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Old
05-20-2011, 06:29 PM
  #76
Ziggy Stardust
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
I think both Storr and Tukonen were handled fine. Some guys just don't pan out.

There's a lot of variables that can affect a players development though.
Pretty much. I think there was also a lack of tutelage for some of those players. The Kings were young. The veterans didn't want to give up their spots and the younger players were pretty much on their own. Storr, Berg, Jokinen, etc. are examples of promising prospects that were given a spot on the team rather than earning it. Berg felt entitled to a spot, just look at how he held out after his ELC expired. The Kings never had the greatest development system, not until Manchester came into existence.

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05-20-2011, 07:23 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Well, I can tell you this. The kind of approach that gives you one excellent chance involves much more risk than the one that provides multiple opportunities. It also leads to the kind of bust we all witnessed in the post-Gretzky years.
... It didn't have nearly as much to do with how that team was built as much as it had to do with the owner defrauding banks and not having anywhere near the money he claimed to have. THAT is what was most responsible for the bust in the mid- to late-90s: poor ownership.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that the Kings were building some great young team and all of a sudden the trade for Gretzky and the subsequent deals in that era ruined all of that. That's bull.

The Kings had four young players forming their core in 1988 - Carson, Robitaille, Nicholls, and Duchesne. They only traded one of the four in 1988, and that was for the greatest player of all time. Then they traded Nicholls - who was 28 at the time of the trade - for Sandstrom and Granato, who were both 25. They traded Ken Baumgartner and Hubie McDonough, both 26, for 24-year-old Mikko Makela.

The Kings developed three young defensemen during the Gretzky era. Blake, Sydor, and Zhitnik. The Kings developed a second line center during this era, too - Todd Elik.

Sure, the Kings made some deals for older players, but in nearly every case those deals worked out well for them. Elik was dealt for Randy Gilhen, who was in turn dealt for Corey Millen, a superior player to Elik. Also in the Elik deal, the Kings got Charlie Huddy and the pick to acquire Zhitnik. Makela was traded for Mike Donnelly, a superior player. Duchesne was dealt for Kurri, which made sense given that the Kings were breaking in young defensemen, and Dave Taylor was at the age where he couldn't be expected to be a top six winger any longer. The Kings traded Mark Fitzpatrick for Kelly Hrudey, a superior goalie.

There was a balance to the Kings' acquisitions during that time. They were bringing in some experienced players, but they were trading for and plugging in younger players too.

Sure, they lost four first rounders to acquire Gretzky and Coffey. Can you remember the players that were selected with those picks? Martin Rucinsky, Jason Bowen, Nick Stajduhar, and Jason Miller. HORRIFIC loss right there.

That 92-93 team that won the Campbell Conference was a very good team. They faced the Flames and the Canucks in the playoffs - two strong teams, and pretty much rolled them over. They had enough left in them to keep playing well for a few more years, if the Kings had been allowed to keep that roster intact. Instead, they had to strip it because of the ownership issues. Coffey, gone. Sandstrom, gone. Millen, gone. All within a year. Granato got hurt and was never the same player again. And that was the beginning of the end for that team.

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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I don't think there was anything wrong with him, but the Oilers pretty much showed that he wasn't the singular glue that was holding it together.
... What does this even mean??? It's a team game. He was the best player and MVP of the league on four Cup teams, and won two Smythe trophies. What more did he need to do, in your eyes?

The first four Edmonton Cups were dominant teams with huge regular seasons that were punctuated by strong playoff performances. The fifth was a case of a team that wasn't dominant at all, but got hot at the right time and won as the underdogs. I don't see where that reflects badly on Gretzky in any way.

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05-20-2011, 08:36 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
...The Kings traded Mark Fitzpatrick for Kelly Hrudey, a superior goalie.

... What does this even mean??? It's a team game. He was the best player and MVP of the league on four Cup teams, and won two Smythe trophies. What more did he need to do, in your eyes?

The first four Edmonton Cups were dominant teams with huge regular seasons that were punctuated by strong playoff performances. The fifth was a case of a team that wasn't dominant at all, but got hot at the right time and won as the underdogs. I don't see where that reflects badly on Gretzky in any way.
LOL, you called Hrudey a superior goalie. He was better than Fitzpatrick though.

What does it mean? Exactly what is says. Did I say it reflected badly on Gretzky? Sounds more like I was paying a compliment to the other Oilers.

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05-20-2011, 08:56 PM
  #79
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I know JT isn't going to like this, but ...

Gretzky was the most skilled and the best player in the NHL.

Messier was the most important player on his team - more important to the success than Gretzky.

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05-20-2011, 09:01 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
I know JT isn't going to like this, but ...

Gretzky was the most skilled and the best player in the NHL.

Messier was the most important player on his team - more important to the success than Gretzky.
Do you have any statistics to back that up?









Well, other than Messier being a key player on two teams that won a cup after Gretzky left Edmonton.

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05-20-2011, 09:07 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Do you have any statistics to back that up?









Well, other than Messier being a key player on two teams that won a cup after Gretzky left Edmonton.
That pretty much overrides everything else for me

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05-20-2011, 09:22 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
I saw Tukonen play in person at the WJC's in Vancouver years ago and wasn't impressed. First thing that came to mind was a slower version of Frolov and we've seen what happened with his career. The problem with scouting is there is no way to judge the mental aspect of the game. I know football has the wonderlic test, does hockey have anything like that to judge a players smarts? I know it's not a science but some sort of mental test to make sure these guys aren't complete idiots?
They don't have any IQ test, but the prospects, particularly the top ones, go through extensive interviews. Sometimes multiple times.

The best example I can think of, immediately, comes from Gare Joyce's book Future Greats and Heartbreaks. There was a good deal in there about Phil Kessel, and how his mannerisms, question dodging, casting blame on others had some scouts thinking there were maturity issues with him.

Granted, he grew up, not all do. I'm thinking him getting testicular cancer might have woken him up a bit.

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Old
05-20-2011, 09:39 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Hendrydoso View Post

on the oiler board we are holding a mock draft and here is a trade I did--I was the leafs

Los Angeles trades Jonathan Bernier, Wayne Simmonds, Derek Forbort, Andrei Loktionov, & Thomas Hickey to Toronto for Luke Schenn

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05-20-2011, 09:49 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
on the oiler board we are holding a mock draft and here is a trade I did--I was the leafs

Los Angeles trades Jonathan Bernier, Wayne Simmonds, Derek Forbort, Andrei Loktionov, & Thomas Hickey to Toronto for Luke Schenn
That's alot of assets for a glorified shut down defensemen.

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05-20-2011, 10:02 PM
  #85
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That's alot of assets for a glorified shut down defensemen.
I'm pretty sure he was kidding.

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Old
05-20-2011, 10:06 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by KingLB View Post
That's alot of assets for a glorified shut down defensemen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoKingsGoo View Post
I'm pretty sure he was kidding.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=912532




http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=913569

on the oiler board we never joke

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05-20-2011, 10:17 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
Whatever happen to that BryanBroil character...basically lived here for 2 monthes before Penner, now doesn't even come by to say hi.....

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Old
05-20-2011, 10:23 PM
  #88
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Whatever happen to that BryanBroil character...basically lived here for 2 monthes before Penner, now doesn't even come by to say hi.....
he is a mod and he has been chained up back on the oiler board for awhile

we only let him off his chain to visit other boards once a year--we feel it is better that way

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05-20-2011, 10:36 PM
  #89
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I stopped reading after the second trade.

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05-20-2011, 10:44 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
I know JT isn't going to like this, but ...

Gretzky was the most skilled and the best player in the NHL.

Messier was the most important player on his team - more important to the success than Gretzky.
... LOL. Hey - opinions are just that. I can agree to disagree, but you won't hear me say anything but great things about Messier. He was an unbelievable competitor.

I just think Gretzky was too, in his own way. He didn't try to be Messier, because he knew he wasn't. He just went out and did what he did best. We'll never know who was more important to that group. I remember something that Mike Bossy said about those Oilers ... he said "It wasn't just Gretzky, or Messier, or Coffey, or Fuhr, or Anderson, or Lowe, or Kurri - it was all of them, together." Well, in 1990 the Oilers had Messier - but they still also had Anderson, Kurri, Lowe, Ranford, Tikkanen, Klima, Simpson, MacTavish, Graves, Steve Smith; it just went on and on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Well, other than Messier being a key player on two teams that won a cup after Gretzky left Edmonton.
... A key player, yes. Did he drag his teams to the finals, like Gretzky practically did?

When the Oilers won in '90, Ranford won the Smythe. When the Rangers won in '94, Leetch won it. If the Kings had won in '93, there would have been no doubt whatsoever who would win the Smythe; in fact, there was a good argument to be made that he should have won it anyway - even though he was on the losing team.

Again, not disparaging Messier. Just telling it like it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
LOL, you called Hrudey a superior goalie. He was better than Fitzpatrick though.
... Hrudey was so underrated. When you consider that he played behind an offensive-based team that tried to win wide-open hockey games, he was pretty damned solid, and yes - superior. He was top 10 in the NHL in save percentage as a King three times; a feat only matched by Vachon in team history.

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05-20-2011, 10:48 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by GoKingsGoo View Post
I stopped reading after the second trade.
we enjoy ourselves greatly on the oiler board

I think the place if funner then Disney world on any given day

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05-20-2011, 10:50 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
we enjoy ourselves greatly on the oiler board

I think the place if funner then Disney world on any given day
Yeah sounds like a good time.

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05-20-2011, 10:51 PM
  #93
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That made me cry.

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Old
05-21-2011, 12:17 AM
  #94
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That made me cry.

hope it was tears of laughter and insanity

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05-21-2011, 02:33 AM
  #95
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Martinez is still way underrated. Deslauriers and Hickey should not be ranked higher than him. Voynov is arguable.

Holloway also underrated.

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05-21-2011, 01:29 PM
  #96
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What's with the wide-range of comparisons for Schenn? I was watching a mayorsmanor video, and he was compared to Mike Fisher of all people.

Wasted pick if that is the end result.

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Old
05-21-2011, 11:46 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Martinez is still way underrated. Deslauriers and Hickey should not be ranked higher than him. Voynov is arguable.

Holloway also underrated.
Hey, I overrate every Kings player.

Someday, that will pay off.

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05-21-2011, 11:52 PM
  #98
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If Schenn only turns out to be a Mike Fisher clone than......Wow what a wasted pick, and Development time.

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05-22-2011, 12:03 AM
  #99
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LOL @ the Spezza for Kopitar trade.


edit: You know what? I take that back.....you completely destroyed the team lmao. Johnson for Mitchell, Huskins?


Last edited by Martyros: 05-22-2011 at 12:09 AM.
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05-22-2011, 12:15 AM
  #100
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LOL @ the Spezza for Kopitar trade.


edit: You know what? I take that back.....you completely destroyed the team lmao. Johnson for Mitchell, Huskins?
Don't know why people are in love with Spezza.

Last Three years.

GP 82 G 32 A 41 P 72 -14
GP 60 G 23 A 34 P 57 0
GP 62 G 21 A 36 P 57 -7
The last two years he has produced Dustin Brown numbers, And we all know how much everyone loves Brown around here (Rolls eye's).

He is no longer an Elite player. And his D is not even in the realm of Kopitar.

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