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For those that think the Habs are a bad drafting team.

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Old
05-21-2011, 10:10 AM
  #1
Talks to Goalposts
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For those that think the Habs are a bad drafting team.

Check out the thread on the main board about assembling a team solely from your team's draft picks. The one I came up with follows:

Pacioretty-Plekanec-A. Kostitsyn
Latendresse-Riberio-Grabroski
S.Kostitsyn-S. Koivu-Ryder
Higgins-Lapiere-Perezoghin
D'Agostini, Chipchura, White

Markov-Subban
Streit-Robidais
McDonagh-Beachemin
Komisarek, Hainsey

Price
Vokoun
Halak

Team with this kind of defense, goaltending and forward depth would easily compete for the Eastern Conference championship. Compare it to other teams posted on the main board and I think you'll find that they are largely inferior to this squad. If anything, the Habs have excercised bad asset management rather than poor drafting.

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Old
05-21-2011, 10:19 AM
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FlyingKostitsyn
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I think the main problem with our drafting is that the Habs have produced a lot of NHL players, true, but few big stars. Hopefully this will change with Subban, Price and perhaps Pacioretty.

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Old
05-21-2011, 10:44 AM
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googlymoogly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I think the main problem with our drafting is that the Habs have produced a lot of NHL players, true, but few big stars. Hopefully this will change with Subban, Price and perhaps Pacioretty.
They do tend to be weak at picking in first round but find gems in later ones.

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Old
05-21-2011, 10:53 AM
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BLONG7
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Drafting is a little above avg....it's the player development that sucks...also the lack of patinece by the fans and media...

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Old
05-21-2011, 11:03 AM
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Nicko999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by googlymoogly View Post
They do tend to be weak at picking in first round but find gems in later ones.
At least we're slowly learning how to draft in the first round:

00: Ron Hainsey, Marcel Hossa
01: Mike Komisarek, Alexander Perezhogin
02: Chris Higgins
03: Andrei Kostitsyn
04: Kyle Chipchura
05: Carey Price
06: David Fischer
07: Ryan McDonagh, Max Pacioretty
09: Louis Leblanc
10: Jarred Tinordi

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Old
05-21-2011, 11:03 AM
  #6
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I think the main problem with our drafting is that the Habs have produced a lot of NHL players, true, but few big stars. Hopefully this will change with Subban, Price and perhaps Pacioretty.
Drafting big stars is rare out of the very top of the draft and the one time the Habs have drafted top 5 the got a top talent in Price. I'd say that getting the big star outside of the top 3-5 picks is more a matter of good fortune than skill. After all a star has to be drafted by some one, who gets him is a bit random. If the teams that drafted big stars actually had a superior eye for talent then that would also show up in the amount of players drafted rather than just a couple great players. Volume of NHL players produced is a much better gauge of drafting skill then who ended up with which star. Anahiem is given as an example of a team that's drafted star players but if you look at their history, players like Ryan, Getzalf, Perry and Fowler were pretty much no-brainers at the time and they lack real players outside their top group.

Also, from the years 2001-2007 (2009,2010 are to early to judge), the only first rounder that has failed to make the NHL is Fischer. If you look at other teams record they're usually just as or more spotty than the Habs.

Finally Markov is a top-tier defenseman and Riberio and Plekanec are bonefid top-line, if not elite, forwards. So the top talent isn't completely lacking.

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Old
05-21-2011, 11:06 AM
  #7
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It's really too bad management is allowed to make deals outside of drafting. lol. It we were stuck with the players we selected we would be better off than the we are with the players we acquired for many off these selections.

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Old
05-21-2011, 11:15 AM
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There are quite a few better teams than that on the main board. I find there is too many "meh" players like Higgins, Laps, Beauchemin, Komi etc.

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05-21-2011, 11:22 AM
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WeThreeKings
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The Habs are bad at drafting in the 1st round and bad at developing prospects.

At the very least, we're bad at disciplining prospects, teaching them, helping them mature and waiting for them to break out.

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Old
05-21-2011, 11:23 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by Peekay Zubban View Post
There are quite a few better teams than that on the main board. I find there is too many "meh" players like Higgins, Laps, Beauchemin, Komi etc.
Name them.

The meh players are legit NHLers and look at where they are on the depth chart. Lapiere and Higgins are 4th liners and Beauchemin and Komisarek are 3rd pairing or injury reserve. The forward group is average but the defense is better then just about anyones although Chicago's about equal and the goaltending is absurdly good.

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Old
05-21-2011, 11:35 AM
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Monctonscout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I think the main problem with our drafting is that the Habs have produced a lot of NHL players, true, but few big stars. Hopefully this will change with Subban, Price and perhaps Pacioretty.
Name me a team that has drafted more than 4-5 "big stars". The only one that comes to mind that wasn't last place 3-4 years is Detroit.

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Old
05-21-2011, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
The Habs are bad at drafting in the 1st round and bad at developing prospects.

At the very least, we're bad at disciplining prospects, teaching them, helping them mature and waiting for them to break out.
I wouldn't say they are bad at developing prospects. I'd say they are just bad at asset management.

It's an organization built upon class and they expect the same from prospects and young players. Unfortunately some of these prospects have shown a lack of class and were taken off the team. I understand why some people have a problem with it. But the crop of prospects we have now pretty much all have character, they just need to be given a shot.

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Old
05-21-2011, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
I wouldn't say they are bad at developing prospects. I'd say they are just bad at asset management.

It's an organization built upon class and they expect the same from prospects and young players. Unfortunately some of these prospects have shown a lack of class and were taken off the team. I understand why some people have a problem with it. But the crop of prospects we have now pretty much all have character, they just need to be given a shot.
The point where that has hurt the Habs the most was trading Riberio. If they had kept him then there would have been no need to trade for Gomez. Sergei is replaceable but a geniune 1a/1b center is a rare commodity. Grabrovski is a lesser example of the same but isn't nearly as good of a player.

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05-21-2011, 11:58 AM
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le_sean
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
The point where that has hurt the Habs the most was trading Riberio. If they had kept him then there would have been no need to trade for Gomez. Sergei is replaceable but a geniune 1a/1b center is a rare commodity. Grabrovski is a lesser example of the same but isn't nearly as good of a player.
Ribeiro had to go, he was a ********. The problem was getting washed up Janne Niinimaa for him. They probably would have been better served with a 2nd or 3rd round pick instead.

But who really knows what other GMs were offering.

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Old
05-21-2011, 12:05 PM
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Melvin Udall
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Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
At least we're slowly learning how to draft in the first round:

00: Ron Hainsey, Marcel Hossa
01: Mike Komisarek, Alexander Perezhogin
02: Chris Higgins
03: Andrei Kostitsyn
04: Kyle Chipchura
05: Carey Price
06: David Fischer
07: Ryan McDonagh, Max Pacioretty
09: Louis Leblanc
10: Jarred Tinordi

Good points.

IMHO, the 'killer' was the 2003 draft - maybe the 2nd best draft year in the history of the NHL Draft with Habs selecting #10 overall.

In that 1st round Flyers got Richards and Carter; Anaheim got Getzlaf and Perry (granted both teams had 2 selections) and a number of other teams got at least 1 outstandding player.

Bruins took Mark Stuart 1st round and Bergeron in round #2.

Habs can't affird to draft poorly in a strong draft year and expect to compete!

But.......Habs got AK46 first round (sure he was 'highly rated' - but 9 teams passed on him) and Cory Urquhart in round #2 - on the ice they are paying for it today.



What if this is...as good as it gets?

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Old
05-21-2011, 12:08 PM
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Melvin Udall
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
The Habs are bad at drafting in the 1st round and bad at developing prospects.

At the very least, we're bad at disciplining prospects, teaching them, helping them mature and waiting for them to break out.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

An organizational problem?



What if this is....as good as it gets?

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Old
05-21-2011, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Melvin Udall View Post
Good points.

IMHO, the 'killer' was the 2003 draft - maybe the 2nd best draft year in the history of the NHL Draft with Habs selecting #10 overall.

In that 1st round Flyers got Richards and Carter; Anaheim got Getzlaf and Perry (granted both teams had 2 selections) and a number of other teams got at least 1 outstandding player.

Bruins took Mark Stuart 1st round and Bergeron in round #2.

Habs can't affird to draft poorly in a strong draft year and expect to compete!

But.......Habs got AK46 first round (sure he was 'highly rated' - but 9 teams passed on him) and Cory Urquhart in round #2 - on the ice they are paying for it today.



What if this is...as good as it gets?
At least the habs got a top 6 forward out of it. New York, Long Island and Edmonton ended up with basically nothing because their 1st rounders were busts. San Jose only got Michalek who isn't as good as Kostitsyn off the 6th pick. Pittsburg wasted the first overall on a non-elite goalie. Columbus used 4th overall on Zherdev. Horton, who isn't all that great of a player, went 3rd. Washington only got Fehr and Atlanta only got Coburn from 8th overall, who they ended up trading for a UFA. Tampa Bay, Detroit and Toronto got nothing from not having the picks to do so. Ottawa drafted late and only got Eaves.

Habs fans need to quit their moaning about the 2003 draft. It wasn't great for Montreal, but half the league had it worse.

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05-21-2011, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
If anything, the Habs have excercised bad asset management rather than poor drafting.
Yup...

For a team that has drafted as well as we have the past ~10 years, we been remarkably bad at managing our roster

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05-21-2011, 12:58 PM
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I don't think we have a problem with drafting. I think we have more of a problem of integrating them into the team successfully. We've had plenty of good young player come in, but just to leave unhappy with the organization. There are different reasons to each player such as miscommunication with the coach or organization, players not happy with how they're used, players causing unnecessary drama and goes on. Some of the fault goes to the players, but in other cases, you have to blame the organization. Drafting's fine, keeping them on the other hand...

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Old
05-21-2011, 01:01 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
At least we're slowly learning how to draft in the first round:

00: Ron Hainsey, Marcel Hossa
01: Mike Komisarek, Alexander Perezhogin
02: Chris Higgins
03: Andrei Kostitsyn
04: Kyle Chipchura
05: Carey Price
06: David Fischer
07: Ryan McDonagh, Max Pacioretty
09: Louis Leblanc
10: Jarred Tinordi
11: Sean Couturier

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Old
05-21-2011, 01:01 PM
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Couldn't we make a full team/roster with any organization, if we're talking about the last 10+ years of drafting? I see the point you're trying to make, but Koivu, Vokoun, Robidais? I find it works against the argument.

The only problem I have is the quality, not quantity.

Let's forget the amount of secondary talent we've drafted and figure out how many impact players we've drafted in the last 10+ years.

Subban
Price
Markov
Umm ..

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Old
05-21-2011, 01:18 PM
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Couldn't we make a full team/roster with any organization, if we're talking about the last 10+ years of drafting? I see the point you're trying to make, but Koivu, Vokoun, Robidais? I find it works against the argument.

The only problem I have is the quality, not quantity.

Let's forget the amount of secondary talent we've drafted and figure out how many impact players we've drafted in the last 10+ years.

Subban
Price
Markov
Umm ..
The point is to look at the thread on the main board. Filling a decent lineupe with your own players is a lot harder than it looks. Philadelphia and Boston for example, have drafted a number of great forwards but their defense and goaltending have been putrid. Florida and I suspect Tampa Bay wouldn't be able to fill a lineup with NHL players. Atlanta and Carolina would have basically nothing for depth. The Rangers don't have a star player beyond Lundqvist and maybe Staal. Toronto's best forward is probably Boyes and Buffalo doesn't have much by the way of forward depth. Montreal has been outstanding at drafting NHL players espcially on defense and in net. If teams could only ice players they drafted then Montreal would easily be a top 5 team in the East, probably win the North East and be almost as good a bet as any to take the Conference (Pittsburg, Washington, New Jersey and Long Island would be the other top teams).

And finally, if you look at the average number of impact players other teams have drafted I'd think you'd see that Montreal has been par for the course. Plus high impact NHLers are so rare that there is going to be a large element of luck involved in who gets them. Judging by number of top 9 forwards, top 4 defense and starting goaltenders produced is a much fairer metric.

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Old
05-21-2011, 01:20 PM
  #23
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For fun, here's Nashville's draft history, for first picks only, in the last 10 years.


Austin Watson
Ryan Ellis
Collin Wilson
Jonathon Blum
Blake Goeffrion
Ryan Parent
Alexandre Radulof
Ryan Sutter
Scottie Upshall
Dan Hamhuis
Scott Hartnell

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Old
05-21-2011, 01:21 PM
  #24
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I can't stand it when people bring up the development nonsense. This team spends a ton of time/money on player development and if a player never develops, then the player simply never had it to begin with. Guys like Ryan, Wilkie, Bilodeau, Chouinard simply couldn't skate. Fischer has the intellect of a bag of hammers and was the running joke at the draft combine.

Short of a trip to the Wizard of Oz, there wasn't any hope in developing any of these players.

Fischer = Straw Man (No brain)
Latendresse = Tin Man (No heart)
Chouinard = Lion (No courage)
Ribeiro = Dorothy (You know why)
Perezhogin = Toto........The Wicked Witch (KHL) took him away.

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Old
05-21-2011, 01:50 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
At least we're slowly learning how to draft in the first round:

00: Ron Hainsey, Marcel Hossa
01: Mike Komisarek, Alexander Perezhogin
02: Chris Higgins
03: Andrei Kostitsyn
04: Kyle Chipchura
05: Carey Price
06: David Fischer
07: Ryan McDonagh, Max Pacioretty
09: Louis Leblanc
10: Jarred Tinordi
Still doesn't make up for this

88: Eric Charron
89: Lindsay Vallis
90: Turner Stevenson
91: Brent Bilodeau
92: David Wilkie
93: Saaaaaakuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!
94: Brad Brown
95: Terry Ryan
96: Matt Higgins
97: Jason Ward
98: Eric Chouinard
99:

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