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Is The CHL In Trouble?

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Old
05-13-2011, 03:45 PM
  #51
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New Bloomington owner is considering naming the team after a corporate sponsor:

http://wjbc.com/new-hockey-owner-con...e-sponsorship/

Quote:
He’s staying mum on finances, due partially to a confidentiality agreement he signed.


Maybe it's because he knows in the end he doesn't have them?

Quote:
Bloomington has a good base for hockey and he wants to see that grow. The PrairieThunder had about a 2,000 fan base. DelBuono says it’ll take about 3,500 fans to make the team a viable business opportunity.
Dear god....2,000? Thats about what we get for Wednesday/Sunday home games, are weekend games are usually around or above 3,500(granted i'm talking a 4,000 seater here) Where are you suddenly going to get 1,5000 new people in that city to like hockey?

Quote:
John Butler with Central Illinois Arena Management says the arrival of the new hockey team owners will ensure that hockey will continue to thrive and grow in Bloomington-Normal.

“I think having owners that have substantial financial backing and have a great marketing sense and are willing to invest in the team. That creates an excitement that everyone’s looking for,” Butler said.
Continue thriving? It never was.

I'll believe it when I see it on this financial backing. The one guy was a former AAHL owner for god sakes, the other guy was desperate to own a hockey team and he decided to team up with the first guy he crossed paths with. Oh....here's another funny thing about this DelBuono's kid is a goalie in the pro ranks, how much you wanna bet he plays for this Bloomington team as the starting goalie?

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05-13-2011, 06:22 PM
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At the recent Glendale City Council meeting, when the city voted to again pay the $25MM arena management payment, thus keeping the Coyotes in town for another year, Coyotes' GM Don Maloney was one of the speakers.

At that meeting, Maloney mentioned that the long-term plan is to locate the team's AHL affiliate in Prescott (home of the Arizona Sundogs).

That's the first time I've heard of this happening, but I'm completely in favor of it. That would give me at least three or four opportunities every year to make the two-hour drive north and see the Blues' top prospects when the Peoria Rivermen come to town...

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05-13-2011, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
At the recent Glendale City Council meeting, when the city voted to again pay the $25MM arena management payment, thus keeping the Coyotes in town for another year, Coyotes' GM Don Maloney was one of the speakers.

At that meeting, Maloney mentioned that the long-term plan is to locate the team's AHL affiliate in Prescott (home of the Arizona Sundogs).

That's the first time I've heard of this happening, but I'm completely in favor of it. That would give me at least three or four opportunities every year to make the two-hour drive north and see the Blues' top prospects when the Peoria Rivermen come to town...
Do you have a link for it?

Holy shoot, does he realize they don't draw flies for the Sundogs now? He better hope the new owners of the yotes are content with owning the sundogs and LOSING tons of money.

I saw a report they would like to stay in San Antonio(in the Affiliations thread in the AHL forum)

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05-13-2011, 06:55 PM
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Heres some info on DelBuono:

http://www.socialaw.com/slip.htm?cid=16295&sid=121

All over a high school hockey game and his son getting called for a 3rd man in. Apparently his son's friend was called for spearing which was also in the case.

His request was....denied. shocking? not really.

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05-13-2011, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billycanuck View Post


Seriously. How can you be a commissioner of a league that doesn't exist as of right now?? So the Central Hockey League is in truth the Central/Western Professional/International Hockey League.
It's due to fact that in legal terms, the IHL does exist. This season is the first of a two year working agreement between both leagues; the IHL franchises were not required to purchase a CHL license. At the conclusion of the 2011-2012 season, all parties concerned will have to make a decision how they move forward -- which, I believe, will most likely result in the remaining IHL franchises (If there's more than one left standing) making a choice between the ECHL or juniors.

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05-13-2011, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackalsfan1 View Post
New Bloomington owner is considering naming the team after a corporate sponsor:

http://wjbc.com/new-hockey-owner-con...e-sponsorship/


That would be a brutal idea... Ladies and Gentlemen here are your... Bloomington US Cellulars! Or Bloomington Great Harvest Bread Company!!

All for a title sponsor of the team, but the team has to have a name that isn't tied to a corporation or local business.

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05-13-2011, 11:14 PM
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I know that there are a number of soccer teams with corporate games.


I am not sure if there's anything in CHL league bylaws that allow or prohibit such a nickname.

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05-14-2011, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoutin1 View Post
It's due to fact that in legal terms, the IHL does exist. This season is the first of a two year working agreement between both leagues; the IHL franchises were not required to purchase a CHL license. At the conclusion of the 2011-2012 season, all parties concerned will have to make a decision how they move forward -- which, I believe, will most likely result in the remaining IHL franchises (If there's more than one left standing) making a choice between the ECHL or juniors.
The IHL is a sick joke. Why the CHL wanted these teams was beyond me. The only prize they got was Fort Wayne and recently the Frankie's blasted the league. The only IHL team I see surviving is Fort Wayne, but some are convinced the ECHL wants not much to do with them. The juniors route might not be a bad idea, for some reason komets fans continuously pay for crap hockey that is a lot lower than what they deserve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billycanuck View Post


That would be a brutal idea... Ladies and Gentlemen here are your... Bloomington US Cellulars! Or Bloomington Great Harvest Bread Company!!

All for a title sponsor of the team, but the team has to have a name that isn't tied to a corporation or local business.
I heard a funny one earlier....The Outback Steakhouse Bloomington Onions. Then it was suggested when they score 5 Goals everyone at the game should recieve a free blooming onion from Outback.

Haha, we have that promotion, actually. Seriously...our arena goes bonkers everytime we get 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
I know that there are a number of soccer teams with corporate games.


I am not sure if there's anything in CHL league bylaws that allow or prohibit such a nickname.
Speaking of bylaws, do you happen to have a copy or know of the ECHL, CHL or IHL bylaws? I swear i've heard more than enough today that certain fans out there are convinced that this new franchise is an IHL team and not really a CHL taam.

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05-14-2011, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackalsfan1 View Post
The IHL is a sick joke. Why the CHL wanted these teams was beyond me. The only prize they got was Fort Wayne and recently the Frankie's blasted the league. The only IHL team I see surviving is Fort Wayne, but some are convinced the ECHL wants not much to do with them. The juniors route
I agree that the IHL failed in application; however, I'd argue that, in theory -- a regionally based league with lower operating costs -- it's what is most practical for the AA level of hockey. Though clearly, enough egos still exist, and enough money remains to be lost to prevent all parties from coming together and admitting what they've been doing is simply not working across the board for the majority of teams. Whether it would be one AA level super-league with primary play within regional divisions or conferences, or several regionally based leagues is uncertain, but some type of realignment is inevitable if any type of workable model is the ultimate goal, imo.

Quote:
Speaking of bylaws, do you happen to have a copy or know of the ECHL, CHL or IHL bylaws? I swear i've heard more than enough today that certain fans out there are convinced that this new franchise is an IHL team and not really a CHL taam.
I believe that in order to see a copy of a league's bylaws, your best chance would be to go to a member team and ask if they'd let you see them. I've never heard of a league allowing them for public view, though it may have happened.

However, with regard to Bloomington's new franchise, it is without question, a CHL licensed team; it's not an IHL franchise -- which even further erodes what's left of that league. However, the reason that such a move was permitted to happen was specifically because legally, the CHL and IHL are two entities operating under a joint working agreement. Simple put: As of now, there are two franchises in Bloomington -- one from each league. So, the U.S. Cellular Coliseum had a decision; and they made their choice by accepting the CHL's franchise via a tenant lease.

In any case, I'm going to guess that you're referencing a thread on ITB where it was debated which league issued the license. Am I close?

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05-14-2011, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jackalsfan1 View Post
Do you have a link for it?

Holy shoot, does he realize they don't draw flies for the Sundogs now? He better hope the new owners of the yotes are content with owning the sundogs and LOSING tons of money.

I saw a report they would like to stay in San Antonio(in the Affiliations thread in the AHL forum)
Nope, no link... but I was there in person and heard the words come from Maloney's own mouth. Will see if it's reported in print somewhere.

Now that I think about it a little, IIRC he didn't say specifically that he wanted the AHL affiliate in Prescott, so maybe he's talking about trying to get the Sundogs into the ECHL. There's talk of building a new arena in Tucson, so that might be an option for a move of the AHL affiliate if one is in the works, and have the entire pro development organization located in Arizona.

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05-14-2011, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackalsfan1 View Post
Speaking of bylaws, do you happen to have a copy or know of the ECHL, CHL or IHL bylaws? I swear i've heard more than enough today that certain fans out there are convinced that this new franchise is an IHL team and not really a CHL taam.
Nope. There is a FAQ on the PHPA site about the CBAs for the (AHL,) ECHL and CHL, respectively. (But that only addresses the player interactions, not franchise-franchise stuff.)

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05-14-2011, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoutin1 View Post
I agree that the IHL failed in application; however, I'd argue that, in theory -- a regionally based league with lower operating costs -- it's what is most practical for the AA level of hockey. Though clearly, enough egos still exist, and enough money remains to be lost to prevent all parties from coming together and admitting what they've been doing is simply not working across the board for the majority of teams. Whether it would be one AA level super-league with primary play within regional divisions or conferences, or several regionally based leagues is uncertain, but some type of realignment is inevitable if any type of workable model is the ultimate goal, imo.



I believe that in order to see a copy of a league's bylaws, your best chance would be to go to a member team and ask if they'd let you see them. I've never heard of a league allowing them for public view, though it may have happened.

However, with regard to Bloomington's new franchise, it is without question, a CHL licensed team; it's not an IHL franchise -- which even further erodes what's left of that league. However, the reason that such a move was permitted to happen was specifically because legally, the CHL and IHL are two entities operating under a joint working agreement. Simple put: As of now, there are two franchises in Bloomington -- one from each league. So, the U.S. Cellular Coliseum had a decision; and they made their choice by accepting the CHL's franchise via a tenant lease.

In any case, I'm going to guess that you're referencing a thread on ITB where it was debated which league issued the license. Am I close?
Yeah, those guys are NUTS over there. One guy specifically is acting like this is a conspiracy.

I agree that the concept was good in the IHL but how it was run and multiple teanms owning others and such. Like Larry Kinney of Port Huron apparently helped out with QC's finances and then the Franke's with Bloomington. There was definitely some shady crap going on. I'm all for a 30 team "super" league that is based on several regional divisions(with out of division play mixed in as well) we are so close to coming to that point. We might be down to 30 AA teams this summer. the sad part is, I don't think my Jackals would make the 30 team cut with a 4k seater.

I'm not thinking DelBuono is the sharpest tool in the shed. With all thats going on in the CHL and talk of it um.....potentially dying. I don't think I would rush to purchase a CHL franchise. Given the fact he teamed up with someone who purchased an AAHL team. in the past that no longer exists(granted the league no longer does but they weren't among the last couple standing or anything) Generally, these A league owners don't have a lot of money compared to a AA owner(there is a reason why they own an A franchise instead) and the franchise owned failed.

I recall when Bloomington got a team the ECHL was in the cards but I forget why they actually ended up in the UHL instead. It's too bad they weren't an ECHL franchise instead(granted, I doubt theyd still be in the league by now....however Wheeling for some reason still is so perhaps they would be.) I wonder why a millionaire from the East Coast is suddenly so interested in Bloomington, Illinois. From what i understand the population is small and the AHL's Peoria Rivermen are close enough. I wonder why since being a millionaire from the East Coast that DelBuono didn't attempt to team up with somebody for an ECHL franchise. We could use another Northeast ECHL team.

I just don't see this working out well, I don't see them finding 1500 new customers on a game per game basis.

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05-14-2011, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Nope, no link... but I was there in person and heard the words come from Maloney's own mouth. Will see if it's reported in print somewhere.

Now that I think about it a little, IIRC he didn't say specifically that he wanted the AHL affiliate in Prescott, so maybe he's talking about trying to get the Sundogs into the ECHL. There's talk of building a new arena in Tucson, so that might be an option for a move of the AHL affiliate if one is in the works, and have the entire pro development organization located in Arizona.
You live in Germany but happed to be in Phoenix, Arizona for a press conference?

I'm surprised Maloney, given his roots and all and his brother was a blueshirt that he's so committed to these Coyotes.

Unless they want to pull of a NJ like deal where the Devils own Trenton and Albany I can't see Prescott housing an AHL or ECHL team. They don't draw flies now and any owner would have to be content with losses financially speaking.

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05-14-2011, 06:00 PM
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For the Super-league talk here is a good post I found on it elsewhere. It's from about 3ish weeks ago so obviously playing around with it some things would need to be updated:

Quote:
CHL
Allen- Avg Attendance 3,782.6

Being the only team left in Texas does not look good, the attendance is their to support AA hockey. In my model the closest team would be tulsa. If they could get Bossier as well as missisippi then I dont see a problem with travel. I think their is a strong fan base for pro hockey in Allen. I dont see them going to the NAHL. SPHL maybe?

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 60%


Arizona- AVG attendance 2,095.8

Attendance is down drastically, years ago they were drawing more than 4,000 this year barely over 2,000. I think this is a market that would fit well within the west footprint of the ECHL. 4-6 hour drive to Las Vegas would be a nice rivalry. In a perfect world, Arizon will bounce back to drawing close to 4,000 and fit in perfect. I think they will atleast give it a try. What other options do they have?
Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 60%

Bloomington- AVG Attendance 2,479.8

I think the PT are just about done, The new lawsuits and the poor attendance are killers to me. They gave it a shot, and as much as I would love to see it work there, I dont think it will. If they could somehow manage to get in the ECHL, get a great on ice product, they may be able to draw 3,000+. 3,000 is not a good # in AA hockey unless you own your arena or have a favorable lease. Could the PT be heading to the USHL? NAHL? I think we will see them return for one more hoorah, that will end miserably.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 70%

Bossier-Shreveport- AVG Attendance 3,221.8

The mudbugs are rumored to be heading to the SPHL. This will be a very good fit for them. Lower operating costs and still maintain PRO hockey. If the superleague did infact take place, they would have a couple teams with in decent driving range. If Allen, Tulsa, Whitchita, and Missouri jumped ship combining with Gwinnet, Greenville and South Carolina, IT could make for pretty reasonable travle. I would like to see them come along, but rumor have it they are leaning towards SPHL

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 10%


Colorado- AVG Attendance 5,289.0

Seems like a perfect fit for the ECHLS western Division, a natural rival with UTAH would be in effect with pretty reasonable travel to IDAHO, Las Vegas, and the california teams. I am hearing this is going to take place regardless if there is a merger or not.
Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Dayton - AVG Attendance 1,684.3

There is no way Dayton survives, the ECHL did not want them before, they do not want them again. Dayton needs to hope to hook up with the FHL or try to get something started with the Battle Creek Revolution. Dayton does not have the fan support to support AA hockey.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 1% * you never know I guess*

Evansville- AVG Attendance 1,318.5

This is one of the prizes of the merger, ECHL lost out on Evansville first time around. Attendance is sure to soar with the new arena being completed next season. I can see Evansville being a staple franchise in the Michigan/Indiana/Ohio market for some time. Biggest concern is a junior league comes in and sweeps them away. USHL possibly?

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 80%

Fort Wayne- AVG Attendance 7,451.3

With the Frankes you never know. Will they start up a IHL3? Bring back flint, Pt.Huron? Keep dayton alive? I dont see this happening. I think the Frankes are starting to realize the need for a AA superleague. Unless they make the move to AHL(which I don’t see happening) They won’t turn to juniors. So if a merger did go down their options are ECHL or AHL... My bet is ECHL

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 90%


Laredo- AVG Attendance 3,629.7

Strongly considering moving to NAHL (http://bordertownsports.wordpress.co...er-glenn-hart/) I think this is going to happen, they are on an island in the lower part of texas. I do not think they will have pro hockey next season. NAHL is going to be in Laredo next season.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 5%

Mississippi- AVG Attendance 3,082.7

Although I would like to see better Attendance, the geographic footprint is there for them to join the ECHL/CHL superleague. I think they could draw close to $3,500 in the future, especially with the NHL affiliation helping draw in the casual fans. I don't see any other leagues with footprints that would benefit them.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 75%

Missouri- AVG Attendance 5,390.0

This is another no brainer for the ECHL to accept. With attendance over 5,000 there is no reason to worry about juniors coming in to lower costs. This is a No brainer for the ECHL or Missouri
Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Odessa- AVG Attendance 2,757.6

Already committed to the NAHL

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 0%

Quad City- AVG Attendance 2,710.6

Another market that may draw more fans from the NHL affiliation. In the 2 years of AHL they drew over 3,000 people. I can see this happening again. Many people have said Quad City is a dead market. I dont think so, with a succesful team, they can draw over 3,000 possibly 3,500. If your team is not good, then attendance is going to drop, No one wants to see a loser.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 65%

Rapid City- 4,926.8-

A team who is kind of on their own geographically but draw huge at the gate. This is a team who will be swooped up by the ECHL with out any problems. I cant forsee any other type of league coming in a sweeping them away.
Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%


Rio Grande Valley- Avg attendance- 4,314.1

Not sure if they will have hockey with Laredo(possibly) and Odessa (for sure) going to the NAHL. I think it would leave the Bees on an island. Current legal issues are halting plans of preparing for next season. (http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/art...uits-bees.html) Attendance is great, the question is, what is the travel going to look like, I think wherever Laredo goes, Rio Grande is sure to follow.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 5%

Texas- Avg attendance- 2,177.4

With a very low attendance figure, one has to think. How long can they continue to lose money? Averaging under 2,200 people is not sufficent to maintain a AA hockey budget. If they were able to get a new arena, that seats more than 2,400 people. They might make it work. (http://www.examiner.com/sports-in-wi...tion-of-odessa) suggests the Brahmas are possibly headed to the NAHL. To me, the geographic footprint and the low attendance suggests either NAHL, or SPHL is in the future of the Brahmas

Percent of being in a AA superleague (ECHL): 20%

Tulsa- AVG Attendance 4,665.4

There were rumours of NAHL earlier in the season, I dont see them going this route, especially if ALLEN, and Bossier happen to stay. There is alot of team Geographically who would be put in a Division with Tulsa to make travel ok. NAHL is still a possibility though

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 70%

Wichita- AVG Attendance 5,274.9
No brainer for the ECHL to accept wichita. They would have some of the same rivals as they do in the CHL. I do not see them going to NAHL but their is a slight possibility. Drawing over 5,000 per game is refreshing to the checkbook, as losing money should not be an issue. There is a slight chance of NAHL.
Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 90%


ECHL
Alaska – AVG Attendance 4,194.1

I do not see them going anywhere, perhaps the WHL in the future, but for the next few years, ECHL is where it is going to be. Unless the teams out west all move to another league. They draw great, Travel is brutal.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Bakersfield- AVG Attendance 5,001.7 –

Unless an AHL team moves out west, I do not see bakersfield going anywhere. They draw great and are a staple in the ECHL West Conference.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Cincinnati AVG Attendance 3,859.1

Cyclones are not going to be in any other league, they had AHL it failed, attendance is on the rise again. Whats the saying. If its not broken dont fix it. That is the Cyclones.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Elmira- AVG Attendance 3,480.8

Not going anywhere unless the new FHL makes some huge strides forward in the next few years. The ECHL offers Elmira a pretty nice geographic footprint.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Florida – AVG Attendance 4,968.4

Great Attendance, Not so great travel. They seem to like the ECHL. I dont see them going anywhere.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%


Greenville – AVG Attendance 3,669.1

New team in the league, drawing almost 3,700 people in first year is promising. Not going anywhere

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%


Gwinnett – AVG Attendance 5,164.7

Not going anywhere, will benefit from the new teams coming in.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Idaho- AVG Attendance 3,899.7

Not going anywhere, will benefit from the new teams coming in.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Kalamazoo – Avg Attendance 3,037.5

Ticket prices going up through the roof next season and new arena issues. IDK how much longer Kalamazoo will support the Wings. Kalamazoo can not afford $15.00 per ticket. I don’t see attendance rising anytime soon. I think the next 2-4 years will tell the future of hockey in Kalamazoo.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Las Vegas – AVG Attendance 3,881.8

Not going anywhere, will benifit from the new teams coming in.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Ontario – AVG Attendance 6,324.6

Unless an AHL team moves out west, I do not see ontario going anywhere. They draw great and are a staple in the ECHL West Conference.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Reading – AVG Attendance 4,477.6

Good attendance, Not going anywhere

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

South Carolina AVG Attendance 3,140.4

Bad year Attendance wise, maybe something to keep an eye on. If trend continues may need to look at other options in the future. Not right now

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Stockton AVG Attendanc 6,196.9

Unless an AHL team moves out west, I do not see bakersfield going anywhere. They draw great and are a staple in the ECHL West Conference.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Toledo – AVG Attendance 5,878.7

Not going anywhere

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Trenton AVG Attendance 2,209.3

How long will the N.J Devils ownership keep them afloat. I dont see it happening to much longer.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 60% * maybe another year ?

Utah AVG Attendance 3,939.9

Unless an AHL team moves out west, I do not see utah going anywhere. They draw good and will benifit from colorado joining.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 100%

Victoria AVG Attendance 3,645.3
Committed to WHL.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 0%

Wheeling AVG Attendance 2,322.1

A dead market, like dayton, needs to consider joining some form of single A hockey. Wheeling had a fantastic team this year and still could not draw 2,500. Experiments in Johnstown failed as well.

Percent of being in AA superleague (ECHL): 60% * I just think they are losing to much money. Expect them to move* SOON!


Based on the following Information I would put the teams into 2 conferences teams with above 50% chance of joining are in my imagninary conferences.

Western

Midwest Division (really travel to kalamazoo or Elmira is probably further then Bakersfield)
Allen
Mississippi
Missouri
Tulsa
Whichita

Mountain Divsion
Alaska
Colorado
Idaho
Rapid City ?? could be in either
Utah

Pacific Division
Arizona
Bakersfield
Las Vegas
Ontario
Stockton



Eastern Conference

Atlantic
Elmira
Reading
Trenton
Wheeling

New Divsion
Cinncinatti
Evansville
Ft.Wayne
Toledo

North

Bloomington
Chicago
Kalamazoo
Quad City

South

Florida
Greenville
Gwinnet
South Carolina

In my model, obviously you would play teams who are close to you, Example North and New division would play each other a lot. Close inter conference games would be played. Example Rapid City would play Quad city, Bloomington, etc. Same goes for Missouri.

I would love to see this happen, Do we honestly think we could get a 30 team superleague

Markets I think could eventually come in to play as well (teams like wheeling, bloomington, and trenton will not last long unless something changes)

- Flint (someday it will happen)
- Muskegon (poor attendance for juniors, maybe pro hockey is something that needs to return)
- Youngstown ( possibility)
- Indianapolis (would love to see it happen)
- Fresno ( I guess ECHL is already looking into it)
I could NEVER see Flint or Muskegon in this league. I'm sorry, I think the pro hockey days in those places are over, especially with Michigan's economy.


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05-14-2011, 06:24 PM
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You live in Germany but happed to be in Phoenix, Arizona for a press conference?

I'm surprised Maloney, given his roots and all and his brother was a blueshirt that he's so committed to these Coyotes.

Unless they want to pull of a NJ like deal where the Devils own Trenton and Albany I can't see Prescott housing an AHL or ECHL team. They don't draw flies now and any owner would have to be content with losses financially speaking.
I watched the live City of Glendale meeting too, and heard those exact words. Was a little shocked he mentioned it. But yep, he mentioned moving a farm team to Prescott Valley.

FYI - the City of Glendale meeting was streamed live via the Winnipeg Free Press. There was live chatting too. People were pretty upset when the vote went through 5-2.

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05-14-2011, 06:40 PM
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I watched the live City of Glendale meeting too, and heard those exact words. Was a little shocked he mentioned it. But yep, he mentioned moving a farm team to Prescott Valley.

FYI - the City of Glendale meeting was streamed live via the Winnipeg Free Press. There was live chatting too. People were pretty upset when the vote went through 5-2.
Hopefully whoever buys the Yotes is willing to fit the bill for the whole pipeline because Prescott won't last long on a local owners dime.

That I did not know, thanks for the info billycanuck.

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05-14-2011, 11:16 PM
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You live in Germany but happed to be in Phoenix, Arizona for a press conference?
I live in Glendale, genius...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackalsfan1 View Post
I'm surprised Maloney, given his roots and all and his brother was a blueshirt that he's so committed to these Coyotes.

Unless they want to pull of a NJ like deal where the Devils own Trenton and Albany I can't see Prescott housing an AHL or ECHL team. They don't draw flies now and any owner would have to be content with losses financially speaking.
That's your opinion. There are a lot of people who know quite a bit about hockey who disagree with you. Posting 50 times a day to an Internet message board doesn't make you an expert on minor league hockey.

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05-14-2011, 11:23 PM
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I live in Glendale, genius...



That's your opinion. There are a lot of people who know quite a bit about hockey who disagree with you. Posting 50 times a day to an Internet message board doesn't make you an expert on minor league hockey.
Under country next to your name it says Germany, chill.

When did I say I know? I follow the minors enough to know that the mendoza line falls around 2,000. Someone I know broke this down further that stated 4,000 is the break even point on the average(may or may not be true) i'm not claiming to know every teams situation as each agreement for each minor league team regarding their lease is different. Like ours, we seat 4,000 but i know for a fact our owner gets something out of the concessions. not all teams owners get concessions revenue. But i do know averaging what the sundogs do won't get the job done long term unless the NJ Devils route is taken(ask Trenton)The only reason they have a team is because the Devils own them. Arizona averages UNDER 2,100 per game. not many successful teams do.

I do not post 50 times a day, if you even did the math that is pretty inaccurate. maybe i've posted more lately but not 50 everyday or even on the average.

If you check this out:
http://www.mib.org/~lennier/hockey/att.cgi

The Sundogs draw 71 out of 75 pro teams(excluding NHL) WELL below the CHL and SPHL averages. You CAN'T tell me that will get the job done.


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05-15-2011, 02:59 AM
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You're not supposed to prove that your "opinion" is actually fact. That's cheating.

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05-15-2011, 06:15 PM
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You're not supposed to prove that your "opinion" is actually fact. That's cheating.


Sorry Panda, i'll keep that in mind next time. I thought on message boards it was important to provide links when applicable.

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05-15-2011, 06:29 PM
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Meeting scheduled for Wednesday in Laredo to discuss the team's future:

http://www.prohockeynews.com/hockey/..._meeting.shtml

One thing I like is they sent out a survey to STH's to see what changes they would like for this upcoming season, interesting.

Quote:
This follows a request by the organization for their fans' help in filling out a survey about the franchise, advising the survey would help the Bucks’ staff answer important questions as they plan for the 2011-12 season. The survey, which was sent out to season ticket holders and corporate partners first, was later made available to everyone via the team’s website.
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Some of the questions on the survey include preferred start times for weekday and weekend games, how many games people attended last season, why people may not have attended games and what the Bucks can improve on to enhance the game experience.

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05-15-2011, 07:12 PM
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You're not supposed to prove that your "opinion" is actually fact. That's cheating.
How did jackalsfan "prove" that his opinion that Prescott would not support an ECHL or AHL team is a fact?

All he proved was what the Sundogs drew last season, in a year where there was uncertainty about the team's future from the get-go.

2007-08, average over 4100 per game

http://www.pointstreak.com/prostats/...&seasonid=2103

2008-09, average over 3500 per game

http://www.pointstreak.com/prostats/...&seasonid=3080

In the last two seasons (2009-10 and 2010-11), attendance declined to the 2000's, but for both of those seasons, there was little marketing and a great deal of speculation about the team's future.

When the team is marketed properly, and there is no concern about the team's future, Prescott is a viable venue for an ECHL club. The AHL may well be a stretch, I agree... but an ECHL club can survive on an average attendance between 3500 and 4100 per game.

http://www.echl.com/stats/schedule.p...e&season_id=17

Nine of the ECHL's 19 clubs drew average crowds of under 4100 this year, and all the clubs who drew above 4100 on the average were located in cities that have had pro hockey for at least a decade (save for Ontario, California, which has a very large population to work with in their market).

That doesn't "prove" anything, of course, but I think it supports my opinion -- and the expressed opinion of someone with a lot more hockey business savvy than any of us here possess -- that Prescott is a viable option for an affiliated pro hockey club.

If a player could climb from Prescott through Tucson to Phoenix and play in the NHL, all three markets would benefit from this development path.

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05-15-2011, 07:43 PM
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How did jackalsfan "prove" that his opinion that Prescott would not support an ECHL or AHL team is a fact?

All he proved was what the Sundogs drew last season, in a year where there was uncertainty about the team's future from the get-go.

2007-08, average over 4100 per game

http://www.pointstreak.com/prostats/...&seasonid=2103

2008-09, average over 3500 per game

http://www.pointstreak.com/prostats/...&seasonid=3080

In the last two seasons (2009-10 and 2010-11), attendance declined to the 2000's, but for both of those seasons, there was little marketing and a great deal of speculation about the team's future.

When the team is marketed properly, and there is no concern about the team's future, Prescott is a viable venue for an ECHL club. The AHL may well be a stretch, I agree... but an ECHL club can survive on an average attendance between 3500 and 4100 per game.

http://www.echl.com/stats/schedule.p...e&season_id=17

Nine of the ECHL's 19 clubs drew average crowds of under 4100 this year, and all the clubs who drew above 4100 on the average were located in cities that have had pro hockey for at least a decade (save for Ontario, California, which has a very large population to work with in their market).

That doesn't "prove" anything, of course, but I think it supports my opinion -- and the expressed opinion of someone with a lot more hockey business savvy than any of us here possess -- that Prescott is a viable option for an affiliated pro hockey club.

If a player could climb from Prescott through Tucson to Phoenix and play in the NHL, all three markets would benefit from this development path.
Your right, I did not prove anything. But I did show signs that indicated it may not be likely. Thats all. Actually some AHL buildings(Binghamton for example sits at 4,700 some) so I guess the AHL isn't entirely out.

From what I understand apparently the Sundogs owners in 09-10 really ticked the league off. no idea what they did. Didn't they change ownership this season?

Your right a team could live in that range. However this is a significant drop. A drop in uncertainty is expected, but by 2,000 in 3 years? The whole league has some uncertainty at this point.

Also lets be fair here. in 07-08 they had a GOOD team and won it all. They have been dreadful since.

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05-15-2011, 11:03 PM
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Your right, I did not prove anything. But I did show signs that indicated it may not be likely. Thats all. Actually some AHL buildings(Binghamton for example sits at 4,700 some) so I guess the AHL isn't entirely out.

From what I understand apparently the Sundogs owners in 09-10 really ticked the league off. no idea what they did. Didn't they change ownership this season?

Your right a team could live in that range. However this is a significant drop. A drop in uncertainty is expected, but by 2,000 in 3 years? The whole league has some uncertainty at this point.

Also lets be fair here. in 07-08 they had a GOOD team and won it all. They have been dreadful since.
All good points, but none of that precludes the possibility of an affiliated team in Prescott Valley sometime soon. I don't know what the 2009-10 ownership did, but I do recall hearing that they irked the league in some way.

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05-16-2011, 04:16 AM
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Chris Brooks the head coach of the RGV Killer Bees has left the franchise to go coach a D3 program in Wisconsin:

http://www.krgv.com/sports/story/Kil...vDIy0Geyw.cspx

Hmm, you think this is a sign that the franchise is done? Remember awhile back he was unsure what he was going to do because the franchise itself didn't and they had no owner.

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