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Old
08-16-2005, 12:54 PM
  #26
Jester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb
Beech will not have more point than Primeau, he may not even make that team, still an absurd statement.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...le?statsId=538

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...id%5B%5D=29125

Beech put up 62 points last year in the AHL and he isn't going to be playing the type of role that Preems will be playing (read that as, "a role limiting his offensive output"), so i don't think it is that unreasonable to suggest that Beech may end up with more pts at the end of the year.

note that DOES NOT mean i think Beech is better player or anything of the sort.

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08-16-2005, 12:55 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
we don't have that much depth offensively... unfortunately.
Actually, it's pretty good, compared to most NHL teams.

The first line is likely going to be one of the best in the league. Even if Carter struggles, Knuble could be plugged in and do just fine. But Carter should do fine there, he's a perfect compliment to Gagne, and a pile of dog **** could score on passes from Forsberg.

The second line is very strong. Handzus will be a 60 point player this year, he had 58 last year, and with the new rules and linemates, that'll go up by at least two. Knuble is good for 20 goals or more. Radio is the only concern, but at the very least I think you could expect him to pot 15. If he gets 20, that would be a line full of 20 goal players, which is very good for a second line. That could potentially mean that the Flyers have 6 forwards scoring 20 or more goals. That's excellent.

The third line can score, if that is their role. NHL players do not forget how to score or to finish. Primeau and Kapanen both could score much more if they were in different roles. Primeau himself is an anomaly - who knows what he will score, but given his past, he most certainly has to be rated above Beech's offensive potential. Kapanen's speed alone makes him more threatening in the new NHL.

The flyers have one of the best forward cores in the NHL, and it will score accordingly.

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08-16-2005, 01:02 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...le?statsId=538

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...id%5B%5D=29125

Beech put up 62 points last year in the AHL and he isn't going to be playing the type of role that Preems will be playing (read that as, "a role limiting his offensive output"), so i don't think it is that unreasonable to suggest that Beech may end up with more pts at the end of the year.

note that DOES NOT mean i think Beech is better player or anything of the sort.
I doubt that he will even play a full year in the NHl this year and if he does will still not score more. Primeau is no dynamo but will have more by the end of the year and he will be counted on to contribute more goals this year without a doubt. His role is to stop the other teams but he will be counted on for some offense as well. Beech couldn't make the Pens when they had a bad team now with the people you added don't see him making it now all of a sudden, 62 point is nice but Peter White scores that every and it means squat unless you are a young prospect which Beech is not more of a suspect.

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08-16-2005, 01:04 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
Actually, it's pretty good, compared to most NHL teams.
obviously... i think we're going to walk over the division.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
The first line is likely going to be one of the best in the league. Even if Carter struggles, Knuble could be plugged in and do just fine. But Carter should do fine there, he's a perfect compliment to Gagne, and a pile of dog **** could score on passes from Forsberg.
the Pens first line is going to be better if Mario is healthy (and i think they'll nominally survive him not being there)... ours is going to be pathetic if Forsberg doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
The second line is very strong. Handzus will be a 60 point player this year, he had 58 last year, and with the new rules and linemates, that'll go up by at least two. Knuble is good for 20 goals or more. Radio is the only concern, but at the very least I think you could expect him to pot 15. If he gets 20, that would be a line full of 20 goal players, which is very good for a second line. That could potentially mean that the Flyers have 6 forwards scoring 20 or more goals. That's excellent.
Knuble was gathering production off of Thornton in Boston... do not forget this. Handzus is a great forward, but he is NOT Thornton in terms of passing. I think Knuble is going to be a good forward and contribute. Radio is a MAJOR concern. he's never done it... i think he can, i have high hopes and want to see him get the chance... but i wouldn't bet my life on it. This will be a solid line with a very good +/-, but that doesn't mean they are going to be terrifying teams when they come over the boards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
The third line can score, if that is their role. NHL players do not forget how to score or to finish. Primeau and Kapanen both could score much more if they were in different roles. Primeau himself is an anomaly - who knows what he will score, but given his past, he most certainly has to be rated above Beech's offensive potential. Kapanen's speed alone makes him more threatening in the new NHL.
Primeau has lost his finishing touch... a couple years ago he led the team in scoring chances and only notched 46 pts (19 goals). last time around his shooting pct. dropped to 8.1%. Kapanen's shoothing pct. the last two seasons was 5.3% and 8.1%... they've lost their touch at finishing. disregarding their role, when they DO have shots at the net, they ain't burying them as much as they have in the past.

Sharp and Radio are prolly going to see time on this line and the 2nd-line, then there is Stevenson who may play here some as well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
The flyers have one of the best forward cores in the NHL, and it will score accordingly.
middle of the pack... but they aren't going to let people score on them much either.

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08-16-2005, 01:06 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb
I doubt that he will even play a full year in the NHl this year and if he does will still not score more. Primeau is no dynamo but will have more by the end of the year and he will be counted on to contribute more goals this year without a doubt. His role is to stop the other teams but he will be counted on for some offense as well. Beech couldn't make the Pens when they had a bad team now with the people you added don't see him making it now all of a sudden, 62 point is nice but Peter White scores that every and it means squat unless you are a young prospect which Beech is not more of a suspect.
i'm expecting mid 30's from Primeau this year, more than that and i'll be very happy with his season... if he gets to 50 pts, we are going to win the division by 15 points.

if Beech plays the full year on a team that isn't going to be stressing their own end of the ice nearly as much... i think he's capable of 40 pts.

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08-16-2005, 01:09 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
i'm expecting mid 30's from Primeau this year, more than that and i'll be very happy with his season... if he gets to 50 pts, we are going to win the division by 15 points.

if Beech plays the full year on a team that isn't going to be stressing their own end of the ice nearly as much... i think he's capable of 40 pts.
Can Primeau get 50? Depends the skill is there, but like we have stated won't be primary focus but he should be good for minimum 15 goals and 25 asssist IMO. I guess we disagree with Beech, he gets 40 points would be very shocked, but I understand where your coming from.

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08-16-2005, 01:12 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
the Pens first line is going to be better if Mario is healthy (and i think they'll nominally survive him not being there)... ours is going to be pathetic if Forsberg doesn't.
The Pens would be pathetic just the same if they lost Lemieux.

Quote:
Knuble was gathering production off of Thornton in Boston... do not forget this. Handzus is a great forward, but he is NOT Thornton in terms of passing. I think Knuble is going to be a good forward and contribute. Radio is a MAJOR concern. he's never done it... i think he can, i have high hopes and want to see him get the chance... but i wouldn't bet my life on it. This will be a solid line with a very good +/-, but that doesn't mean they are going to be terrifying teams when they come over the boards.
I honestly have to question whether you read my post. Knuble scored over 30 goals with Thornton. Saying that he can score 20 with Handzus is not unreasonable - in fact it's realistic. Handzus scored 20 goals last season, so there is no reason to suggest he can't do it again. Radio has never really gotten a chance, but he has scored 12 goals before. I said he'll score at least 15 - I think that's very realistic considering this will be the best line he's ever played on for a considerable amount of time.

So basically, my predictions are accurate, and you did a lot of dancing around, but never denied it. That line will have at least 2 20 goal players, and very well could have 3. If they do, that would be very good for a second line in the new NHL.

Quote:
Primeau has lost his finishing touch... a couple years ago he led the team in scoring chances and only notched 46 pts (19 goals). last time around his shooting pct. dropped to 8.1%. Kapanen's shoothing pct. the last two seasons was 5.3% and 8.1%... they've lost their touch at finishing. disregarding their role, when they DO have shots at the net, they ain't burying them as much as they have in the past.
Specious logic. Players do not lose their ability without some type of input - whether it be age, injuries, or something else. Neither of these two have had those problems. Primeau's 22 points last season were the product of his role. If he were put on a scoring line with the objectice to score, he would do significantly better. As would Kapanen.



Quote:
middle of the pack... but they aren't going to let people score on them much either.
They'll be better than middle of the pack. It's now your job to name the 14 teams that are better offensively than the Flyers. Good luck.

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Old
08-16-2005, 01:30 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
The Pens would be pathetic just the same if they lost Lemieux
i'd rather be figuring out how to fill a hole with Crosby and Palffy attached to it than a hole with Carter and Gagne attached to it... just me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
I honestly have to question whether you read my post. Knuble scored over 30 goals with Thornton. Saying that he can score 20 with Handzus is not unreasonable - in fact it's realistic. Handzus scored 20 goals last season, so there is no reason to suggest he can't do it again. Radio has never really gotten a chance, but he has scored 12 goals before. I said he'll score at least 15 - I think that's very realistic considering this will be the best line he's ever played on for a considerable amount of time.

So basically, my predictions are accurate, and you did a lot of dancing around, but never denied it. That line will have at least 2 20 goal players, and very well could have 3. If they do, that would be very good for a second line in the new NHL.
remove the leading scorer who is a playmaker from Handzus' line and that will probably hurt his goal production some... Knuble is 33 and has score more than 20 goals twice in his career, and that just happened to occur while playing with one of the few players in the league capable of scoring 100 pts.

i'm not saying he's going to suck... and i actually expect him to get 20ish goals or so, but this isn't going to be a guaranteed offensive dynamo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
Specious logic. Players do not lose their ability without some type of input - whether it be age, injuries, or something else. Neither of these two have had those problems. Primeau's 22 points last season were the product of his role. If he were put on a scoring line with the objectice to score, he would do significantly better. As would Kapanen.
the fact that they are LESS LIKELY to score when they shoot the puck at the net over the last few years is not "specious logic," it's simple fact. yes, one would expect them to create less offense if they are concentrating on playing defense... as in, less chances. however, one would NOT expect their returns when chances are created to be diminished unless they have lost some ability at "finishing." which, sadly, the two of them have over the last couple of years....

Gagne has as well, hopefully that will turn around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
They'll be better than middle of the pack. It's now your job to name the 14 teams that are better offensively than the Flyers. Good luck.
well, 10 really, since that would put them in the middle of the pack... a point of note is that under a different coach this team would score more goals... always something to consider. it's a bit unfair to do it now, given that rosters aren't finalized... but the last time around with what i consider to have been a stronger offensive club, we were 8th in the league and i think we've regressed against the league a little bit as far as team scoring.

hopefully i'm wrong.

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Old
08-16-2005, 01:30 PM
  #34
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What is with all the comparions to the Pens?
The Pens are not going to compete for a cup this year. The debates should be how we stack up with the rest of the east? How about vs.Tampa, or the Debs?
How about the teams out west, like Calgary, Edmonton, with the moves they have made?
The pens are a few years away from mounting a serious challenge, and by the time they are, the aging vets they have (Mario, Recchi,LeClair,) will be long gone.

I don't understand the infatuation with the Pens? Will they be better? Sure they couldn't be any worse, but mario & LeClair are major question marks, with their past health issues. Crosby is just a kid, you can't expect him to be a major factor for a few years, the kid is only 18.

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08-16-2005, 01:37 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
doesn't friggin have to. no team is going to have the depth of talent that we saw the last few years of the NHL prior to the lockout... the entire purpose of the new CBA is to disperse the talent around the league and thus weaken the top 10 teams and strengthen the 10 bottom teams (a.k.a. your pens).

the question isn't, "but does forsberg add up to Recchi, Roenick, Leclair, and Amonte?" who the hell cares if it does? we aren't playing two years ago. we aren't matching up against the same teams we were two years ago. we're matching up against a bunch of completely different teams that have been constructed under the new CBA and we have to look at how we match-up against them now.

for example... how do we match-up against the pens?

scoring - pens may have a bit more punch here...
defense - we have a TON more punch here...
coaching -

thus, i'm pretty confident we can take down the pens.
The bottom line is the pens have made huge improvements on offense. Their D is questionable. Philly's offense is not nearly what it was last year. I know Carter and that other rook are supposed to be wonderful, but making up for losing 4 of the top 5 scorers is a little beyond them. Knuble had a good year with thornton and samsonov. ONE good year. As for the philly d improving, that is still up in the air. Hatcher was great before he blew out his knee, and could hold all the time. If (I know, a big if) the new rules on obstruction are enforced, you might as well have signed Kevin Hatcher. Rathje is much better, at least he can skate.

No one (except for a few crazies) thinks the pens will win the cup. 5-8 seed in the playoffs is more like it. But the gap between PIT and Philly is now a lot smaller than it was last season.

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08-16-2005, 01:46 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyers26
What is with all the comparions to the Pens?
The Pens are not going to compete for a cup this year. The debates should be how we stack up with the rest of the east? How about vs.Tampa, or the Debs?
How about the teams out west, like Calgary, Edmonton, with the moves they have made?
The pens are a few years away from mounting a serious challenge, and by the time they are, the aging vets they have (Mario, Recchi,LeClair,) will be long gone.

I don't understand the infatuation with the Pens? Will they be better? Sure they couldn't be any worse, but mario & LeClair are major question marks, with their past health issues. Crosby is just a kid, you can't expect him to be a major factor for a few years, the kid is only 18.
You would be correct, Ottawa is who we really should be concerned about!

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08-16-2005, 02:42 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb
You would be correct, Ottawa is who we really should be concerned about!
I'm only worried about two things with Ottawa; Hasek and the shootout. A healthy Hasek will probably let in one, maybe two breakaway goals. Match that up with their shootout line and they could very well steal a handful of games and along with that a division title.

They have a very good depth on the wings and are a good young team. They lack a playoff stud, serious tandem in goal, depth in the center position, depth in the back. I take it back, I'm not too worried about Ottawa at all. Tampa on the other hand...

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08-16-2005, 02:45 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Figgles
Why do all of these people, who are obviously jealous of what the flyers have done, insist on comparing the flyers current roster with the 03-04 roster and call the team overrated. Last time I checked the 05-06 flyers are not going to be playing the 03-04 flyers. Why won't these people compare our roster to the other teams in the league?
I would say for the most part that people are just trying to be analytical about the pluses and minuses. It's not jealousy - well, I for one am jealous as all hell that you got Forsberg, but that's besides the point - but a natural reaction to overzealous fans proclaiming these moves to be the key to Stanley. The reality is, there has been a huge turnover in the top end of the Flyers personnel and until a significant amount of games have been played, we'll not know how well the moves worked out.

Doesn't really matter what team you're talking about, anyone can pick apart the acquisitions or anoint them as saviours...depending on your bias towards said team and/or player. The Leafs picked up 3 former all-stars for next to nothing that are still young enough to produce, yet they can also be perceived as washed up, injury prone stiffs. Ottawa has played for a few years with the best team on the ice, but also with a mediocre goalie which promptly neutralized that advantage. They get Hasek and the reaction is hardly different than the Leafs acquisitions.

I say, let people speculate all they want and we'll all see what happens when the season starts. For the record, MPO is that Philly has sacrificed some depth but they've added some big time players so I can't say what effect that will have overall. I would imagine they are going to be more of a stingy team than an offensive powerhouse. Regardless, it will be a great battle between TB, Phi and Ott for the East.

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08-16-2005, 02:52 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
I'm only worried about two things with Ottawa; Hasek and the shootout. A healthy Hasek will probably let in one, maybe two breakaway goals. Match that up with their shootout line and they could very well steal a handful of games and along with that a division title.

They have a very good depth on the wings and are a good young team. They lack a playoff stud, serious tandem in goal, depth in the center position, depth in the back. I take it back, I'm not too worried about Ottawa at all. Tampa on the other hand...
Depth in the back? Are you talking 1-6 or injury replacements? Ottawa's defence is just as strong as Philly's and have played together for some time now. I think the biggest problem for Ottawa is having to play Toronto, Boston and Montreal 8 times each. Outside of NJ, the Flers don't have many tough games from their divison (sorry Pens fans but you will still have a dozen AHL'ers on your team)

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08-16-2005, 03:04 PM
  #40
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Ding Ding.....we have a winner.

Flyers will be the undisputed #1 seed in the East going into the playoffs due to their schedule. The playoffs will be much more wide open were any of 5 or 6 teams could represent the East.

You guys have a great chance, probably the best. However, you still have to play and win the games. Should be a fun year.

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08-16-2005, 03:18 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by o-dog
Depth in the back? Are you talking 1-6 or injury replacements? Ottawa's defence is just as strong as Philly's and have played together for some time now. I think the biggest problem for Ottawa is having to play Toronto, Boston and Montreal 8 times each. Outside of NJ, the Flers don't have many tough games from their divison (sorry Pens fans but you will still have a dozen AHL'ers on your team)
I'm talking about Injury Replacements. If Wade Redden should get injured I don't think that Ottawa has any defenseman that can jump in and pick up where he left off. The same could be said about Zdeno because he's an elite physical defenseman. They are a good group of players but like I said, if one of the top two goes down I don't see one of the others stepping up.

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08-16-2005, 05:37 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyers26
What is with all the comparions to the Pens?
The Pens are not going to compete for a cup this year. The debates should be how we stack up with the rest of the east? How about vs.Tampa, or the Debs?
How about the teams out west, like Calgary, Edmonton, with the moves they have made?
The pens are a few years away from mounting a serious challenge, and by the time they are, the aging vets they have (Mario, Recchi,LeClair,) will be long gone.

I don't understand the infatuation with the Pens? Will they be better? Sure they couldn't be any worse, but mario & LeClair are major question marks, with their past health issues. Crosby is just a kid, you can't expect him to be a major factor for a few years, the kid is only 18.

Took the words right out of my mouth, saved me a post !

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08-16-2005, 08:05 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
i'm not saying he's going to suck... and i actually expect him to get 20ish goals or so, but this isn't going to be a guaranteed offensive dynamo.
Wow, what are the odds? You agreed. You could have just saved us both a post and just said that you agreed with me.



Quote:
the fact that they are LESS LIKELY to score when they shoot the puck at the net over the last few years is not "specious logic," it's simple fact. yes, one would expect them to create less offense if they are concentrating on playing defense... as in, less chances. however, one would NOT expect their returns when chances are created to be diminished unless they have lost some ability at "finishing." which, sadly, the two of them have over the last couple of years....
Shooting percentage is the dumbest stat in hockey. By far. If you look at at face value, you have to assume that all the shots are of the same quality, same distance, etc for them to be comparable. If you've ever played hockey, you realize that you get far more chances to score if you're playing in an offensive role. When you have more chances, and it is your first priority, you're going to be more efficient. C'mon, we both know shooting percentage is another line of statistics that doesn't mean much - hockey isn't baseball. Iginla only had a shooting percentage of 11 when he scored 35 goals in 02/03 - I guess he just can't finish that well?

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well, 10 really, since that would put them in the middle of the pack
I assumed you meant literally, middle of the pack. As in 14-16. Considering their system, they could be around tenth, but I bet they'll be higher. I think the Flyers have virtually the same level of offense as they did before, if less it's only slightly - I think they've offset their losses quite well, and have more natural talent up front as opposed to aging veterans that have trouble scoring at all. But that's not the point; the point is that most teams in the East have gotten worst up front, which moves the Flyers up a bit.

But, it's irrelevent, the Flyers strategy is team defense anyway, which they do very well. Can we both agree that the defense is improved "on paper?"

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08-16-2005, 10:00 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyers26
What is with all the comparions to the Pens?
The Pens are not going to compete for a cup this year. The debates should be how we stack up with the rest of the east? How about vs.Tampa, or the Debs?
How about the teams out west, like Calgary, Edmonton, with the moves they have made?
The pens are a few years away from mounting a serious challenge, and by the time they are, the aging vets they have (Mario, Recchi,LeClair,) will be long gone.

I don't understand the infatuation with the Pens? Will they be better? Sure they couldn't be any worse, but mario & LeClair are major question marks, with their past health issues. Crosby is just a kid, you can't expect him to be a major factor for a few years, the kid is only 18.
The whole Pens thing started on their board with a "Flyers are overrated" thread and predictions of a "cup run" for the Penguins. They're giddy with girlish excitement and think defense does not matter anymore. They were about to lose the team to another city because their fans don't support them and buy tickets unless they're good.

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08-16-2005, 10:20 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Beech > Primeau
According to my roommate, a lifetime, die-hard Penguins fan and long-time hfboards lurker, as well as someone who would run over any established veteran to play a prospect, responded to that statement with the following:

"CRAP. Beyond CRAP"

So, hey, that's your opinion, but I'm just throwing in a quote from the other side. We still have much love for Jester.

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08-16-2005, 10:38 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaineer
The whole Pens thing started on their board with a "Flyers are overrated" thread and predictions of a "cup run" for the Penguins. They're giddy with girlish excitement and think defense does not matter anymore. They were about to lose the team to another city because their fans don't support them and buy tickets unless they're good.
There was one poster on the pens board that was talking about a cup run. If you look at the rest of the thread, everyone else was telling him it was bull****.

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08-16-2005, 10:43 PM
  #47
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wow watch the hating on Jester, the guy is stating an unpopular opinion, but he does have facts and stats, kudos on a position well defended.

let's look at Ottawa and Philly.

Philly


Gagne-Forsberg-Carter
Knuble-Handzus-Radivojevic
Kapanen-Primeau-Sharp
Sim-Richards-Stevenson

Johnsson-Desjardins
Rathje-Pitkanen
Hatcher-Seidenberg

Esche
Niittymaki

Ottawa (I'm not a Sens fan, so just drawing it up how I would)

will they keep Bondra?

Hossa-Spezza-Alfreddsson
Vermette-Smolinski-Havlat
Schaefer-Fisher-Neil
Varada-van Allen-Langfeld

Redden-Philips
Chara-de Vries
Simpson-Volchenkov

Hasek
Emery

Note for Ottawa, I'm not really sure what they are doing, especially with the 4th line or what the Bondra situation is.

I think Ottawa has more talent overall at the forward position. Philly probably does have better defensive players there, but Ottawa's scoring is nearly unmatched.

Defense is really tough, but I'll give the tiniest of edges to Philly. I like Johnsson a whole lot, maybe even more than Redden I think. I also like Desjardins in the new rules, his passing skills should really help him out. Rathje is overpaid, but very solid and Pitkanen really should continue to progress. Hatcher is also the big-time intimidator that maybe Ottawa doesn't quite have. Seidenberg has mastered the AHL and he's done well in the NHL before, I think he's ready.

I think it's goaltending where Philly has the big edge. Hasek I think will end up having to play a lot of games. TO isn't bad, Boston is downright good, and Montreal is good. I don't rate Emery that much yet.

I think I do take PHI in a 7 game series, but I could be biased.

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Old
08-16-2005, 11:01 PM
  #48
Gags1288
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I've heard Ottawa's going to have to unload at least Schafer and De Vries to be able to get Hossa under contract. Now with the Lecavalier contract, they might to unload Redden because Hossa is till asking for nearly 7 mil per. We'll have to see what the finished projects are, but Tampa and Ottawa will at best stay the same as they are now and there's a high probability that Lecavalier and Hossa will force each team to get worse. At any rate, this is certainly the final year that the core of Redden, Chara, Spezza, Havlat, Hossa, Alfredsson will be together. They could very well lose one of those defenseman and Hossa, so we'll just have to wait and see. That being said, they do have some very solid young defenseman in Mezsarjos (sp?) and Lee.

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Old
08-17-2005, 07:01 AM
  #49
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Middle of the pack offensive wise Jester???

My friend, that is absolutely crazy!! Philly is stacked....indeed, their
isn't one team forwards I would take over Philly's (only Ottawa may
merit consideration but our depth is far better)....

Really, how could you think that 14 teams are going to have a greater
output then the Flyers?? Hell, I thought before we got Forsberg we
were easily one of the best teams offensively.......and now we have
vastly improved on that!!

For sure, the Flyers are in the top 5........I think people are forgetting
in all of the Forsberg hoopla that Carter and Richards are destined to be
Stars in this league and even in their first years, these 2 will do wonderfully
Especially Carter.......

The only thing that could hold them back is some ultra conservative defence
system set up by Hitch and I hope that that will not be the case.....let these
boys fly!!

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Old
08-17-2005, 12:24 PM
  #50
Jester
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testing...

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