that Sather has some kind of aversion to 35+ contracts is at odds with what I know of him. He doesn't strike me as the kind of GM thats shows any restraint when it comes to getting his man.

IMO, the reason Jagr didn't return is that Sather didn't view him as a major priority. He had foolishly decided in the previous off seasons that Gomez & Drury were the future leaders of the club. When they didn't click with Jagr, Sather started thinking that Jagr's time was passed and it was time to build a different club. He probably also had the idea of getting an elite defensemen like Redden in his head and knew the dollars just weren't there to pay Jagr.

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05-13-2011, 08:50 AM
  #807
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anyone one have the stats or a link to the stats from our guys at the WC's i cant find any for the life of me.

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05-13-2011, 09:06 AM
  #808
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anyone one have the stats or a link to the stats from our guys at the WC's i cant find any for the life of me.
http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/261/IHM2610USA_83_9_0.pdf

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05-13-2011, 09:49 AM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Rangerdanger20 View Post
anyone one have the stats or a link to the stats from our guys at the WC's i cant find any for the life of me.
Somewhat interesting stats. Kreider was tied for second in goals with Stepan, Wheeler & Palmieri. He also was tied for 5th in scoring with Palmieri. He had the second highest +/- on the team. Kreider acquited himself quite well IMO. His best game was the last given the talent he played against.

It shows what a clown Gordon is when Stapleton gets more TOI than Kreider and
even Mike Brown who IMO had a solid tourney.

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05-13-2011, 10:09 AM
  #810
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Chris Kreider is not ready for the NHL and thats why Gordon did not play him as much. I watched every game that USA played and this kid is not ready. He needs to go back to BC and light it up to prove to everyone that he can dominate that level. He was a non factor in every game that the US played.

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05-13-2011, 10:40 AM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
Didn't Sather hand out a 2 year contract to 35+ Brashear the year afterwards? While it wasn't close to the same amount of $ as what Jagr would have commanded, it was still top $ for a goon. Anyways, to infer that Sather has some kind of aversion to 35+ contracts is at odds with what I know of him. He doesn't strike me as the kind of GM thats shows any restraint when it comes to getting his man.
As you indicated, Brashear's cap hit was minimal in terms of overall dollars, not really the type of contract to hamstring you with the cap (and in hindsight, it didn't). Also, look at the Nylander situation. He was seeking multi-year deal and the Rangers wanted no part in that, and Washington foolishly handed out an awful contract for a player who has spent the last 2 seasons playing some games in Finland and the AHL. If Sather wasn't interested in Jagr's services, he would not have been offering him a 1 year deal + bonuses.

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05-13-2011, 10:42 AM
  #812
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Originally Posted by Stepanformayor View Post
Chris Kreider is not ready for the NHL and thats why Gordon did not play him as much. I watched every game that USA played and this kid is not ready. He needs to go back to BC and light it up to prove to everyone that he can dominate that level. He was a non factor in every game that the US played.
What are goals and assists good for anyway!

See below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by doakacola View Post
Kreider was tied for second in goals with Stepan, Wheeler & Palmieri. He also was tied for 5th in scoring with Palmieri. He had the second highest +/- on the team. Kreider acquited himself quite well IMO. His best game was the last given the talent he played against.

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05-13-2011, 11:25 AM
  #813
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Oh, youre correct, only it was not PR. It was publicity. Two terms are often mistaken because there is a similarity in tools, such as advertisement, and the purpose is common - to show product and/or company better than often it is. But they are quite opposite.
Publicity is to emphasize the accomplishments (management) and advantages (product), while PR is to hide the deficiencies (product) and mistakes (management). For example, when BP spilled the oil in the Gulf of Mexico the PR campaign was launched. When Sather ruined post-lockout Rangers by signing mediocre players in place of superstar, the PR campaign was launched. The methods that used are various, but the true founder of the theoretical base was Dr. J. Goebbels who insisted that lie is the most important. We see many posters on this board that were subject of that campaign and it is safe to say it was quite successful based on those quantities.
What KHL did was publicity; they wanted to show their multimillion toys to public, plus to please their new acquisitions.
In any case, signing a player for publicity (Jagr) would always look better to me, than doing the same for PR (Richards).
PR is not always negative. PR is public relations. The term "PR spin" has negative connotations.

Either way, my point still stands and you obviously agree with it. The money that Omsk gave to Jagr had less to do with his talent than the positive PR (or publicity) that signing him would give the team and the league.

Sather didn't need to sign Jagr for PR reasons. The only reason to sign Jagr was for what he could do on the ice.

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05-13-2011, 11:45 AM
  #814
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Jagr
Prucha
Rachunek

Deja vu...to 2005...

Sweden looks a bit fresher, hungrier and extremely focused. And they´re getting the bounces and calls their way.
Nice try by Eriksson to pull a Forsberg "stamp classic" on the PS.
But no cigar.
Good Euro game.
Backlund looks real good. Berglund, Ekman-Larsson & Silfverberg oo.
Jagr is a bit slow so far. Petr Prucha is so close to scoring (never heard that one before).
Will be an interesting 3rd period
Think the Czechs still have it in them to win it against the very inexperienced Swedish team. I think the goalie Fasth is very nervous.

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05-13-2011, 11:57 AM
  #815
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Speaking of Sweden...Loui Ericson (sp??) is pretty good..

And what about Bastiansen from Norway?

NHL bound??

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05-13-2011, 12:51 PM
  #816
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Originally Posted by Stepanformayor View Post
Chris Kreider is not ready for the NHL and thats why Gordon did not play him as much. I watched every game that USA played and this kid is not ready. He needs to go back to BC and light it up to prove to everyone that he can dominate that level. He was a non factor in every game that the US played.
Kreider never saw Stepan once as his centerman. He had Shannon & Yan Stastny
as his centermen. Kreider is in fact ready for the NHL right now. JVR came in and
didn't look much better than Kreider. Have no idea what games you were watching.

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05-13-2011, 12:53 PM
  #817
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
As you indicated, Brashear's cap hit was minimal in terms of overall dollars, not really the type of contract to hamstring you with the cap (and in hindsight, it didn't). Also, look at the Nylander situation. He was seeking multi-year deal and the Rangers wanted no part in that, and Washington foolishly handed out an awful contract for a player who has spent the last 2 seasons playing some games in Finland and the AHL. If Sather wasn't interested in Jagr's services, he would not have been offering him a 1 year deal + bonuses.
No, Brashear's contract didn't hamstring, but it also didn't show me a GM that was afraid to hand out multi year deals to aging players.

Regarding Nylander...I haven't seen any reports of Jagr wanting the kind of long-term deal that Nylander got. If it's true he wanted a 4 year deal, then I can understand the thinking behind letting him go, but I haven't seen it. And let's not confuse the situations here...Jagr was the most talented player on the roster, he was the captain, his contract was a dream, and he was huge in the playoffs. A 1 year + bonuses contract is a slap in the face for a player like Jagr. He wasn't a 42 year Mark Messier playing year to year.

The facts as I see them is that Jagr's days were numbered as soon as Gomez & Drury were signed. The money tied up in Gomez, Drury, Lundqvist & Redden (assuming he'd still be signed) was about $28M, while the cap was approx $56M. 50% invested in 4 players. There was no cash left over to sign Jagr to a reasonable contract and that's why Sather didn't really have serious interest.

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05-13-2011, 01:27 PM
  #818
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
No, Brashear's contract didn't hamstring, but it also didn't show me a GM that was afraid to hand out multi year deals to aging players.
Big difference between the cap amount for Brashear's contract and the cap amounts Jagr & Nylander were going to command.

Quote:
Regarding Nylander...I haven't seen any reports of Jagr wanting the kind of long-term deal that Nylander got. If it's true he wanted a 4 year deal, then I can understand the thinking behind letting him go, but I haven't seen it. And let's not confuse the situations here...Jagr was the most talented player on the roster, he was the captain, his contract was a dream, and he was huge in the playoffs. A 1 year + bonuses contract is a slap in the face for a player like Jagr
Since when is offering a 1 year deal to a 36 year old player a slap in the face? Brendan Shanahan was offered and signed two 1 year deals with the Rangers, I never considered that a slap in the face to him. Modano & Recchi also signed multiple 1 year deals in their late 30's with various teams. Why is so blasphemous for Jagr to have accepted a 1 year deal at age 36 when his point production had been dropping 25 points a season from the previous years? I'm fine with Jagr having chose the KHL route, I don't have any ill will towards him, I just strongly disagree with the notion that the Rangers did him some disservice by not re-upping him to a multi-year deal given his age and declining production.

Quote:
The facts as I see them is that Jagr's days were numbered as soon as Gomez & Drury were signed. The money tied up in Gomez, Drury, Lundqvist & Redden (assuming he'd still be signed) was about $28M, while the cap was approx $56M. 50% invested in 4 players. There was no cash left over to sign Jagr to a reasonable contract and that's why Sather didn't really have serious interest.
You can't include Redden as part of the equation because he wasn't signed until after it was determined that the Rangers would not be able to negotiate a new deal with Jagr.

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05-13-2011, 01:58 PM
  #819
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Give me a 36-year-old Jagr signed for 4 years at a cap hit of around $6 million over any and all of Gomez, Drury, and Redden.

I could understand the rationale behind not re-signing Jagr if the alternatives were better, but they were not. Even at the age of 36, Jagr was better and more talented than those players mentioned above. In fact, now, at the age of 39, he is STILL better than any of those players. The decisions that Sather made in the summers of 07 and 08 were bad back then and they look even worse today. I have a very hard time rationalizing what he did in free agency during those summers.

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05-13-2011, 02:00 PM
  #820
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Kreidr is a low maintainance player and could certainly make strong plays at the NHL level. But he certainly is undeveloped in many areas, and is not a dominating player at any level. I mean at a level were he is bigger and faster then "everyone" else, he isn't dominating.

If he ever is going to become a 2nd line player, he needs to develop those areas. And when in gods name is he going to get to work on being more then a speedster/grinder if he turns pro now?

He should stay another year.

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05-13-2011, 02:00 PM
  #821
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Finland vs Russia is about to start on Versus if anyone's interested.

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05-13-2011, 02:16 PM
  #822
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Finland vs Russia is about to start on Versus if anyone's interested.
Thank you sir, should be a fun game

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05-13-2011, 02:23 PM
  #823
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Give me a 36-year-old Jagr signed for 4 years at a cap hit of around $6 million over any and all of Gomez, Drury, and Redden.

I could understand the rationale behind not re-signing Jagr if the alternatives were better, but they were not. Even at the age of 36, Jagr was better and more talented than those players mentioned above. In fact, now, at the age of 39, he is STILL better than any of those players. The decisions that Sather made in the summers of 07 and 08 were bad back then and they look even worse today. I have a very hard time rationalizing what he did in free agency during those summers.
That much is obvious but you can't go back and erase the past. Drury & Gomez were already on the books at the time that Jagr became a FA.


Last edited by wolfgaze: 05-13-2011 at 02:30 PM.
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05-13-2011, 02:32 PM
  #824
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The way Russia breaks out and enters the zone is a lot of fun to watch. It would keep me on the edge of the seat if i was a Russia fan, but they make it look pretty easy.

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05-13-2011, 03:05 PM
  #825
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Big difference between the cap amount for Brashear's contract and the cap amounts Jagr & Nylander were going to command.
That's fine. Maybe I am misinterpretting, but your original assertion seemed to say that Sather (and other GMs) have a huge aversion to handing out multi-year contracts to 35+. The fact that Slats paid top dollar for a goon like Brashear seems to indicate that that is not so true.

Sather saw the softness of the roster and lack of a tough guy and went out and got what he thought was the solution...and paid handsomely for it.


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Since when is offering a 1 year deal to a 36 year old player a slap in the face? Brendan Shanahan was offered and signed two 1 year deals with the Rangers, I never considered that a slap in the face to him. Modano & Recchi also signed multiple 1 year deals in their late 30's with various teams. Why is so blasphemous for Jagr to have accepted a 1 year deal at age 36 when his point production had been dropping 25 points a season from the previous years? I'm fine with Jagr having chose the KHL route, I don't have any ill will towards him, I just strongly disagree with the notion that the Rangers did him some disservice by not re-upping him to a multi-year deal given his age and declining production.
It's a slap in the face because Jagr is/was still a dominant player it the league. His performance in the playoffs proved that. He was the team captain. He led the team in goals and points in each of his years here. He was not injury prone. And most importantly...he apparently didn't want a 1 year contract.

Also, what does it matter that his points dropped 25 points from the previous year. You pay based on what you think a player will do, not what they have done. I can't imagine Jagr's production dropping much below 70, if at all.

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You can't include Redden as part of the equation because he wasn't signed until after it was determined that the Rangers would not be able to negotiate a new deal with Jagr.
If it wasn't Redden, then it would be someone else. The team had holes on the blue-line and the young players were not ready to play big minutes. Maybe it still would have been Roszi at $5M or whatever.

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