HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Other Leagues > ECHL and other Minor Pro Leagues

St.John's & ECHL?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-18-2011, 02:39 PM
  #26
CHRDANHUTCH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Auburn, Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 14,853
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via MSN to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via Yahoo to CHRDANHUTCH
Quote:
Originally Posted by finchster View Post
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/...afs040809.html



This article from the day tells me things were fine in St John's (which they were) but being able to move the farm team close to home made too much sense at the time. I never heard anything financially negative about the SJML, if I recall they were doing well.

As for the Fog Devils, yes they have economic troubles and those troubles probably included the lease. It would also include the higher transportation costs associated with the team. It isnít like the Moose Jaw Warriors who can take the bus to Brandon, the Fog Devils had to fly everywhere.

EDIT:
http://www.thewesternstar.com/Footba...g-Fog-Devils/1



Poor attendance + Lease + travel = no team

I don't even think it was a 'bad lease', just bad economics surrounding the team.
nope, totally disagree

SJSE had the same lease for both the Maple Leafs and the Fog Devils, that's why MLSE announced they had rejected the lease proposal a year ahead because the Oilers were in Toronto the year the NHL had the lockout they abruptly moved the AHL franchise to Edmonton after the 2004 master schedule was released....

CHRDANHUTCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 03:22 PM
  #27
finchster
Registered User
 
finchster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St Petersburg
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 7,443
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to finchster
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
nope, totally disagree

SJSE had the same lease for both the Maple Leafs and the Fog Devils, that's why MLSE announced they had rejected the lease proposal a year ahead because the Oilers were in Toronto the year the NHL had the lockout they abruptly moved the AHL franchise to Edmonton after the 2004 master schedule was released....
Ok don't let facts get in your way

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/AHL...21/679300.html

Quote:
So why is Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment parting ways with St. John's, the long-time home of Toronto's AHL farm club?

From the city's point of view, the financial strain of housing an AHL club was becoming too much. St. John's was shelling out $1.5 million per season to MLSEL to lease the Baby Leafs, a fee believed to be a point of contention when the two sides met last year to attempt to renegotiate a deal.
So what arena lease agreement killed the SJML? It says here the city of St John's was leasing the team from MLSE and paid 1.5 million a year. It makes sense, St John's built a new arena to house the team and would want to keep it.

Quote:
MLSEL, meanwhile, aired concerns about the team's schedule, which features 90 days on the road this season.

According to Baby Leafs coach Doug Shedden, the closest AHL city to St. John's is Portland, Maine. In order to get there the Baby Leafs fly to Toronto; change planes and wing their way to Boston; then bus their way north.

The Leafs claim valuable practice time is lost during this tale of planes, trains and automobiles, a problem they feel will be alleviated with the move to Ricoh.
Again, travel cannot be ignored when talking about putting a team in St John's. It is after all, a rock in the middle of the ocean .

finchster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 04:28 PM
  #28
CHRDANHUTCH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Auburn, Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 14,853
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via MSN to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via Yahoo to CHRDANHUTCH
Quote:
Originally Posted by finchster View Post
Ok don't let facts get in your way

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/AHL...21/679300.html



So what arena lease agreement killed the SJML? It says here the city of St John's was leasing the team from MLSE and paid 1.5 million a year. It makes sense, St John's built a new arena to house the team and would want to keep it.



Again, travel cannot be ignored when talking about putting a team in St John's. It is after all, a rock in the middle of the ocean .
try again, finch

SJSE owns Mile One , not the Maple Leafs (now Marlies); explain why the lease for 2004-05 was abruptly dropped when SJSE put the same lease in front of the Dobbins three years later, also care to explain why the SJML logo was everywhere in Mile One , WHEN The Fog Devils arrived in 2006? including their team store was called Leafland.

you better read up on the articles surrounding why would MLSE stopped negotiations w/ SJSE and then announced 2004-05 was to be the last season of the SJML, THE SAME EXACT Issue why the Fog Devils had the worst lease in all the CHL, IS WHAT THEY TRIED to do to MLSE AND THE SJML....

CHRDANHUTCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 07:08 PM
  #29
Windstorm
Registered User
 
Windstorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: BC, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 48
vCash: 500
St. John's would be a great spot for the ECHL, that is if travel costs aren't too bad. I can't see why the team couldn't draw 3,000+ per game.

From what I've heard, the main reason why the Leafs AHL team moved was because it's much cheaper to put them in Ricoh Coliseum (the building is owned by Maple Leaf Entertainment and is closer to other AHL teams).

A St. John's ECHL team would do especially well if affiliated with a well known NHL team. The Canadiens currently share their ECHL affiliate with Pittsburgh, so the Habs could be an option.

Windstorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 07:22 PM
  #30
finchster
Registered User
 
finchster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St Petersburg
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 7,443
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to finchster
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
try again, finch

SJSE owns Mile One , not the Maple Leafs (now Marlies);
When did I state that the MLSE owned Mile one? I stated the city of St John's paid MLSE money to have the SJML(St John's Maple Leafs) in St John's as stated in that news article. The arena lease have very little to do with why the SJML moved

I also stated that the lease did effect the Fog Devils, but you are ignoring travel costs. Any professional team that plays in Newfoundland will always have the most travel time and the highest travel expenses.

Then again you could just write in capital letters and go off on tangents like you do on the Bruins board.

finchster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 07:33 PM
  #31
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,162
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Great One View Post
I for one would NOT like to see the ECHL come to St. John's. I know this sounds kind of foolish considering we have an empty building right now with no team to fill the seats but, i honestly believe that the ECHL is not the way to go. What many people who do not live in the province don't realize is that the province contains 2 senior hockey leagues, the Avalon East and West Coast hockey league, that draw even more fans than our past Fog Devils franchise. At the end of the season the winners of both these leagues play off in a 7 game series at known as the Herder Memorial. This series draws thousands of fans to Mile One each year and unless you know someone in either organization it is very difficult to obtain tickets as they sell out within minutes of going on sale. In the past few years most of the players in these leagues have been getting paid by the organization with some players even making as much as $30,000 a season. Also many of these players are former junior, ECHL, AHL and even a few former NHL players who jumped at the opportunity to move back home and still be able to play the game they love and make some cash while doing so. Believe it or not, alot of these players are still very capable of playing pro hockey and could even be high end players playing in leagues such as the ECHL or some European organizations.

The point i'm trying to make is that i don't believe this city/province will, all of a sudden, start following and supporting a semi-pro league like the ECHL when we've got the same talent and calibre of hockey already in the province. Also i believe that our next franchise may be the last kick of the can for us and if we do recieve an ECHL franchise and it fails, like i believe it would, then this may hurt any chances of ever being awarded with another franchise again. I truly believe that the QMJHL or AHL are the only leagues that have a chance of surviving in this province.
where do i start?

first of all, i agree that the echl is not the way for st.john's to go. the fans here know nothing about the league, and we would have no geographic rivals. also, having a team in the echl would do nothing to boost the city's profile on the national stage. we don't see echl scores on tsn or sportsnet. we do see qmjhl scores.

the avalon east and west coast leagues do not draw more fans than the fog devils did. not even close. a lot of games in the avalon east league are played in front of 50-100 people. they draw more in the west, but are lucky to get 500-1000. the fog devils drew far more than that.

mile one is sold out for the herder finals, which is 4 games at most. is a yearly event which provides an excuse for thousands of people to come to st.john's for a weekend and get drunk. that's all it is. these are not diehard senior hockey fans, they're just excited for the once-a-year event.

there are very very few guys playing senior hockey in newfoundland who could legitimately play in the echl. the echl is a major step up from local senior hockey. in fact, its numerous steps up. we do not have echl-quality hockey in this province, its not even close.

so while i agree with you that the echl won't work here and shouldn't be considered an option, i don't agree with your reasons at all.

Frankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 09:45 PM
  #32
HansH
Unwelcome Spectre
 
HansH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Diego
Country: United States
Posts: 3,320
vCash: 500
Pet peeve here.

People, the ECHL is NOT a "semi-pro" league. That appellation fits for the alphabet-soup of leagues that have failed/are failing in the US Great Lakes and Northeast regions, and to the LNAH.

ECHL players, while light years away from the NHL, are professional players. They are, by league rules, by and large PROHIBITED from having other jobs during the hockey season (too much chance of salary cap evasion through those "jobs"). They aren't just skating a couple of games a week to supplement their income -- professional hockey is their JOB.

So, can we please please PLEASE get the correct usages of the "semi-pro" and "pro" designations of the leagues? You MIGHT be able to debate whether the AAHL or some of the other leagues are "pro", or "semi-pro", but it is RIDICULOUS to mistake the ECHL for a "semi-pro" league.

Minor league? Absolutely. Less talented than the NHL? For sure. Fewer "future NHL _stars_" than the Q? Sure.

Professional? Absolutely.

HansH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 11:46 PM
  #33
Windstorm
Registered User
 
Windstorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: BC, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 48
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HansH View Post
Pet peeve here.

People, the ECHL is NOT a "semi-pro" league. That appellation fits for the alphabet-soup of leagues that have failed/are failing in the US Great Lakes and Northeast regions, and to the LNAH.

ECHL players, while light years away from the NHL, are professional players. They are, by league rules, by and large PROHIBITED from having other jobs during the hockey season (too much chance of salary cap evasion through those "jobs"). They aren't just skating a couple of games a week to supplement their income -- professional hockey is their JOB.

So, can we please please PLEASE get the correct usages of the "semi-pro" and "pro" designations of the leagues? You MIGHT be able to debate whether the AAHL or some of the other leagues are "pro", or "semi-pro", but it is RIDICULOUS to mistake the ECHL for a "semi-pro" league.

Minor league? Absolutely. Less talented than the NHL? For sure. Fewer "future NHL _stars_" than the Q? Sure.

Professional? Absolutely.
I agree completely. Here in Vancouver, a lot of people look down upon leagues like the AHL and ECHL. What they don't realize is that there's a lot of great hockey outside of the NHL.

Windstorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-18-2011, 11:50 PM
  #34
CHRDANHUTCH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Auburn, Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 14,853
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via MSN to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via Yahoo to CHRDANHUTCH
Quote:
Originally Posted by finchster View Post
When did I state that the MLSE owned Mile one? I stated the city of St John's paid MLSE money to have the SJML(St John's Maple Leafs) in St John's as stated in that news article. The arena lease have very little to do with why the SJML moved

I also stated that the lease did effect the Fog Devils, but you are ignoring travel costs. Any professional team that plays in Newfoundland will always have the most travel time and the highest travel expenses.

Then again you could just write in capital letters and go off on tangents like you do on the Bruins board.
NOT TRUE, Finch

MLSE almost got suckered into the same lease as the Fog Devils did----why would Courteau state that the lease was a major issue when it started to go south.

Abbotsford has the same exact contract now that St. John's had for 14 years...

we didn't know what the backstory on why the SJML/MLSE LEASE proposals but it was more toward SJSE than MLSE, I wouldn't be surprised that MLSE had a hand in helping design Mile One....

CHRDANHUTCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-19-2011, 07:19 AM
  #35
billycanuck
Registered User
 
billycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 461
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Great One View Post
...The point i'm trying to make is that i don't believe this city/province will, all of a sudden, start following and supporting a semi-pro league like the ECHL when we've got the same talent and calibre of hockey already in the province...
Just to touch on the other posts regarding this comment, here is the link to the ECHL CBA with the PHPA that explains what the salary caps are in the league.

Quote:
The weekly Salary Cap to be shared amongst all Players on the Active Roster shall be as follows:

2009/10- $11,800 US
2010/11- $12,000 US
2011/12- $12,400 US
2012/13- $12,400 US
What is a Salary Floor?

The Salary Floor is the minimum total salary paid by a Member Club to Players on the Active Roster. The amounts are as follows:

2009/10- $8,300 US
2010/11- $8,500 US
2011/12- $8,700 US
2012/13- $8,900 US

Yes. For a Player who has played in fewer than 25 professional hockey games at the beginning of the Season who has signed a Standard Player Contract and who was not on an ECHL teamís End of Season roster:

2009/10- $360 US
2010/11- $370 US
2011/12- $380 US
2012/13- $380 US
For all other Players:

2009/10- $400 US
2010/11- $410 US
2011/12- $425 US
2012/13- $425 US
So NOT semi-professional/Senior hockey. The ECHL is a quality minor PROFESSIONAL league that has graduated some decent NHL players, not too mention a great spot for goalies to get seasoning and mature (Olaf Kolzig, Jaroslav Halak, Manny Legace, Johnathan Quick, Tim Thomas, Tomas Vokoun, click here for list)

billycanuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2011, 03:40 PM
  #36
Trevor3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Stephenville - YJT
Country: Canada
Posts: 218
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
where do i start?

first of all, i agree that the echl is not the way for st.john's to go. the fans here know nothing about the league, and we would have no geographic rivals. also, having a team in the echl would do nothing to boost the city's profile on the national stage. we don't see echl scores on tsn or sportsnet. we do see qmjhl scores.

the avalon east and west coast leagues do not draw more fans than the fog devils did. not even close. a lot of games in the avalon east league are played in front of 50-100 people. they draw more in the west, but are lucky to get 500-1000. the fog devils drew far more than that.

mile one is sold out for the herder finals, which is 4 games at most. is a yearly event which provides an excuse for thousands of people to come to st.john's for a weekend and get drunk. that's all it is. these are not diehard senior hockey fans, they're just excited for the once-a-year event.

there are very very few guys playing senior hockey in newfoundland who could legitimately play in the echl. the echl is a major step up from local senior hockey. in fact, its numerous steps up. we do not have echl-quality hockey in this province, its not even close.

so while i agree with you that the echl won't work here and shouldn't be considered an option, i don't agree with your reasons at all.
I'm not sure about this ECHL stuff either, I mean its better than nothing in the short term but I don't know if a team is viable in St. John's long term. It's a lot like the AHL in terms travel with the closest teams being in the northeast US, but most are further south and west than that. With the QMJHL, a team flies from St. John's to Halifax, Montreal or Charlottetown and takes the bus to their destination, rather than plane hopping their way down to Cincinatti.

As for Frankie, just thought I would point out that while the Avalon East league draws nothing more than players wives and zamboni drivers, the West Coast league is a much larger operation. Corner Brook is having a hard time making ends meet drawing over 1000 per game (nearly moved to Stephenville last month because of it), Deer Lake consistantly sells out over 1000, and Clarenville closer 1500. Grand-Falls has a tiny capacity but still pushes 900-1000.

I've said this before but not online, maybe the way for a team in Newfoundland to survive is have a "partner" team. If the Q were to have teams in both St. John's and Corner Brook they could each reduce their travel expenses for incoming teams, for example St.J flies in the Eagles and Corner Brook sends them back, or you could potentially even bus teams across the ferry from Cape Breton. Corner Brook is only about 2.5 hours from the ferry terminal.

Mile One has a capacity of 5,800, the Pepsi Centre in Corner Brook is 3,900 (plus standing room of course). Its just a thought on how a Q team could work, not saying its even remotely likely, but an interesting concept. Both teams would even have an instant rivalry.

If St. John's had an ECHL team, I'd definitely support it though. Any hockey is better than none, and these ECHL guys are honestly playing out of sheer desire. They aren't making much money, they aren't likely going to the NHL, they could be making more money back home in an office or factory or something, but they're playing because they love it, and if they can't make it in the ECHL, most of them are done so its do or die for their hockey career.

Trevor3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2011, 11:12 PM
  #37
Johnny8242
Registered User
 
Johnny8242's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Greenville, SC
Country: United States
Posts: 928
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Johnny8242
I would at this point say little to no chance of a ST Johns ECHL team. Too many obstacles in the way.

Johnny8242 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2011, 08:56 PM
  #38
SFTC Addict
Not Here To Be Liked
 
SFTC Addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Middle of nowhere
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Any updates on this? I've heard nothing.

However I totally disagree with tnhe passion claims in this thread. Physicality seems like it's at an all time low in this league this season. There are no more rivaries. The players these days on the average don't care about the name on the jersey they are playing for, they just care about that NHL shot. Is there really much difference between the ECHL and AHL now a days? I think it's actually somewhat debateable.

SFTC Addict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2011, 09:35 PM
  #39
billycanuck
Registered User
 
billycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 461
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackalsfan1 View Post
Any updates on this? I've heard nothing.

However I totally disagree with tnhe passion claims in this thread. Physicality seems like it's at an all time low in this league this season. There are no more rivaries. The players these days on the average don't care about the name on the jersey they are playing for, they just care about that NHL shot. Is there really much difference between the ECHL and AHL now a days? I think it's actually somewhat debateable.
Well I know that a QMJHL team will not be moving to St.John's next season. The deadline for an application has come and past.

As for the ECHL:
Quote:
The ECHLís board of governors is ďvery interestedĒ with the prospects of expanding to Canadaís East Coast, but if St. Johnís is to be home to the pro hockey league thatís two notches below the NHL, it wonít be until the 2012-13 season.
http://www.thetelegram.com/Sports/Ho...elay-of-game/1

Some ECHL brass were supposed to tour Mile One sometime this month, but they are keeping lips sealed right now wanting to get everything in place before they announce anything.

Honestly, though, I don't think the St.John's fans want an ECHL team. They think they deserve better (AHL or QMJHL). Saw one comment that they thought the senior league out there was just as good as the ECHL! I think because of the ECHL's distance from the Rock, that people out there don't know how good the hockey is.

As for now, the Mile One will sit empty.

billycanuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2011, 05:46 PM
  #40
SFTC Addict
Not Here To Be Liked
 
SFTC Addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Middle of nowhere
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by billycanuck View Post
Well I know that a QMJHL team will not be moving to St.John's next season. The deadline for an application has come and past.

As for the ECHL:

http://www.thetelegram.com/Sports/Ho...elay-of-game/1

Some ECHL brass were supposed to tour Mile One sometime this month, but they are keeping lips sealed right now wanting to get everything in place before they announce anything.

Honestly, though, I don't think the St.John's fans want an ECHL team. They think they deserve better (AHL or QMJHL). Saw one comment that they thought the senior league out there was just as good as the ECHL! I think because of the ECHL's distance from the Rock, that people out there don't know how good the hockey is.

As for now, the Mile One will sit empty.
Thanks. It's frustrating because the league met like they do every year during the All Star festivities. However they haven't released a presser for it(atleast that I have come across)regarding things they have talked about. I will have to go re-find the link but I came across a link that said every franchise will return(including Wheeling, which seems a bit shocking) though I know something like that needs to be taken with a grain of salt as anything is possible and things have happened before.

I don't think they want to know what the hockey is like. I get the vibe that even in Hamilton they don't truly care about the Bulldogs for example yet they generaly have an elite squad.

I think the hockey in this league is decent but at the sametime it's a headcase and at times can be downright awful due to injuries to the AHL/NHL clubs and call ups/injuries taking place to your team all at once leaving you with a depleted roster full of virtually unknowns that look like they were grabbed off the street.

SFTC Addict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-19-2011, 05:33 PM
  #41
SFTC Addict
Not Here To Be Liked
 
SFTC Addict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Middle of nowhere
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Looks like the group that was pursuing to get into the ECHL has dropped it's plans and the AHL is looking to move in:

http://www.thesportspage.ca/index.ph...2011&Itemid=94

SFTC Addict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2011, 11:23 AM
  #42
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,400
vCash: 500
http://www.tsn.ca/ahl/story/?id=366455

Semi-official announcement that AHL Manitoba Moose are moving to St John's. (They'll be replaced by relocated NHL Atlanta Thrashers in Winnipeg.)

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:41 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.