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Are we an attractive team for FA's now?

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Old
05-18-2011, 01:37 PM
  #26
Miller Time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperUnknown View Post
Tax rate in New York at highest bracket is 35% US Federal tax + 7% NY State Tax + 3% NY Municipal income tax = 45%.

In Quebec, combined taxes can reach 52% I believe (it's 48% up to around 125k where canadian federal taxes get bumped up 4%).

On a $5M salary, it would be about $350k if you're a US Resident. If you're a canadian and have permanent residency in the province of Quebec (say a house), then you still pay 52% even though you play in NY.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenIceHit View Post
At the US federal Level, the tax rate is 35% if your income is more than $373,650 according to :

http://www.moneybluebook.com/2010-fe...irs-tax-rates/

And in the state of New York, it would another 8% if your income in greater than $200,000 according to :

http://www.tax-rates.org/New_York/income-tax/

For a maximum total of 43%. So about 5% more than here in Quebec.

At $5,000,000, you pay about $250,000 more in Quebec.

With our dollar being stronger than theirs and the price of housing way cheaper than in New York, I think taxation rate in Quebec is no longer an excuse.

either way, I think this shows why Taxes are likely NOT a big factor in the free agent game.

every year you see several athletes take a "home town discount" where they often leave much more than 200-300K on the table to play in an environment they are comfortable in.

Glencross did it this week to stay in Calgary, where the weather is just as bad and the city has far less to offer.

while pro sports is a business, hockey players are not "business men", at least not first and foremost.
they are athletes first, and the years of training and sacrifices they make on their way to the NHL is not done simply to maximize on their pay day (at least not the kind of players you want on your team

sports and lifestyle... those are the priorities of most...

where is their best fit as an athlete (chance to win, chance to play the role they want, chance to play with quality/complementary linemates), and where is the best fit for their lifestyle choices (family, hobbies, city vs rural bias etc).


imo the weather and the language are much bigger barriers than the taxes, and the weather is not much worse than most of the other markets, and the language issues are more than balanced by the cultural benefits of a metropolitan centre like montreal.

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05-18-2011, 01:38 PM
  #27
Markowicz
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We're definitely much more attractive then we once were, but i think that because of injuries over the last few years, most ufa's still don't see this team as a real contender. They look at our team that has a great goalie and nice players, but no awesome forwards that they would really want to play with.
We know how good we can be, of course, but as someone else said, i dont think we can lure the big names here, not just yet. Personally i don't think we need the biggest names, that we're building a very good core here--but the question was about how attractive we are to the big name guys. Here's a list of teams i think would be more attractive than us, in no particular order:

Washington
Pittsburgh
Detroit
Chicago
San Jose
Philadelphia
Boston
Tampa Bay
NY Rangers
Vancouver


I think we're on par with the L.A. Kings, St. Louis Blues and the Anaheim Ducks.

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05-18-2011, 02:08 PM
  #28
RC51
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Originally Posted by OpenIceHit View Post
Exactly! And guys like Lecavalier and St-Louis will be unknown and forgotten by the future generations whereas we still remember guys who played for the Habs a long time before most of us where born.

Look at superstars like Perreault and Dionne. We know them because we are hockey fans but if you talk about them to the average hockey fan, they might not know them even if they were among the best players of their time.
Yes Lecavalier and St-Louis were both were wanted by Tampa and both were first given a chance by Tampa but when there contracts were over, both chose the palm tree over their blood, their DNA, their own people. They wanted MONEY and PALM TREES. Both showed NO honor to their own, just to the GOD OF MONEY. So there it is , that's who they are, greedy, shallow, and heartless ****** to the GOD OF MONEY and their own personal comfort.
If I am at war and stuck in a fox hole I don't want either of them watching my back.

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05-18-2011, 02:14 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by RC51 View Post
Yes Lecavalier and St-Louis were both were wanted by Tampa and both were first given a chance by Tampa but when there contracts were over, both chose the palm tree over their blood, their DNA, their own people. They wanted MONEY and PALM TREES. Both showed NO honor to their own, just to the GOD OF MONEY. So there it is , that's who they are, greedy, shallow, and heartless ****** to the GOD OF MONEY and their own personal comfort.
If I am at war and stuck in a fox hole I don't want either of them watching my back.
huh... it's not like we have more (Quebec born) frenchies than TB (even without the addition of MAB and Gagné) so... if anything, they're still playing in a "french environnement", so to speak...

as for St Louis, he may have simply chosen to keep playing for the only team that was willing to give him a chance to play in this league on a regular basis... and a team he also won a cup with... I see no dishonor in that, at all.

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05-18-2011, 02:46 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC51 View Post
Yes Lecavalier and St-Louis were both were wanted by Tampa and both were first given a chance by Tampa but when there contracts were over, both chose the palm tree over their blood, their DNA, their own people. They wanted MONEY and PALM TREES. Both showed NO honor to their own, just to the GOD OF MONEY. So there it is , that's who they are, greedy, shallow, and heartless ****** to the GOD OF MONEY and their own personal comfort.
If I am at war and stuck in a fox hole I don't want either of them watching my back.
Me neither man, I'd want actual trained military for that

This sounds like one of my typical rants about stuff I don't like but even more extreme.

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05-18-2011, 02:55 PM
  #31
Harry Wong
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Montreal has the highest taxes, federal Provincial and municipal combined; Dallas probably has the lowest.

If this is your long awaited payday, freeagency finally, maybe 5 years left in your career, and you are offered $5,000,000 per season for the next 5 years as not even a top tier FA:

In Montreal you pay at least 50% of your taxable income to government and in Texas with no state income tax you pay for easy figuring 25%.

Do the math. Then think about how much the french language, the fans and the press really play into a players decision about where he should play.

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05-18-2011, 02:58 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC51 View Post
Yes Lecavalier and St-Louis were both were wanted by Tampa and both were first given a chance by Tampa but when there contracts were over, both chose the palm tree over their blood, their DNA, their own people. They wanted MONEY and PALM TREES. Both showed NO honor to their own, just to the GOD OF MONEY. So there it is , that's who they are, greedy, shallow, and heartless ****** to the GOD OF MONEY and their own personal comfort.
If I am at war and stuck in a fox hole I don't want either of them watching my back.
To be fair with St-Louis, he's a Nordics fan.

Waddaya expect...

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05-18-2011, 03:08 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
To be fair with St-Louis, he's a Nordics fan.

Waddaya expect...
Yeah, or maybe they want to stay where they've played for how many years? Where their families probably live? Children go to school with their friends?

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05-18-2011, 03:19 PM
  #34
Harry Wong
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With the tax situation, the only way we can be competetive is to overpay for the free agents we do get and thats in effect what Gainey did with the Gomez trade.


Last edited by Harry Wong: 05-18-2011 at 03:28 PM.
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Old
05-18-2011, 04:07 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Wong View Post
Montreal has the highest taxes, federal Provincial and municipal combined; Dallas probably has the lowest.

If this is your long awaited payday, freeagency finally, and you are offered $5,000,000 per season for the next 5 years as not even a top tier FA:

In Montreal you pay at least 50% of your taxable income to government and in Texas with no state income tax you pay for easy figuring 25%.

Do the math. Then think about how much the french laguage, the fans and the press really play into a players decision about where he should play.

Duplicat post. Mods please remove.
The way it is with all the media coverage, think it's too much of a circus for frenchies to play here... just think of how much exposure guys like Lapierre and Latendresse got compared to the Plekanec or Camm for example (despite the non-frenchies being way better players)...

and the Theodore picture in his entrance (garage ?), the one of Koivu at the hospital, all the whining, that you have the luck to understand fully since you speak both french and english...

I mean, I'm pretty sure the Fleury, Talbot and co thought it was OK to give interviews at a restaurant and all during our PO serie against them... not too sure they'd like it if it was 24/7 for 9 months a year though.

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Old
05-18-2011, 04:09 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Wong View Post
With the tax situation, the only way we can be competetive is to overpay for the free agents we do get and thats in effect what Gainey did with the Gomez trade.
The tax issue is overblown. It's a crappy excuse. And there are a ton of ways to get some chunk of money back, just hire a great accountant and I'm sure they all have amazing ones.
Second, it's not like we pay 50%, and elsewhere, it's 10%. There's only a few cities where the taxes are quiet low, and they aren't premiere free agent attractions.
NYC who's always been a big attractive city according to most, have taxes very close to ours.

The most important thing for any self-respecting is the team. 99% of the players in the NHL have reached that level in dreams of winning the cup. So, if Colombus, Atlanta and Rhode Island, had dynasties going now, they would be premiere spots for UFAs.

I think the biggest aspect against us is the media coverage of this team. It's the same in Toronto. There are some players that do not want to be even more stressed by playing in a city that can call you a hero one day, and a zero the following one.
It's perfectly understandable, and I don't consider anybody that would prefer playing elsewhere because of that a coward. I, myself, probably would get annoyed by the media coverage. I think that's our biggest disadvantage.

After that, perhaps language, but you can easily get by in english here. For the kids, private english schools are available.
The weather, it's freaking hockey, a winter sport. If you have an issue with snow and cold, you're in the wrong sport.

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Old
05-18-2011, 04:25 PM
  #37
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I think people make too big a deal when it comes to taxes. I work with High Net Worth executives and porfessionals and I know that there are legal ways to subvert the tax code and minimize the tax bill. There are a host of strategies and structures that can be employed to minimize the taxes that everyone else pays.

So don' think that if the tax code says the they are in the 46% tax bracket that the governemet takes that much, they don't.

Also, at the end of the day, a million more a million less is how most players see it anyways. An example is 2 houses. House A is in a nice neighborhood, great schools, no crime and with nice neighbors that you and your family like and want to live in. House B is an identical house in a crappy nieghborhood, has bad schools, a higher crime rate and terrible neighbors with lower municipal taxes. House A is $500,000 and house B is $475,000. Which one would you buy if you could easily offerd both?

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Old
05-18-2011, 04:27 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I think people make too big a deal when it comes to taxes. I work with High Net Worth executives and porfessionals and I know that there are legal ways to subvert the tax code and minimize the tax bill. There are a host of strategies and structures that can be employed to minimize the taxes that everyone else pays.

So don' think that if the tax code says the they are in the 46% tax bracket that the governemet takes that much, they don't.

Also, at the end of the day, a million more a million less is how most players see it anyways. An example is 2 houses. House A is in a nice neighborhood, great schools, no crime and with nice neighbors that you and your family like and want to live in. House B is an identical house in a crappy nieghborhood, has bad schools, a higher crime rate and terrible neighbors with lower municipal taxes. House A is $500,000 and house B is $475,000. Which one would you buy if you could easily offerd both?
if that was the case, LOTS of players would take "discount" to play where they want. Most dont.

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Old
05-18-2011, 05:08 PM
  #39
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It's gotten much better for sure, but I think once we add some toughness it will get even better.

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05-18-2011, 05:15 PM
  #40
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Im not sure how the effects of the taxes weigh in on a players choice of playing in Montreal. But if it's a big detriment, then we should have a higher cap space......for the sake of fairness.

In any event....If we cant pay the players because of cap then we need to heavily outperform teams in other areas where the cap is not a factor...........namely drafting.

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05-18-2011, 06:12 PM
  #41
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It's gotten much better for sure, but I think once we add some toughness it will get even better.
Best post in the entire thread.

Talented forwards do appreciate having someone willing to stand up for them during a game.

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05-18-2011, 06:13 PM
  #42
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FA's want to play for the Rangers because it's New York City.

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05-18-2011, 06:15 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by McSorleyStick View Post
Income tax

Long winters

Media pressure


I would say no
Well, on the bright side when somebody DOES decide to play with us you could say that he is doing it because he knows what he is signing up for...either that or he is insane.

But honestly, even with the negatives you mentioned, I think it is much more appealing now than it was 2 or 3 years ago simply because it's fun to play for the fans. Like I said, the guys that sign here will breathe hockey and that's good.

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05-18-2011, 06:37 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by McSorleyStick View Post
Income tax

Long winters

Media pressure


I would say no
These are the three that come to my mind also...that being said, the lure of the Habs is still very strong for most...

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05-18-2011, 06:49 PM
  #45
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The Oilers have the lowest provincial income tax in Canada, and look how attractive they are to UFAs.

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05-18-2011, 06:54 PM
  #46
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The Oilers have the lowest provincial income tax in Canada, and look how attractive they are to UFAs.
exactly, they have to sue players to play for them

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Old
05-18-2011, 07:23 PM
  #47
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
if that was the case, LOTS of players would take "discount" to play where they want. Most dont.
I disagree with that.

The biggest priority for most athletes is their career. "fit" as an athlete (role, roster, coaching, cup chances) is probably as or more important than any other factor. (obviously a massive salary difference would hold more weight, but how many teams really outbid the market by massive amounts?)

The $ isn't important just bc of the bottom line, it's also about perceived "respect" or value for both team and player... A team that offers a player a huge raise and chunk of their cap is also saying "we believe in you this much" which is music to the ears of individuals with big ego's (any elite athlete has a big ego, which is NOT the same as saying they are necessarily egotistical).

Detroits brilliant "lidstrom" policy was an ingenious way to encourage other star players to take less without it reflecting poorly on their ego.

We have no idea how many players turn down more $ to play where they want to, be it via hometown discount or signing elsewhere.

Briere didn't take a "hometown" discount, but he did take less money to go where he did... I bet a very large chunk of players do that every year... Especially players on their 2nd+ ufa contract

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05-18-2011, 07:53 PM
  #48
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IMHO, the tax debate is fallacious at best : it's just one more reason given to the press when X player doesn't sign with us.

If you add commercial spots, exposure and sponsoring revenue, it balances out easily (if not surpasses) compared to, say... Dallas, which has almost no hockey exposure.

Still: the media pressure over here is something to be reckoned with!

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Old
05-18-2011, 08:44 PM
  #49
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QFT
agreed we have depth

no need to grossly overpay

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Old
05-19-2011, 01:33 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC51 View Post
Yes Lecavalier and St-Louis were both were wanted by Tampa and both were first given a chance by Tampa but when there contracts were over, both chose the palm tree over their blood, their DNA, their own people. They wanted MONEY and PALM TREES. Both showed NO honor to their own, just to the GOD OF MONEY. So there it is , that's who they are, greedy, shallow, and heartless ****** to the GOD OF MONEY and their own personal comfort.
If I am at war and stuck in a fox hole I don't want either of them watching my back.
I suppose that as soon as they are able, Price should sign with the Vancouver Canucks, Subban should sign with the Toronto Maple Leafs, and Pacioretty should sign with the New York Rangers, even if Montreal offers a huge contract.

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