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For those that think the Habs are a bad drafting team.

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Old
05-21-2011, 06:39 PM
  #51
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Check out the thread on the main board about assembling a team solely from your team's draft picks. The one I came up with follows:

Pacioretty-Plekanec-A. Kostitsyn
Latendresse-Riberio-Grabroski
S.Kostitsyn-S. Koivu-Ryder
Higgins-Lapiere-Perezoghin
D'Agostini, Chipchura, White

Markov-Subban
Streit-Robidais
McDonagh-Beachemin
Komisarek, Hainsey

Price
Vokoun
Halak

Team with this kind of defense, goaltending and forward depth would easily compete for the Eastern Conference championship. Compare it to other teams posted on the main board and I think you'll find that they are largely inferior to this squad. If anything, the Habs have excercised bad asset management rather than poor drafting.
You're going back nearly two decades to assemble this hypothetical team. The only Habs roster that impressed me with its fresh new talent in the past 25 years was the 1986 team, and that was long before any of your candidates arrived on the scene. Theer have been some real clinkers along the way, especially in the first round.

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Old
05-21-2011, 06:43 PM
  #52
HH
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Originally Posted by JohnnyB11 View Post
Anyone still bent out of shape because we didn't move up in the 2007 draft to snag Angelo Esposito, and therefore had to settle for Max Pacioretty?

I remember 110% after that draft. Pissed we picked McDonagh over Esposito and pissed we picked Pacioretty over Perron.

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05-21-2011, 06:45 PM
  #53
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With all the supposed great drafting, the results aren't there.

Bottom line.

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Old
05-21-2011, 06:46 PM
  #54
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- 29 teams passed over Subban.
- We picked Price over Brule.
- We picked Plekanec in the 4th round.
- We picked Halak in the 9th round.
- Did not fall for the Esposito pick pressure. Picked McDonagh and Pacioretty instead.

The Rejean Houle era was brutal, we all agree on that. Much much much better since.

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05-21-2011, 06:58 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
You're going back nearly two decades to assemble this hypothetical team. The only Habs roster that impressed me with its fresh new talent in the past 25 years was the 1986 team, and that was long before any of your candidates arrived on the scene. Theer have been some real clinkers along the way, especially in the first round.
If you'd bothered to actually read the original post, then you'd know that it's based on a thread on the main board right now which I would encourage you to look at. It's following the rules of the original thread on the main board, players a team drafted who could be in the NHL right now. Besides, if you exclude players like Koivu, Robidas and Markov then Detroit deserves no credit for Datsyuk and Zetterberg (and certainly not Lidstrom).

The 90's habs stunk at drafting (although things began to turn around in 98) but the last decade's organization has been pretty good. It was the reason that the Habs were first in the east in 08 and have gone from a team that made the playoffs every 3 years or so to one that makes the playoffs continually. And last year's team managed to graduate 6 players from the AHL. That's a sign of a very robust system.

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Old
05-21-2011, 07:03 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by HarryI View Post
- 29 teams passed over Subban.
- We picked Price over Brule.
- We picked Plekanec in the 4th round.
- We picked Halak in the 9th round.
- Did not fall for the Esposito pick pressure. Picked McDonagh and Pacioretty instead.

The Rejean Houle era was brutal, we all agree on that. Much much much better since.
The 2007 cohort has been very good to Montreal, which is strange since it was a relatively weak year. Eller, Subban and Weber from the same year and they could of kept McDonagh too.

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05-21-2011, 07:18 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
That is indeed the full season before Gainey took over, but the players in the minors were there when Gainey took over. Not all of them were ready to contribute but they were there. It's not something that is to Gainey's credit or anything. No matter who was GM, Plekanec, Higgins and Ryder were gonna make the team in the near future.

As for Ryder, he made his debut the first year of Gainey's tenure and was a ROTY contender. He's not a Gainey product or anything. It's unfair to make a list that doesn't include Ryder amongst the player Gainey started with.
True, but my point was more that having Higgins and Ryder don't really make this team exponentially better, especially after how they played in their last years here. Gainey could have also bailed on Pleks like he did with Higgins and Ryder after his crap year, but he gave him a chance to prove himself. Whereas he traded Higgins and let Ryder walk, and I don't particularly miss either of them yet.


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Eh, nearly everyone is giving him all credit for turning the team around. Not sure I can agree with you there.
Whoops. I meant that I don't think you're giving him enough credit.

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Also some terrible moves in Ribeiro, Latendresse, Grab, Beauchemin, Gomez. Not signing Streit when he had the chance. Maybe they wash out if you wanna be positive.
Some of those moves were really unavoidable. Ribeiro trade still makes me nauseous and the Gomez one is pretty damn awful (unless there is a shred of truth to the Gionta attraction), but just because he couldn't foresee Beachemin and Grabs panning out (especially Grabs who wanted out and had really almost no worth, and turned into Lang) isn't all on him.

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But I take offense whenever people try to credit him with the habs turn around. That turn around was initiated before Gainey got on board. If Gainey had done a solid job, he would have done more than ride the wave.
You're right in a way. But it's not like UFAs were flocking here, and the disastrous centennial really threw everything off course. He basically had to execute a mini rebuild.

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Guys like Gomez ? Samsonov ?

I think the pressure thing is an easy excuse for players not reaching their potential. Something people like to say in a fatalistic resigned way : "ahh it wouldn't have worked in Montreal anyway...". I don't think pressure/medias had anything to do with what happened with Higgins, Latendresse, Ribeiro, Grab and SK.
I'm thinking more guys like Gionta, Cammy, Gill.

Ribeiro, SK and Grabs were all headcases, what are you gonna do with guys that clash with your captain or think they're owed roster spots? Higgins' extra curricular activities were well documented, and a lot of people thought he was bringing Price down with him. I also think the pressure got to Latendresse, and as one of the only francophones on the team, expectations were high. Latendresse did an interview not long after talking about how much happier he was with the Wild, and it showed in his sudden goal scoring prowess.

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Maybe I'm overly harsh, but maybe I'm only trying to balance things out with those who like to give him all the credit for the habs "turn around". I think it was more of a slight steering than a turn around, maybe we can agree on that.
Nah, I don't think you're being that harsh. That's the nature of being a Habs fan I guess, analyzing everything to death.

GMs get credit for a lot of stuff they don't deserve really. The Canucks owe a big chunk of their success to Burke and Nonis to a degree, but only Gillis' name is gonna be on the cup if Vancouver wins it all this year.

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Old
05-21-2011, 07:52 PM
  #58
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
If you'd bothered to actually read the original post, then you'd know that it's based on a thread on the main board right now which I would encourage you to look at. It's following the rules of the original thread on the main board, players a team drafted who could be in the NHL right now. Besides, if you exclude players like Koivu, Robidas and Markov then Detroit deserves no credit for Datsyuk and Zetterberg (and certainly not Lidstrom).

The 90's habs stunk at drafting (although things began to turn around in 98) but the last decade's organization has been pretty good. It was the reason that the Habs were first in the east in 08 and have gone from a team that made the playoffs every 3 years or so to one that makes the playoffs continually. And last year's team managed to graduate 6 players from the AHL. That's a sign of a very robust system.
The team that led the East in 2008 was a hollow shell that was nearly eliminated by an 8th place team and utterly collapsed against the Flyers in 2008 and again in 2010. Besides, those two teams depended heavily on players who weren't drafted by the Habs. Even now the Habs have quite a few players who were picked by other teams.

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Old
05-21-2011, 08:08 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
The team that led the East in 2008 was a hollow shell that was nearly eliminated by an 8th place team and utterly collapsed against the Flyers in 2008 and again in 2010. Besides, those two teams depended heavily on players who weren't drafted by the Habs. Even now the Habs have quite a few players who were picked by other teams.
The first place team had a bad run of luck against a Philadelphia team they largely outplayed. The only way they got to the top of the East was from the break out seaons of Plekanec, Kostitsyn and Streit with strong years from Markov, Koivu, Komisarek and Higgins. That squad was lead by homegrown talent. The implosion the year after had nothing to do with a lack of talent, they spent the first half of the year comfortably in the top 5 in the East before injury and drama lead to the late season collapse. Its natural to have players from other teams. The key is to grow enough of your own to fill the depth positions and to have a basis to build a core from.

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Old
05-21-2011, 08:40 PM
  #60
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Nobody is saying that the habs are a bad drafting team. Most people are saying that they're 1st rounders could have been much better and that they are mediocre at developing their players.

The end-result though, as a sign of a drafting record that could be better, is that they had to buy to entirely reload their offensive power and paying big money to do so. Had to trade for an underachieving centerman who was already overpaid for their inability to get a centerman EVERYBODY was asking the team to get in so many years.

Strangely, the 3 greatest news this team has are named Price, Subban and Pacioretty. 3 draft picks. Way more than any guys we ended up buying. Draft is crucial and lately, we have to deal with not a whole lot of draft picks to let Timmins and his crew work their magic. Which this is not Timmins fault.

So an overall work in progress as far as this team is concerned. Good moves, not so good ones. So clearly not a bad drafting team, but wouldn't call them genius either. 'Cause at one point, you need the results to prove how genius you were. And that result has to come within the team.

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Old
05-21-2011, 09:48 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jerky View Post
Still doesn't make up for this

88: Eric Charron
89: Lindsay Vallis
90: Turner Stevenson
91: Brent Bilodeau
92: David Wilkie
93: Saaaaaakuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!
94: Brad Brown
95: Terry Ryan
96: Matt Higgins
97: Jason Ward
98: Eric Chouinard
99:
Alain Heroux was suppose to replace Gainey.

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Old
05-22-2011, 02:39 AM
  #62
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This organization never recovered losing Claude Ruel.
Interesting. Ruel does not get enough credit, true.

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Old
05-22-2011, 06:12 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by My Sweet Shadow View Post
Leafs fan coming in peace.

You want to talk about 1st round failures?

96: None
97: None
98: Nik Antropov
99: Luca Cereda
00: Brad Boyes
01: Carlo Colaiacovo
02: Alex Steen
03: None
04: None
05: Tukka Rask
06: Jiri Tlusty
07: None
08: Luke Schenn
09: Nazem Kadri
10: None

Since '95, we've had 6 years with no 1st round pick, Cereda never played an NHL game, Rask never played a game for the Leafs, and 5 others have been traded. Only Schenn is still an impact player on our roster (though hopefully Kadri will be as well next season).
I lived in Toronto when Boyes was lighting it up in the AHL. The headlines were "what can we get for him" and the fan discussions were "what can we get for him." The team went all out to win then and kept nothing for the future. It is no surprise that after the core of the late '90s early '00s team aged out there was no one to take over. Few fans can complain because most fans wanted to win then and blow draft picks.

Note that if those Leafs teams had managed a few wins more in the playoffs it would have been worth it.

Cereda is the only definite bust on that list, Tlusty still has time. It's not like most of the pre-2005 picks were that high, either.

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Old
05-22-2011, 07:49 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Peekay Zubban View Post
There are quite a few better teams than that on the main board. I find there is too many "meh" players like Higgins, Laps, Beauchemin, Komi etc.
Too many meh players spawn mediocrity.Same with signing too many meh UFA's

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05-22-2011, 08:21 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Because sheer numbers of NHL players is a far better metric of actual skill than who ended up with the superstars.
I read the rest or your post to see if you could explain that statement. You did not.

I completely disagree with you and I would guess so do lots of others on this board.

Defending Habs drafting because we have drafted more third liners in the NHL than any other team is not going to cut it.

Except for Price at no. 5, and possibly PK, the Habs have not drafted a true star player since Roy, and Chelios. I love Saku, but he is not a star.

And we have not won a cup for 20 years precisely because we have not done that.

The argument here is really this: Have the Habs drafted well enough in the last 20 years to win a cup?

Answer: No.

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05-22-2011, 09:45 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by whitespy View Post
For fun, here's Nashville's draft history, for first picks only, in the last 10 years.


Austin Watson
Ryan Ellis
Collin Wilson
Jonathon Blum
Blake Goeffrion
Ryan Parent
Alexandre Radulof
Ryan Sutter
Scottie Upshall
Dan Hamhuis
Scott Hartnell
Four top 7 picks and six top 12 selections...it helps.

A different story for most of the players who weren't drafted high - Radulov can't be considered a great pick because he's played a grand total of 145 games in the NHL, Parent wasn't a great pick either. The jury is definitely still out on Watson and Wilson too.

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Old
05-22-2011, 12:06 PM
  #67
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I read the rest or your post to see if you could explain that statement. You did not.

I completely disagree with you and I would guess so do lots of others on this board.

Defending Habs drafting because we have drafted more third liners in the NHL than any other team is not going to cut it.

Except for Price at no. 5, and possibly PK, the Habs have not drafted a true star player since Roy, and Chelios. I love Saku, but he is not a star.

And we have not won a cup for 20 years precisely because we have not done that.

The argument here is really this: Have the Habs drafted well enough in the last 20 years to win a cup?

Answer: No.


Its simply a matter of the rules of smaller and larger numbers. Drafting a superstar is such an uncommon event that sheer random chance plays a bigger role. Even a good drafting team can only expect to do so on average of once every 3-5 years. You seem to suffer from the delusion that drafting works a deterministic process. It is not, outside the top of the draft, its matter of placing bets on which 18 year olds will improve enough to make the NHL. Most hockey skills however are linear, the process of becoming a good enough player to be an impact NHL player is largely the same as the process of becoming an NHL regular, involving developing the same skills. Thus looking at the process of finding NHLers is better measure of scouting skill because it is a similar process to finding stars and as a higher event process (a good team will find 1-2 NHLers per draft) luck plays a much smaller role and skill a larger. Its really just elementary statistics.

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Old
05-22-2011, 02:00 PM
  #68
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I would definitly not call the habs a bad drafting team. Some of the players that we have drafted in the past have gone on to be very good assets for other teams. For example players like S.Kost, Grabovski and Mcdonugh. The reasoning behind why these players werent able to play to there full potential here in MTL has to do with 2 things, the fans having too high expectations and the Media blowing things out of proportion. I myself am a die hard habs fan but my expectations can only be what ive seen the players are capable of when theyve reached the NHL level and nothing more. This years draft can be an important one for our future. IMO we need to draft a player such as Mark Mcneil or Mark Scheifele. Both players have the potential to be very good Power forwards like the one we are currently developing in Max Pacioretty. If we add another tool like that, then we are only getting closer to become a bigger, stronger, faster and more skilled team.

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05-22-2011, 02:40 PM
  #69
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[QUOTE=Talks to Goalposts;33179274]Its simply a matter of the rules of smaller and larger numbers. Drafting a superstar is such an uncommon event that sheer random chance plays a bigger role. Even a good drafting team can only expect to do so on average of once every 3-5 years. You seem to suffer from the delusion that drafting works a deterministic process. It is not, outside the top of the draft, its matter of placing bets on which 18 year olds will improve enough to make the NHL. Most hockey skills however are linear, the process of becoming a good enough player to be an impact NHL player is largely the same as the process of becoming an NHL regular, involving developing the same skills. Thus looking at the process of finding NHLers is better measure of scouting skill because it is a similar process to finding stars and as a higher event process (a good team will find 1-2 NHLers per draft) luck plays a much smaller role and skill a larger. Its really just elementary statistics.


The elementry statistic that I look at - as bsl pointed out is.....0 -18 (zero Cups in 18 years).

The problem with your claim that the Habs are "......well above average at the drafting table" are 3 fold!

#1 - 3rd + 4th line players (and #5 -#6 + #7 defenseman ) are not the difference makers needed to even compete for (let alone win) a Cup.

#2 - 3rd + 4th line players and #5 -#6 + #7 defenseman are available by the truck load every July 1st - usually at great prices!

#3 - Show me a Cup winner and I'll show you a team that is not lacking in high-end talent - something the Habs have not had nearly enough of for the past 18+ seasons!

As I said previously...if making the playoffs does it for you - congratulations - you should be extremely happy with the Habs......some of us have higher goals than making the playoffs along with 15 other teams!




What if this is......as good as it gets?


Last edited by Melvin Udall: 05-23-2011 at 05:49 PM.
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Old
05-22-2011, 03:27 PM
  #70
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Oh I agree. But I think Zetterberg is just a good find as opposed to luck. Maybe Datsyuk was luck, but my post was to show how well they do in Sweden.
It actually was . The scout that was went to go look at his was going to look at another player but saw Datsyuk. The Blues scout was also going to go see him but his flight got grounded so he couldn't see him play since the draft was really soon. So yes it was luck.

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05-24-2011, 02:48 AM
  #71
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Lidstrom and Franzen in the 3rd round, Holmstrom in the 10th. They have great scouts in Sweden and do a very good job at development. Really patient. It's not a fluke.
Um, yeah, it is a fluke. They are totally overrated and the Swedish thing is a myth.

Patient? How about we look at their drafting since 2000. Here's the link: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

Tell me where all this Swedish talent is? Tell me where the talent is period. Detroit has drafted very poorly.

2000: Kronwall, Kopecky and 9 stiffs--3 Swedish
2001: two guys played a total of 73 games for 12 pts and Andreas Jamtin didn't make it (they must be super patient with Swedes)
2002: their best year but the three guys who make it, if being 40 pt men is making it (if you're Belorussian apparently it isn't in Mtl) -- Ericcson is a bottom pairing D -- are Czech and Finnish; three more Swedish stiffs
2003: Nothing to show for it unless you really think Jimmie Howard is a top goalie; 4 more Swedish nothings--um wasn't this the draft that was full of can't miss unless you're picking Belorussians in Mtl?
2004: Franzen and then, guess what nothing, including 2 more Swedish patience testers
2005: Now, this is a good example of what I'm talking about b/c 4 guys have played a total of 387 NHL games for a total of 95 pts. Most of the pts belong to the guy with the most games, Darren Helm, an 11 goal scorer last year; 57 pts in 180 games. Awesome. Yes, Ritola and his 9 pts in 38 games are Swedish, but it's Johan Ryno who will be challenging for the Art Ross this year, I know it. So, their vaunted drafting got them 2 more 4th liners and 3 more Swedish stiffs.
2006: Um, nothing but stiffs. Matthias has played 126 NHL games, mostly FOR FLORIDA! So, again, Detroit has nothing to show and 2 more Swedish stiffs.
2007: None of these has played in the NHL yet. Um, we got PK Subban.
2008: one dude has played 1 game
2009: one dude has played 9 games

Interestingly, in 2007, they drafted 2 Swedes, but only 1 in 2008, 2009 and in 2010. I think even the Red Wings have caught on to the fact that they aren't actually so good at drafting or at drafting Swedes. Would that posters here and TV guys would do the same.

You're forgetting Datsyuk and Zetterberg were drafted a dozen years ago! Holmstrom is even older! They've been terrible at drafting since!

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Old
05-24-2011, 07:09 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Nobody is saying that the habs are a bad drafting team. Most people are saying that they're 1st rounders could have been much better and that they are mediocre at developing their players.

The end-result though, as a sign of a drafting record that could be better, is that they had to buy to entirely reload their offensive power and paying big money to do so. Had to trade for an underachieving centerman who was already overpaid for their inability to get a centerman EVERYBODY was asking the team to get in so many years.

Strangely, the 3 greatest news this team has are named Price, Subban and Pacioretty. 3 draft picks. Way more than any guys we ended up buying. Draft is crucial and lately, we have to deal with not a whole lot of draft picks to let Timmins and his crew work their magic. Which this is not Timmins fault.

So an overall work in progress as far as this team is concerned. Good moves, not so good ones. So clearly not a bad drafting team, but wouldn't call them genius either. 'Cause at one point, you need the results to prove how genius you were. And that result has to come within the team.
Really good post again. I agree with everything here.

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05-24-2011, 07:12 AM
  #73
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Datsyuk and Zetterberg were huge flukes. IF the Detroit brass new they were stars, they wouldn't have waited so long to pick them, they got very, very lucky.

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05-24-2011, 07:20 AM
  #74
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I remember 110% after that draft. Pissed we picked McDonagh over Esposito and pissed we picked Pacioretty over Perron.
To be fair Perron would have been a very good pick also (even if I prefer Pacioretty because of his toughness I doubt Blues fans would trade Perron for him).

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05-24-2011, 07:22 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Nobody is saying that the habs are a bad drafting team. Most people are saying that they're 1st rounders could have been much better and that they are mediocre at developing their players.
Our first round drafting record isn't as bad as people make it out. Last year people complained because it did look poor if Patches and McDonough didn't work out. Last year, everyone had them as busts pretty much.

But they've both turned into top 6 and top 4 type players. That is pretty good.

I bet we have one of the best drafting records of 1st rounders if you exclude top 10 picks. Top 10 picks are practically gimmy's but picks 11-30 is where you fill quality depth roles.

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