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Old
05-19-2011, 02:00 PM
  #51
Quattro
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I don't recall Tukonen being "rushed" at all.

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05-19-2011, 02:07 PM
  #52
Josh Deitell
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Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
I don't recall Tukonen being "rushed" at all.
Expectations were too high. It was the same problem with Storr.

It wasn't, "take your time, we have a decent, stable team and don't need you to contribute right away," it was, "the ship is sinking and we need you to help bail it out as soon as possible."

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05-19-2011, 02:16 PM
  #53
Andrew Knoll
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Originally Posted by agentfouser View Post
Someone should do a chart tracking each team's HF ranking with final standings. There might be a relationship there, but it can't be very strong. I mean, if the Kings' experience isn't enough, look at Florida. They always seem to be near the top, but haven't done much of anything.
That's true of every list in every sport. You usually develop high-level prospects through high draft choices (bad teams) and most teams at the top of the draft are perpetually there it seems.

If you follow baseball, surely you've heard about the "stacked" systems of Pittsburgh, Kansas City and Washington several times. Going back further, the Padres and the Expos, and they really WERE stacked, they just couldn't keep their players.

Same thing with the Blue Jackets and Panthers of the world. You see some teams that can have it both ways, a solid system and a winning team (Detroit, Nashville) but not that many.

The teams that are successful rebuilding through high picks call up their guys, improve and then fall down into the middle of the pack from graduations and a stripped system (Pittsburgh, Washington). Other teams just stay in re-load mode, like the Flyers are and the Rangers wanted to be at one point. I guess in many ways it wouldn't even be desirable to consistently be atop the rankings.

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Old
05-19-2011, 02:41 PM
  #54
The Tikkanen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
Expectations were too high. It was the same problem with Storr.

It wasn't, "take your time, we have a decent, stable team and don't need you to contribute right away," it was, "the ship is sinking and we need you to help bail it out as soon as possible."
I saw Tukonen play in person at the WJC's in Vancouver years ago and wasn't impressed. First thing that came to mind was a slower version of Frolov and we've seen what happened with his career. The problem with scouting is there is no way to judge the mental aspect of the game. I know football has the wonderlic test, does hockey have anything like that to judge a players smarts? I know it's not a science but some sort of mental test to make sure these guys aren't complete idiots?

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05-19-2011, 03:48 PM
  #55
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I'm pretty sure they do extensive questioning/interviewing at the combine. That should be enough to tell whether someone is an idiot or not.

What's more difficult to determine is a player's work ethic and commitment. How bad to they want it? Are they mature enough to handle the situation? How do they carry themselves? These are all very important factors in determining whether or not a player will make a successful NHLer.

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05-19-2011, 06:04 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Every offseason, I just LOVE this thread.


Add the 4th: Pride = Passion = Power = POTENTIAL!!!

We're #1!! We're #1! the rest of the NHL can suck it!
I totally agree!! It's awesome to have our depth recognized by others. My elation will be tenfold when we bring home the cup.

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05-19-2011, 06:11 PM
  #57
Ziggy Stardust
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
I saw Tukonen play in person at the WJC's in Vancouver years ago and wasn't impressed. First thing that came to mind was a slower version of Frolov and we've seen what happened with his career. The problem with scouting is there is no way to judge the mental aspect of the game. I know football has the wonderlic test, does hockey have anything like that to judge a players smarts? I know it's not a science but some sort of mental test to make sure these guys aren't complete idiots?
I recall scouts commenting on Tukonen's play during the WJC and whether or not his linemates, Petteri Nokelainen and Lauri Korpikoski, were the better players. Looking at them now, Korpikoski is the most successful of the three and the only one who is still an active player in the NHL. He scored 19 goals and 40 points this past season with Phoenix.

I wanted the Kings to take Drew Stafford at the 2004 draft. He read like a player that the Kings needed at the time and a player they can use now.

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Old
05-19-2011, 06:30 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I recall scouts commenting on Tukonen's play during the WJC and whether or not his linemates, Petteri Nokelainen and Lauri Korpikoski, were the better players. Looking at them now, Korpikoski is the most successful of the three and the only one who is still an active player in the NHL. He scored 19 goals and 40 points this past season with Phoenix.

I wanted the Kings to take Drew Stafford at the 2004 draft. He read like a player that the Kings needed at the time and a player they can use now.
I wanted Stafford too. He was such a dynamic kid. Oh well, you can't get em all right.

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Old
05-19-2011, 06:50 PM
  #59
Mike The Franchise
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We should package some prospects and a roster player player or two to get a STAR player, we have the depth in our prospect pool so we can do it as long as we don't trade Schenn which Im sure will be the asking price.

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05-19-2011, 07:21 PM
  #60
Quattro
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
Expectations were too high. It was the same problem with Storr.

It wasn't, "take your time, we have a decent, stable team and don't need you to contribute right away," it was, "the ship is sinking and we need you to help bail it out as soon as possible."
But Tukonen barely played in the NHL (5 games) and played 3 full seasons in Manchester. Expectations may have been high at first but it isn't like he was rushed to the show and forced to play on a bad team like maybe Storr was. I fail to see any fault on the Kings part in his lack of development unless it was poor coaching in Manchester...

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05-19-2011, 07:46 PM
  #61
etherialone
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Originally Posted by Kovalchuk89 View Post
We should package some prospects and a roster player player or two to get a STAR player, we have the depth in our prospect pool so we can do it as long as we don't trade Schenn which Im sure will be the asking price.
This is what I believe we will do this offseason. Like most other people I have heard allot of rumors of our doing exactly this during this offseason.

A deal sending Smyth north would be a very smart one for us and would open up the space needed to for us to bring in that star.

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05-19-2011, 08:17 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Kovalchuk89 View Post
We should package some prospects and a roster player player or two to get a STAR player, we have the depth in our prospect pool so we can do it as long as we don't trade Schenn which Im sure will be the asking price.
Stars, especially the right kind of stars tend to not be very available. Why would they be? The Kings need a Nash type guy. These guys are awfully hard to pry away from their teams. A lot of pieces must fall into place.

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Old
05-19-2011, 09:49 PM
  #63
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A lot of pieces must fall into place.
Isn't that the real difference between adequate GMs and good GMs? The good ones are able to make the pieces fall the way they want - or at least they are around to take advantage of the situation.

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05-19-2011, 09:54 PM
  #64
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I'd like to thank all the genius' that came into the thread to remind people "not every prospect makes it"....cause before these words of wisdom were spoken I thought the Kings had a teams worth of HOF's sitting in the minors........

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05-19-2011, 11:29 PM
  #65
Mike The Franchise
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Originally Posted by KingLB View Post
I'd like to thank all the genius' that came into the thread to remind people "not every prospect makes it"....cause before these words of wisdom were spoken I thought the Kings had a teams worth of HOF's sitting in the minors........
Which is why we should package a few of them to get what we need.

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05-19-2011, 11:37 PM
  #66
KingLB
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Originally Posted by Kovalchuk89 View Post
Which is why we should package a few of them to get what we need.
"Stars" are not traded unless there is something wrong with them, like wanting out/team rebuilding/bad contract/etc....so unless you see that out there "picks/players" can only get you a certain caliber of player.

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Old
05-20-2011, 12:00 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by KingLB View Post
"Stars" are not traded unless there is something wrong with them, like wanting out/team rebuilding/bad contract/etc....so unless you see that out there "picks/players" can only get you a certain caliber of player.
What was wrong with Gretzky?

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Old
05-20-2011, 12:02 AM
  #68
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What was wrong with Gretzky?
His owner?

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Old
05-20-2011, 12:57 AM
  #69
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His owner?
I agree (or maybe his wife ), but that wasn't his contention. He said that ""Stars" are not traded unless there is something wrong with them..."
- so what was it?

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05-20-2011, 01:01 AM
  #70
KingLB
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
I agree (or maybe his wife ), but that wasn't his contention. He said that ""Stars" are not traded unless there is something wrong with them..."
- so what was it?
I say something, and you have to go back 22 years to prove me wrong....Yup sure showed me....

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Old
05-20-2011, 02:19 AM
  #71
Mike The Franchise
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Parise?

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Old
05-20-2011, 02:46 PM
  #72
Josh Deitell
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Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
But Tukonen barely played in the NHL (5 games) and played 3 full seasons in Manchester. Expectations may have been high at first but it isn't like he was rushed to the show and forced to play on a bad team like maybe Storr was. I fail to see any fault on the Kings part in his lack of development unless it was poor coaching in Manchester...
The way I look at it, it seemed pretty clear that Tukonen, after playing a couple lackluster years in Manchester, was not going to become the top six scorer the team was looking for, but rather than being satisfied with turning him into a bottom-six secondary scoring type, they kept trying to push him into that role, for lack of a better option. Maybe mismanaged would have been a better word than rushed.

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Old
05-20-2011, 04:45 PM
  #73
johnjm22
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I think both Storr and Tukonen were handled fine. Some guys just don't pan out.

There's a lot of variables that can affect a players development though.

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Old
05-20-2011, 05:30 PM
  #74
KINGS17
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Isn't that the real difference between adequate GMs and good GMs? The good ones are able to make the pieces fall the way they want - or at least they are around to take advantage of the situation.
Is Nash married?

Has he impregnated a reporter that follows the team in Columbus?

Point is you CAN take advantage of a situation, but you CAN'T create one where one doesn't exist. Without the "situation" in Edmonton, I doubt the Oilers make that trade without Perry coming their way instead of Lupul. The Ducks were just lucky at the time to have the right assets to take advantage of the situation. Dean could do the same today if something similar were to happen.

Again, players like Pronger and Nash aren't available that often.

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Old
05-20-2011, 05:32 PM
  #75
KINGS17
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What was wrong with Gretzky?
I don't think there was anything wrong with him, but the Oilers pretty much showed that he wasn't the singular glue that was holding it together.

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