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Old
05-18-2011, 10:49 PM
  #26
etherialone
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The Parade already happened 25.

Nobody called me either.

I heard that there was a peeing contest and everything.


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05-18-2011, 11:06 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
When is the parade?
It's going to be down 5th Avenue around 2AM - make sure that you are there with lots of cash and no defenses

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05-18-2011, 11:12 PM
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It's going to be down 5th Avenue around 2AM - make sure that you are there with lots of cash and no defenses
Now see I was told that it got moved to hope street but the time is right.

It ends up in Venice.

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05-18-2011, 11:16 PM
  #29
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The biggest problem I have with articles like this is that they favor the players recently drafted over prospects that have been around for a few years - only natural, until you go back and read what was written about the other guys before.

Hickey has gone from a "can't miss #2 or #3 prospect" to #8 on the chart. Reading the things written about him 2 or 3 years ago, he was bordering on elite. The organizational ranking was based on that as well as other players (Teubert) who aren't here anymore. Now, apparently, he sucked anyway, so who cares - but that's what the old organizational rating was based on.

Now it's Schenn, Voynov, etc. instead of Hickey, Teubert, whoever. It seems like the rating remains about the same, but only the faces change. What makes the new analysis any more credible than the old one was?
I get what you're saying but I sort of look at it as when Hickey and Teubert were drafted, they were slated to be keys to the Kings future. As time has progressed, Hickey has struggled because of his injuries and Teubert just sucked (from what I've read at least in the past. Not sure how he did this year though as much). Then we have guys like Schenn who have destroyed juniors and guys like Slava who has played better than Hickey (again probably has a lot to do with injuries but I don't think anyone can dispute otherwise) putting them higher on the list than the other two. You also have to look at our risers. Loktionov at 4? Look at the past rankings. He was a lot lower coming out of the draft as a 5th rounder and then once he's showed that he has the skill and flashes of ability to play at an NHL level has moved him up to where he is now. Look too at guys like Martinez who was completely overshadowed by the "big names" per se and has shown what he can do, moving him up the list (FYI I don't agree with his at all. He's proved he can play in the NHL). Martin Jones was an undrafted free agent in a team where we had a guy (Quick) emerge as our starter over the last few years and a guy like Bernier who was a first round pick and Jones is now 9th and making a name for himself playing extremely well in the AHL. While I do totally get what you are saying, I just think people slipping is attributed to what they have shown so far, which is why Hickey and Teubert would be ranked lower than others. I'm not defending HF's article at all but I just think it has to be a bit of both mixed in there and it's not just because Schenn is a newer and shinier toy than Hickey.

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05-19-2011, 12:00 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by cnshockey View Post
I get what you're saying ...
No offense, but I'm not sure you do CNS ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP View Post
It seems like the rating remains about the same, but only the faces change. What makes the new analysis any more credible than the old one was?
... to me at least, THIS is PSP's point of it all, the WE'VE BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD BEFORE but have Never seen the "Promised Land Highway" of the annual HF Prospect rating analysis.

What PSP is getting at is that ...

This year it's ... Schenn, Forbort, Toffoli, Weal, Kitsyn, Deslauriers, Vey, etc.
Last year it was ... Teubert, Voynov, Czarnik, Wudrick, Loktionov Hickey, Moller
The year before it was ... Bernier, Hickey, Moller, Simmonds, Lewis, Ryan, etc.
Before that it was ... Quick, Fast, Hersley, McGinnis, Tukonen, Lukacevic
Before that it was ... Brown, Boyle, Tambellini, Pushkarev, Grebeshkov
Before that it was ... Cammalleri, Frolov, Lehoux, Karlsson, Steckel, Lilja, Petiot, Rome, Huet
Before that it was ... Pavel Rosa, Aki Berg, Corvo, Kaberle, Barney, Parros, Storr, etc and on and on and on ...

Point being, for MANY years the Kings supposedly had a wealth of talented prospects that were going to have an impact on the Kings, if not the NHL, and help lead us to a Stanley Cup ... well, as Bon 'PSP' Jovi put it , "it's all the same, only names and faces change ... yet it seems we're wasting away". In the end it's nice to have a highly rated prospect pool, but the only result that matters is the final one, and we've been teased before, and are still left waiting for our first Cup.

Note ... I'm not trying to be all 'PSP' pessimistic even though I'm sure it's coming off that way, I think it's great we've got the #1 ranked prospect pool as well as a current team that's a playoff level caliber team ... it should make for a strong bright future. Just we've seen it before, or at least close to it, only to have it mean nothing and then be torn down, called crap and be rebuilt yet again ... we'll see if we stay on path and can get better results this time.

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05-19-2011, 12:12 AM
  #31
Josh Deitell
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PSP, I think what you're referring to is more an issue of the Kings developmental troubles than the lack of talent in our system. We've had quality prospects for quite a while but they've had a tough time making it to the NHL. Tukonen, for example, was widely considered to be a Kopitar-like steal but didn't quite pan out, although he's turning into a decent player now.

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05-19-2011, 12:19 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Puck U View Post
No offense, but I'm not sure you do CNS ...

... to me at least, THIS is PSP's point of it all, the WE'VE BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD BEFORE but have Never seen the "Promised Land Highway" of the annual HF Prospect rating analysis.

What PSP is getting at is that ...

This year it's ... Schenn, Forbort, Toffoli, Weal, Kitsyn, Deslauriers, Vey, etc.
Last year it was ... Teubert, Voynov, Czarnik, Wudrick, Loktionov Hickey, Moller
The year before it was ... Bernier, Hickey, Moller, Simmonds, Lewis, Ryan, etc.
Before that it was ... Quick, Fast, Hersley, McGinnis, Tukonen, Lukacevic
Before that it was ... Brown, Boyle, Tambellini, Pushkarev, Grebeshkov
Before that it was ... Cammalleri, Frolov, Lehoux, Karlsson, Steckel, Lilja, Petiot, Rome, Huet
Before that it was ... Pavel Rosa, Aki Berg, Corvo, Kaberle, Barney, Parros, Storr, etc and on and on and on ...

Point being, for MANY years the Kings supposedly had a wealth of talented prospects that were going to have an impact on the Kings, if not the NHL, and help lead us to a Stanley Cup ... well, as Bon 'PSP' Jovi put it , "it's all the same, only names and faces change ... yet it seems we're wasting away". In the end it's nice to have a highly rated prospect pool, but the only result that matters is the final one, and we've been teased before, and are still left waiting for our first Cup.

Note ... I'm not trying to be 'PSP' pessimistic even though I'm sure it's coming off that way, I think it's great we've got the #1 ranked prospect pool as well as a current team that's a playoff level calibar team ... it should make for a strong bright future. Just we've seen it before, or at least close to it, only to have it mean nothing and then be torn down, called crap and be rebuilt yet again ... we'll see if we stay on path and can get better results this time.
But but but...

Squid Frolov Steckel Lijla Rome AND Huet all play(ed) in the NHL.

Brown Boyle and Tambellini all play in the NHL and Grebeshkov did until a sick family member saw him return home to play.

Quick is an elite goalie

and now to what matters to me...

Bernier, Moller, Simmonds, Lewis, are all currently on our own NHL roster (Moller is likely gone but until it gets the official announcement) and Hickey is still an exceptional NHL prospect who is simply taking the correct amount of time to develop as opposed to the astonishing early risers that we are being spoiled by.

The rest of the DL draft picks that you mention (excluding Hickey and Moller because you had already mentioned them and I had already addressed them) are either on their way, here or will be within the next season or two.

While I agree that we have all heard this line before over and over we haven't heard it from one of the greatest scouting/drafting GM's of his generation. I may not agree with DL all the time as a GM but you will be hard pressed to find his equal for turning picks/free agents into NHLer's. There are a few out there but not many.

How many times have we been able to say that our up and coming kids ended the season as the leading scorer's of their league's? It happens but not often at all. How many of them were considered to be the best in the world outside of the NHL? Again it has happened over the years but not often.

Finally how many of them have happened to be so great all at once and *not* just because we think so but because the entire NHL and almost all of its pundits think the exact same way? That hasn't happened in a long time.

We have seen an unprecedented amount of our own draft picks/prospects and free agents all make it on to our team and even more will be here next year.

I agree entirely that there is a ton of reason to be cautious but not as many as there have been in the past. I guess you can believe it as you continue to see it but I hope you can start seeing it soon.

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Old
05-19-2011, 12:30 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
PSP, I think what you're referring to is more an issue of the Kings developmental troubles than the lack of talent in our system. We've had quality prospects for quite a while but they've had a tough time making it to the NHL. Tukonen, for example, was widely considered to be a Kopitar-like steal but didn't quite pan out, although he's turning into a decent player now.
If they were truly quality NHL prospects, they would have made it to the NHL - in spite of the lack of development.

Where is Tukonen turning into a decent player? If it isn't in the NHL, unfortunately it doesn't count...

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05-19-2011, 12:34 AM
  #34
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Did DL draft Tukonen?

I forgot.

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05-19-2011, 12:39 AM
  #35
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DT drafted Tukonen.

He had a very good season in Finland last year.

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05-19-2011, 12:39 AM
  #36
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Did DL draft Tukonen?

I forgot.
Drafted in 2004 - definitely DT

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05-19-2011, 12:42 AM
  #37
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DT drafted Tukonen.

He had a very good season in Finland last year.
For the record, this isn't Finland. He's played 5 games in the NHL, then ran to Finland. I'm sure that he's a great guy, but until he benefits the Kings, he is a non-factor...

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05-19-2011, 12:46 AM
  #38
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Then I don't think it is right to use past GM's picks to determine a current GM's impact on the team when it comes to the area we are discussing.

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05-19-2011, 12:52 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
If they were truly quality NHL prospects, they would have made it to the NHL - in spite of the lack of development.

Where is Tukonen turning into a decent player? If it isn't in the NHL, unfortunately it doesn't count...
I just noted that he's playing well because most people probably haven't kept track of him, not as a point of argument.

It takes a lot more than talent or tools to get to the NHL. If that were the case, Nikita Filatov would be a top line winger. The Kings have seriously mismanaged some prospects in the last few decades. Storr, for example, was rushed in to provide the "franchise goalie" we were sorely lacking. Tukonen was expected to contribute too soon. Brian Boyle was shifted back and forth between F/D. The Kings are getting better at handling young players but even still, guys like Moller and possibly Voynov look to be headed overseas, and that's bad for their value. Plenty of kinks to still be worked out.

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05-19-2011, 12:54 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Then I don't think it is right to use past GM's picks to determine a current GM's impact on the team when it comes to the area we are discussing.
The point is that Tukonen was used extensively in the previous organ-eye-zation's evaluations. He was one of the reasons why they had a top 5 rating in previous seasons.

Let's just hope that Toffoli is not the same as Tukonen or Lehoux or Rosa or (insert much hyped prospect here)...

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05-19-2011, 12:56 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
The point is that Tukonen was used extensively in the previous organ-eye-zation's evaluations. He was one of the reasons why they had a top 5 rating in previous seasons.

Let's just hope that Toffoli is not the same as Tukonen or Lehoux or Rosa or (insert much hyped prospect here)...
Tukonen was renowned as a prospect well beyond the borders of the Kings front office and HF rankings, though. Obviously it's just speculation but I have to wonder how things would have turned out for him had he been involved with an organization like Detroit.

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05-19-2011, 12:57 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
I just noted that he's playing well because most people probably haven't kept track of him, not as a point of argument.

It takes a lot more than talent or tools to get to the NHL. If that were the case, Nikita Filatov would be a top line winger. The Kings have seriously mismanaged some prospects in the last few decades. Storr, for example, was rushed in to provide the "franchise goalie" we were sorely lacking. Tukonen was expected to contribute too soon. Brian Boyle was shifted back and forth between F/D. The Kings are getting better at handling young players but even still, guys like Moller and possibly Voynov look to be headed overseas, and that's bad for their value. Plenty of kinks to still be worked out.
I've never agreed with that, all though it seems to be the general consensus around here.

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05-19-2011, 01:08 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
The biggest problem I have with articles like this is that they favor the players recently drafted over prospects that have been around for a few years - only natural, until you go back and read what was written about the other guys before.

Hickey has gone from a "can't miss #2 or #3 prospect" to #8 on the chart. Reading the things written about him 2 or 3 years ago, he was bordering on elite. The organizational ranking was based on that as well as other players (Teubert) who aren't here anymore. Now, apparently, he sucked anyway, so who cares - but that's what the old organizational rating was based on.

Now it's Schenn, Voynov, etc. instead of Hickey, Teubert, whoever. It seems like the rating remains about the same, but only the faces change. What makes the new analysis any more credible than the old one was?
There was a conscientious effort to avoid that in this instance. Naturally a guy is going to better define his ceiling and his role as he goes forward, there is no avoiding that. Someone who played in all situations and quarterbacked the power play as an eighteen-year-old with big numbers is probably going to whittle down his role and show a clearer indication of his potential production in the AHL, for example.

In the Kings' case, Bernier was obviously a bigh push for them, a guy who has NHL experience and plenty of AHL games under his belt. Guys like Muzzin, Loktionov and Schenn, who got some NHL experience, were also factors in both their depth and top-tier evaluation. Toffoli and Vey, the biggest CHL performers, were considered more as depth than top-end talent. So I really don't see that dynamic at play in this particular evaluation.

Depth and accomplishments at higher levels were considerations throughout. Those things helped teams like Toronto and probably hurt teams like Colorado in these rankings.

As for Hickey, I don't know, I thought he was a reach when he was drafted and I haven't seen much out of him competing against NHL'ers. He's still plenty young but I'd consider him a notable face in the crowd more so than a big selling point today.

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05-19-2011, 01:20 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
The point is that Tukonen was used extensively in the previous organ-eye-zation's evaluations. He was one of the reasons why they had a top 5 rating in previous seasons.

Let's just hope that Toffoli is not the same as Tukonen or Lehoux or Rosa or (insert much hyped prospect here)...
The answer is in much hyped by whom.

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05-19-2011, 02:00 AM
  #45
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Not by me.


I didn't see Rosa as having enough hockeysense to be able to become a top level sniper in the league but still believe that there was more to him then we ever got to see. Some kids melt down.

Yanik played a bit but then he was never as good as proclaimed by some of our faithful.

To this very day I am stunned by what happened with Tukonen. It is fair to say that he was clearly rushed into the league way too soon but there was something else wrong.

The reason that you can't judge DL's picks against other regimes are many but the key one is that this regime values character above most all else from the kids that they bring into the org where previous GM's always went after what they were told to be the most talented. That is hit and miss work at best and while some of them got it right from time to time none of them have shown the same level of skill at finding players who are both talented and of sound character as DL imo.

It is sort of arguing apples and persimmons to me but in the end PSP and others are right in viewing all prospects with caution.

I am not saying that anyone is wrong in how they see things, only that DL has done an astonishing job and we are only starting to see the results so it will take time to see if there are any real grounds to make a fair comparison between him and past GM's,

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05-19-2011, 02:28 AM
  #46
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But but but...
kinda the point ... that I made, and I thought PSP was making though, is that while it's great that the Lombardi era of Kings Prospects are rated #1 ... it don't mean squat until the Kings Win a Stanley Cup.

Sure DL drafts great ... but you're post above proved my point that so did Taylor for the most part, though a few exceptions crept in, as evidence by how many of his picks have had successful to at least semi-successful NHL careers, and in fact many of Taylor's picks are still part of our current Kings. But in the end what did that get us ? NOT A CUP.

For as great as Lombardi drafts ... what did that get the Sharks ? NOT A CUP.

All I'm saying is, that while it's great to have such a promising prospect pool, there's obviously much more involved in putting together a successful Stanley Cup Championship hockey club, and until we reach that who's to say this group of kids ain't like the last group of kids, that was like the last, that was like the one before it, that was like the one's Lombardi drafted for San Jose ...

in closing we agree about it more than we disagree about it Tonellisghost, I was just trying to get across what I thought PSP was saying, as I remember it being said before, pull out the INTERNET-way-back-machine and read some of the hype and projected success our prospect pool was suppose to reap in years gone bye from HF, and it does beg to question, WHY is THIS group any better than Dave Taylor's group, or WHY is THIS group any better than Lombardi's SHARK's groups of prospect ... neither have a CUP to their name ... at least YET

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05-19-2011, 03:24 AM
  #47
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Someone should do a chart tracking each team's HF ranking with final standings. There might be a relationship there, but it can't be very strong. I mean, if the Kings' experience isn't enough, look at Florida. They always seem to be near the top, but haven't done much of anything.

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05-19-2011, 04:25 AM
  #48
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The top 3 teams all seem to have strong defence and goaltending, 2 positions that take a while to develop. Blum, Hickey, and Bernier still prospects. I think that might skew things in favor of teams with stronger defence/goalie prospects.

And also, goalie prospects are notoriously difficult to rate potential wise.

Also, take a look at a guy like Forbort, who hasn't done anything to justify being forecasted as a top shelf prospect. He has a lot of work ahead of him to make the NHL. Personally, I do not have Forbort forecasted to make the NHL - not yet.

Prospects are just players with potential. Its really tough making the NHL. Why is it depressing if only 2-3 prospects make the NHL, even if hfboards glorified it 5 years ago? (like i said, its tough making the NHL). So HF was wrong. Their rankings are questionable, we get it. Kings will continue to suck. good grief guys.

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05-19-2011, 08:30 AM
  #49
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Every offseason, I just LOVE this thread.


Add the 4th: Pride = Passion = Power = POTENTIAL!!!

We're #1!! We're #1! the rest of the NHL can suck it!

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05-19-2011, 09:52 AM
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Well, I can tell you this. The kind of approach that gives you one excellent chance involves much more risk than the one that provides multiple opportunities. It also leads to the kind of bust we all witnessed in the post-Gretzky years.

Absolutely! I got really worried when they kept trading away our youth & draft picks to surround Gretzky with the players (and coaches!) that Gretzky wanted. Disgusted with the Nichols trade, frustrated with the Zhitnik trade, I gave up all hope after the Robitaille trade. I left fandom in 1994/5 and didn't come back until Andy Murray was coach. What a terrible, terrible period in Kings history. Disgusting!!!

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