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Old
05-22-2011, 03:49 PM
  #51
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Minnesota currently has the worst travel in the NHL. And still would if that were to happen. Minnesota has a built-in division and familiarity there for the taking. Dallas and to a lesser extent, Colorado, do not. Your putting Minnesota out on an island (like Dallas and Colorado) when it isn't needed.

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05-22-2011, 05:01 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by thespeckledkiwi View Post
That's the most asinine thing I've heard in a while. Dallas is staying. They had ownership issues right now but they are fine. They've been fine.

Should we then move the Avalanche and the Devils as they've been low on attendance? Especially the Devils since they never can sell out their arena and they just got a new one...
I appreciate your optimism, but they missed the playoffs this season, and given the state of the Western Conference, that is a distinct possibility next season as well. Their system doesn't really have blue chip talent to provide hope of a quick turnaround, and there is a good chance they lose their leading scorer for nothing.

Almost 1 in 5 tickets went unsold last season. Why should i believe that will turn around? It's not like hockey's roots run deep in Dallas. Ownership problems are a serious problem, not an excuse for low attendance.

I don't have a crystal ball, but I'm just saying ....

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05-22-2011, 05:56 PM
  #53
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Minnesota currently has the worst travel in the NHL.
Minnesota to Denver -> 848 miles

Dallas to Phoenix -> 1,064 mi

That's both closest teams in their division.

Minnesota to Vancouver -> 1,800 mi (2 time zones)

Minnesota to Edmonton -> 1,236 mi (1 time zone)

Minnesota to Calgary -> 1,198 mi (1 time zone)


Dallas to San Jose -> 1,689 mi (2 time zones)

Dallas to Los Angeles -> 1,433 mi (2 time zones)

Dallas to Anaheim -> 1,426 mi (2 time zones)

Minnesota has 3 teams they play a time zone away (Calgary, Edmonton, Colorado) and 1 team they play 2 time zones away (Vancouver)

Dallas has 1 team that players a time zone away (Phoenix) and 3 that play 2 time zones away (San Jose, Anaheim, Los Angeles).

I would say that Dallas has a worst schedule, both in time zones and in distance than Minnesota...

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And still would if that were to happen. Minnesota has a built-in division and familiarity there for the taking. Dallas and to a lesser extent, Colorado, do not. Your putting Minnesota out on an island (like Dallas and Colorado) when it isn't needed.
The problem is with Minnesota and Colorado, they are both in a division they don't fit really closely with. Dallas the same way. But for some odd reason, the NHL doesn't seem fit to adjust their division to have an imbalance.

So the best situation for Colorado would be to move to the Pacific Division (Phoenix is 822 mi but in the same time zone) and then move Dallas to Central, especially if Winnipeg joins the NW division.

Until the NHL expands either into the Pacific Division (Seattle, another team in Alberta, British Columbia, Las Vegas), Minnesota is kind of screwed in terms of divisions especially if Winnipeg joins the division as it is extremely close (465 mi).

As well, Minnesota DOES NOT have the rivalries of the North Stars. In fact, I would say Dallas has more a rivalry with Detroit than Minnesota has with any Central team...

It's dead.

That rivalry died when Minnesota moved in 1991 and that's what people are trying to keep alive when they should move and build different rivalries.

You know what? A Winnipeg/Minnesota rivalry might be awesome given the close distance.

We also built a strong rivalry with Vancouver and with Edmonton.

Things change, teams change. And right now, Minnesota, Colorado, and Dallas are in divisions that simply don't make sense for them.

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I appreciate your optimism, but they missed the playoffs this season, and given the state of the Western Conference, that is a distinct possibility next season as well. Their system doesn't really have blue chip talent to provide hope of a quick turnaround, and there is a good chance they lose their leading scorer for nothing.
They have OWNERSHIP issues. Hicks has lost the Rangers and is losing the Stars. Right now they can't spend money.

And Glennie I think is pretty blue chip.

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Almost 1 in 5 tickets went unsold last season. Why should i believe that will turn around? It's not like hockey's roots run deep in Dallas. Ownership problems are a serious problem, not an excuse for low attendance.
Yes they do. Now they do. The team has been there for 20 years. It's going through a bit of a rough spot but they have built a long lasting relationship with the city and the state. They just expanded into Austin for their farm team. It is a strong and local group.

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I don't have a crystal ball, but I'm just saying ....
I know what you're saying and I know what Wild fans think of Dallas due to them being the North Stars.

But it's time to move on. The North Stars are gone and Dallas is fine. They hit a rough spot but it's not like other organizations haven't hit rough spots in the past.


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05-22-2011, 06:40 PM
  #54
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We already lost the North Stars. We should never see them get preferential treatment at our expense. Forget the so-called rivalries that aren't really rivalries at all. Base it on reality and common sense. They say Minnesota to the Central.

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05-22-2011, 07:03 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by thespeckledkiwi View Post
As well, Minnesota DOES NOT have the rivalries of the North Stars. In fact, I would say Dallas has more a rivalry with Detroit than Minnesota has with any Central team...

It's dead.

That rivalry died when Minnesota moved in 1991 and that's what people are trying to keep alive when they should move and build different rivalries.
I never said that there's a rivalry there with any team in the Central. However, given the NFL, MLB,and the carry over in the midwest, it's logical that if any two teams are relevant, the angst will carry over from there. That definitely isn't there in the Northwest and never will be.

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You know what? A Winnipeg/Minnesota rivalry might be awesome given the close distance.
Close distance? Wha?

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We also built a strong rivalry with Vancouver and with Edmonton.
Huh?

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05-22-2011, 07:07 PM
  #56
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I never said that there's a rivalry there with any team in the Central. However, given the NFL, MLB,and the carry over in the midwest, it's logical that if any two teams are relevant, the angst will carry over from there. That definitely isn't there in the Northwest and never will be.



Close distance? Wha?



Huh?
I'll agree with Kiwi on these points. WPG will be about the same (driving) distance as Chicago, our closest neighbor. And I thought quite a few of our games with the Nucks and Eddy were pretty memorable. Like the "Rypien Incident," and that PIM record we set against the Oilers toward the end of the season.

That doesn't mean I won't get excited about playing Chicago and St. Louis more often, though.

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05-22-2011, 07:14 PM
  #57
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Ever drove to Winnipeg from the Twin Cities? What about getting through the border recently?

That cluster bleep doesn't compare to driving to Chicago which is the easier drive (outside of the Sconnie police).

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05-22-2011, 07:17 PM
  #58
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Ever drove to Winnipeg from the Twin Cities? What about getting through the border recently?

That cluster bleep doesn't compare to driving to Chicago which is the easier drive (outside of the Sconnie police).
Yeah, I have made the drive. Getting through the border wasn't a problem to go to MTS Centre for a Moose game in November. Has it gotten way worse since?

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05-22-2011, 07:42 PM
  #59
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And you really think that drive compares to Chicago?

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05-22-2011, 07:44 PM
  #60
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It's short enough for a hockey road trip, and it's a really easy drive. Straight and fast. It's not an exciting drive by any means, but I'll definitely be going to a Jets game next year.

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05-22-2011, 07:51 PM
  #61
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I never said that there's a rivalry there with any team in the Central. However, given the NFL, MLB,and the carry over in the midwest, it's logical that if any two teams are relevant, the angst will carry over from there. That definitely isn't there in the Northwest and never will be.
I noticed you disregarded the other arguments.

Logic, but not really.

We definitely have built a huge rivalry with Edmonton and their fans. Boogaard, now Clutterbuck pisses them off.

Vancouver and Minnesota have a huge history with each other.

Just doesn't seem logical to break up some growing relations just because it's convenient.

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05-22-2011, 07:58 PM
  #62
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Vancouver and Minnesota have a huge history with each other.
Only in the minds of Minnesotans. Ask any Canuck fan and I'd bet that we aren't even on their radar as even having "history".

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05-22-2011, 08:06 PM
  #63
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We definitely have built a huge rivalry with Edmonton and their fans. Boogaard, now Clutterbuck pisses them off.

Vancouver and Minnesota have a huge history with each other.
Again. Huh?

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05-22-2011, 08:48 PM
  #64
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We definitely have built a huge rivalry with Edmonton and their fans. Boogaard, now Clutterbuck pisses them off.
One player that pisses off another team's fans does not make that team a rival.

I wonder if the NHL would consider divisions of uneven size as in baseball. Assuming Nashville moved to the Southeast, the NHL could move both Dallas and Minnesota into the Central, and Colorado into the Pacific, leaving just a four-team division of Western Canadian teams. Maybe that's unrealistic.

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05-22-2011, 10:07 PM
  #65
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For the NHL, the choice will be this:

!. Build up a hockey stronghold, given it's long and storied history with the game, by giving them division rivals that have a tradition in that area.

2. Attempt to save another struggling sun belt franchise by trying to reignite ancient rivalries that existed when they were in another market, with a whole different group of players and fans.

If it were MY choice, I'd play to my strengths, and build up what could be a top NHL market; knowing the NHL, it'll probably go the way kiwi wants.

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05-22-2011, 10:52 PM
  #66
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For the NHL, the choice will be this:

!. Build up a hockey stronghold, given it's long and storied history with the game, by giving them division rivals that have a tradition in that area.
North Stars are now the Stars and they have a history with the Blackhawks. Plus the Stars have had a history with the Red Wings.

What long history does the Wild really have?

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2. Attempt to save another struggling sun belt franchise by trying to reignite ancient rivalries that existed when they were in another market, with a whole different group of players and fans.
Another struggling sun belt franchise? Okay, I'm taking this to the NHL General.

You guys are trying to reignite ancient rivalries with the 'Hawks, when it's been what? 20 years since the North Stars and the 'Hawks had any history together?

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If it were MY choice, I'd play to my strengths, and build up what could be a top NHL market; knowing the NHL, it'll probably go the way kiwi wants.
No, what I want is both Minnesota AND Dallas in one Division but the NHL doesn't appear want to have uneven divisions, for some odd reason.

What you guys are forgetting is the TV Market as well.

It sucks for a team like Dallas to be playing three of their teams in a market that is 2 hours behind them. So if they have a 8-9 O'clock game, it's 10-11 already at night in Dallas.

Dallas makes the logical sense in terms of TV Market, in terms of rivalries, in terms of travel.

Minnesota makes logical sense in terms of travel and possibly TV market.

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05-22-2011, 11:13 PM
  #67
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It's sort of a double standard to attribute the rivalries to the franchise and not the region, especially when there is such glaring evidence that teams nearest each other have the most intense rivalries. Minnesota's rivalries with the Hawks and the Red Wings are just as distant in the past as the Star's same rivalries - because they existed in Minnesota. Consider also that, for a team like the Blackhawks that suffered under the Wirtz ownership for so long, there has probably been a lot of recent turnover in the fan base. The Red Wings have gone from the Dead Things to a four-time Stanley Cup winner in that span, too. I just don't see how the "Stars" are really a bigger draw than a regional rival except for the excessively nostalgic.

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05-23-2011, 12:29 AM
  #68
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Am I missing something here? Wouldnt Colorado pretty much have the final say in this argument?

If we are assuming that Winnipeg moves to the NW and one of Colmbus/Nashville move to the SE.

That would leave the Central 1 team short and the NW one team heavy, the simple solution would seem to be to move 1 team from the NW to the Central correct?

For Dallas to move to the Central, one of the NW teams would have to want to move to the Pacific?

If Colorado doesnt want to leave the NW, why would the NHL upset 2 teams to make 1 happy?

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05-23-2011, 01:28 AM
  #69
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Am I missing something here? Wouldnt Colorado pretty much have the final say in this argument?
Possibly but what is Colorado going to do if they don't say yes?

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If we are assuming that Winnipeg moves to the NW and one of Colmbus/Nashville move to the SE.
Or Detroit to the NE and a NE team move down. They could juggle the entire roster around.

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That would leave the Central 1 team short and the NW one team heavy, the simple solution would seem to be to move 1 team from the NW to the Central correct?
Except Dallas is pretty much screwed and I don't think they or their fans have been happy with being in the Pacific.

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For Dallas to move to the Central, one of the NW teams would have to want to move to the Pacific?
Vancouver or Colorado...Everyone gets a new team!

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If Colorado doesnt want to leave the NW, why would the NHL upset 2 teams to make 1 happy?
To make the networks happy?

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05-23-2011, 01:30 AM
  #70
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It's sort of a double standard to attribute the rivalries to the franchise and not the region, especially when there is such glaring evidence that teams nearest each other have the most intense rivalries. Minnesota's rivalries with the Hawks and the Red Wings are just as distant in the past as the Star's same rivalries - because they existed in Minnesota. Consider also that, for a team like the Blackhawks that suffered under the Wirtz ownership for so long, there has probably been a lot of recent turnover in the fan base. The Red Wings have gone from the Dead Things to a four-time Stanley Cup winner in that span, too. I just don't see how the "Stars" are really a bigger draw than a regional rival except for the excessively nostalgic.
Actually Dallas has still a small rivalry with some of the Central teams.

Minnesota nor Dallas really have any real rivalries, it's just a matter of TV network draw, travel and logic.

It doesn't make sense to replace Minnesota with Winnipeg in the NW division as Colorado now is in the same position as Dallas...except with two teams in their own network but a large travel time.

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05-23-2011, 06:19 PM
  #71
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Possibly but what is Colorado going to do if they don't say yes?



Or Detroit to the NE and a NE team move down. They could juggle the entire roster around.



Except Dallas is pretty much screwed and I don't think they or their fans have been happy with being in the Pacific.



Vancouver or Colorado...Everyone gets a new team!



To make the networks happy?
I guess I just dont understand why you seem so bent on making Dallas happy.

It doesnt matter what team from the Central moves to the Eastern conference, or what division they go to. The West is still going to be 1 team short for the Central.
None of the Canadian or West Coast teams are going to want to move to the Central. That leaves Dallas, Colorado or Minnesota as the only options. I am going to assume that Colorado wants nothing to do with moving to the Central. That leaves Minnesota and Dallas.

I am also assuming that Winnipeg wants to be in the Northwest with the other Canadian teams. That would leave the NW with an extra team, If Minnesota is the only team that WANTS to leave the NW this just seems way to simple for me. Why Piss off 2 teams just to make 1 Happy?

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05-23-2011, 06:33 PM
  #72
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I guess I just dont understand why you seem so bent on making Dallas happy.
Easy one... he lives in Texas...

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05-23-2011, 11:25 PM
  #73
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One other reason I'd like to see the Wild go to the Central, and Nashville to the SE: an aging Red Wings dynasty, a Hawks team still in cap hell, and Columbus looks better than a division with a likely conference finalist, and Colorado and Edmonton who have been sucking up top 5 picks. The NW gonna be tough in a few years.

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05-24-2011, 01:10 AM
  #74
thestonedkoala
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I guess I just dont understand why you seem so bent on making Dallas happy.
Because frankly Dallas is in a spot worse than Minnesota in terms of scheduling and in terms of relocation.

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It doesnt matter what team from the Central moves to the Eastern conference, or what division they go to. The West is still going to be 1 team short for the Central.
None of the Canadian or West Coast teams are going to want to move to the Central. That leaves Dallas, Colorado or Minnesota as the only options. I am going to assume that Colorado wants nothing to do with moving to the Central. That leaves Minnesota and Dallas.

I am also assuming that Winnipeg wants to be in the Northwest with the other Canadian teams. That would leave the NW with an extra team, If Minnesota is the only team that WANTS to leave the NW this just seems way to simple for me. Why Piss off 2 teams just to make 1 Happy?
Again you guys don't understand the TV Market. Dallas is in a terrible position TV marketing wise.

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05-24-2011, 03:16 PM
  #75
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Because frankly Dallas is in a spot worse than Minnesota in terms of scheduling and in terms of relocation.



Again you guys don't understand the TV Market. Dallas is in a terrible position TV marketing wise.
Dallas is further from St. Paul for at least 3 central teams (Detroit, Chicago, Columbus), moving Dallas to the central makes travel longer for 3 teams, while only helping one, whereas moving Minnesota to the central makes travel better for Minnesota plus Detroit, Chicago, and Columbus.

As for the TV market thing, people in Detroit and Columbus have to stay up till 10 or 10:30 for the start of a west coast game, it sucks, but Dallas is not the only one with TV market problems.

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