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05-24-2011, 09:36 AM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
I get the third liner part (even though I don't agree with it) but the bold is just
I didn't see him within 15 ft of the B's net the whole series. He doesn't get the dirty goals,i haven't even seen him give a goalie a"snow shower". Never.

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05-24-2011, 09:38 AM
  #527
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AK would significantly strengthen both Vancouver's and Boston's top 6. AK is better than Mason Raymond and better than Rechhi.

Ever team has holes in their top 6 because of the salary cap. Top 6 players are not all superstars.
BC of the cap.I think most teams have a 1st and 4th line,and generally the 2nd and 3rd lines are pretty close in terms of production,and pretty interchangeable

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05-24-2011, 10:03 AM
  #528
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Top 2 D? Top 4 D? Top 6 D? Everything is relative. The same player could fall into any of these categories depending on the team he's playing for. Right now the Habs have quantity rather than quality, and quantity doesn't necessarily equate with depth. Being the best (or 2nd best) Dman on any given team doesn't automatically make him one of the best 30 (or 60) in the NHL and so on down the line. The same criterion applies to forwards, except that we're referring to a larger player pool.
Hmmm, isn't that EXACTLY what it means?
If you are the best Dman of ''ANY team'', doesn't that make you the best NHL dman???
If you're the 2nd best Dman of ''any team'' , it means that at worst, you are 31st.

I understand the thought behind what you said. Seidenberg is averaging the most Dman for the Bruins, but he'd likely get a lot less in Vancouver, Plekanec wouldn't be the 1st line center in Detroit or Anaheim, etc..

I disagree with you however in having quantity over quality. If we re-sign what we expect, Markov-Gorges-PK is top notch quality.
Weber has great potential in him as well, I would classify him as a quality prospect.
Starting the year with possibly having Spacek as a 7th D is a big luxury, not a poor quantity problem.

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Great post,and it pertains to calling Gorges a top 4 dman, and AK a top 6.On a good team Gorges is a very good bottom pairing,and AK is a perimeter playing 3rd liner
If you're third liner pots in 20G+ with 45pts. Vancouver didn't even get that much production from Raymond who's part of their top 6 and they were the best offensive team in the NHL.
Same thing for Detroit, they don't have 3rd liners scoring that much.

Maybe in Philly because they have great centers with Richards, Briere and Giroux. But I fail to see how this is the norm for being good. It isn't, but hey, we might actually get that considering we have two center prospect with great offensive upside in Eller and DD. If Gomez rebounds, Plek plays like he always does and one of Eller/DD flourishes down the middle, we could have great offensive depth.

Gorges in the bottom six wouldn't be the sign of a good D, it's an all-star caliber D corps.

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05-24-2011, 10:05 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by jlgib21 View Post
BC of the cap.I think most teams have a 1st and 4th line,and generally the 2nd and 3rd lines are pretty close in terms of production,and pretty interchangeable
Maybe you should do some research before saying stuff like that. You've just shown you don't know much about most teams.

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05-24-2011, 11:58 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Hmmm, isn't that EXACTLY what it means?
If you are the best Dman of ''ANY team'', doesn't that make you the best NHL dman???
If you're the 2nd best Dman of ''any team'' , it means that at worst, you are 31st.

I understand the thought behind what you said. Seidenberg is averaging the most Dman for the Bruins, but he'd likely get a lot less in Vancouver, Plekanec wouldn't be the 1st line center in Detroit or Anaheim, etc..

I disagree with you however in having quantity over quality. If we re-sign what we expect, Markov-Gorges-PK is top notch quality.
Weber has great potential in him as well, I would classify him as a quality prospect.
Starting the year with possibly having Spacek as a 7th D is a big luxury, not a poor quantity problem.



If you're third liner pots in 20G+ with 45pts. Vancouver didn't even get that much production from Raymond who's part of their top 6 and they were the best offensive team in the NHL.
Same thing for Detroit, they don't have 3rd liners scoring that much.

Maybe in Philly because they have great centers with Richards, Briere and Giroux. But I fail to see how this is the norm for being good. It isn't, but hey, we might actually get that considering we have two center prospect with great offensive upside in Eller and DD. If Gomez rebounds, Plek plays like he always does and one of Eller/DD flourishes down the middle, we could have great offensive depth.

Gorges in the bottom six wouldn't be the sign of a good D, it's an all-star caliber D corps.
Agree with some, but disagree with most. No way will Spacek become our 7th dman, to say it as some sort of proof we have good D is kinda strange, since he quite clearly falls into the top 6.

Gorges is nothing more than a bottom pairing dman. I don't know when and where he became a top 3 or 4 dman, but he isn't. He is a very one dimensional defensive dman, good on the bottom pairing and capable of covering for short stints in the top 4, other than that, we agree. lol

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05-24-2011, 12:05 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Agree with some, but disagree with most. No way will Spacek become our 7th dman, to say it as some sort of proof we have good D is kinda strange, since he quite clearly falls into the top 6.

Gorges is nothing more than a bottom pairing dman. I don't know when and where he became a top 3 or 4 dman, but he isn't. He is a very one dimensional defensive dman, good on the bottom pairing and capable of covering for short stints in the top 4, other than that, we agree. lol
Gorges is a fantastic defensive defenseman. His coverage is supurb. He's the perfect compliment to a player that needs protection or support at even strength, weather it is making up for Gill's lack of mobility or allowing Markov to pinch deeper in the offensive zone. Thinking otherwise either displays an ignorance of how effective a player Gorges is or how deep one should expect an NHL defense to be. He and Subban would make an awesome shutdown pairing together.

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05-24-2011, 12:16 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Gorges is a fantastic defensive defenseman. His coverage is supurb. He's the perfect compliment to a player that needs protection or support at even strength, weather it is making up for Gill's lack of mobility or allowing Markov to pinch deeper in the offensive zone. Thinking otherwise either displays an ignorance of how effective a player Gorges is or how deep one should expect an NHL defense to be. He and Subban would make an awesome shutdown pairing together.
I agree.

TSN made a top 5 of best defensive D-Men in the NHL last year and Gorges was at #5.

The guy's zone positioning and understanding of the game is incredible, and he's not afraid to take any kind of hit to play the puck first. He's still underestimated by many...

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05-24-2011, 12:27 PM
  #533
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As far as I recall only Philly and Boston seem to be like that. (3 legitimate scoring lines)

Other teams have a 3rd line that steps up now and then and surely do get points, they are a scoring line, but they're a 3A not a 2B.

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05-24-2011, 12:44 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Gorges is a fantastic defensive defenseman. His coverage is supurb. He's the perfect compliment to a player that needs protection or support at even strength, weather it is making up for Gill's lack of mobility or allowing Markov to pinch deeper in the offensive zone. Thinking otherwise either displays an ignorance of how effective a player Gorges is or how deep one should expect an NHL defense to be. He and Subban would make an awesome shutdown pairing together.
Sry, but he's simply not that good. Habs fans been over rating him for years.

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05-24-2011, 12:47 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Agree with some, but disagree with most. No way will Spacek become our 7th dman, to say it as some sort of proof we have good D is kinda strange, since he quite clearly falls into the top 6.

Gorges is nothing more than a bottom pairing dman. I don't know when and where he became a top 3 or 4 dman, but he isn't. He is a very one dimensional defensive dman, good on the bottom pairing and capable of covering for short stints in the top 4, other than that, we agree. lol
Gorges is a legitimate 2nd pairing D. He is not at all one dimensional as he makes a great first pass and has filled in on the 2nd pp unit at times.
3rd pairing D men are usually big strong guys who rely on banking the puck off the boards or pp specialists. I would put Gorges at Hamhuis' level with Hamhuis having an edge offensively and Gorges the defensive edge.

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05-24-2011, 12:48 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Sry, but he's simply not that good. Habs fans been over rating him for years.
How is a defensemen who plays 22-25 responsible minutes against oppositions top players overrated, especially when members of non-habs media have also recognized his defensive abilities?

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05-24-2011, 12:58 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
How is a defensemen who plays 22-25 responsible minutes against oppositions top players overrated, especially when members of non-habs media have also recognized his defensive abilities?
Because we have too many stat nerds on these boards. It was so much better years ago before the influx of children hijacked this site.

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05-24-2011, 12:59 PM
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How is a defensemen who plays 22-25 responsible minutes against oppositions top players overrated, especially when members of non-habs media have also recognized his defensive abilities?
You've been spewing this 22-25 minutes crap for way too long.

The short answer is, Josh Gorges doesn't play these minutes.

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05-24-2011, 01:04 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
You've been spewing this 22-25 minutes crap for way too long.

The short answer is, Josh Gorges doesn't play these minutes.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...eason=20102011

You're right he doesn't.

He averages 21 minutes a night by playing only 10. Note how his ice-time drops when people noticed he was playing injured.

Here's the year before.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...92010&view=log

You're right, I'm inventing numbers.

ATOI this year was 21:10
Last year it was 21:00

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05-24-2011, 01:08 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
How is a defensemen who plays 22-25 responsible minutes against oppositions top players overrated, especially when members of non-habs media have also recognized his defensive abilities?
The last 3 years Gorges has averaged 20, 21 and 21 minutes a night. I think ideally he plays 20 minutes per night as a #4 guy with PK responsibilities and no PP.

If he is your #1-2-3 you are probably not a playoff team...or at least one that barely sneaks in.

Ideally we would have Markov PK plus Wisniewski/UFA as top 3...Gorges as #4 then Spacek Yemelin Weber(if you can move Spacek then Gill or UFA).

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05-24-2011, 01:10 PM
  #541
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The last 3 years Gorges has averaged 20, 21 and 21 minutes a night. I think ideally he plays 20 minutes per night as a #4 guy with PK responsibilities and no PP.

If he is your #1-2-3 you are probably not a playoff team...or at least one that barely sneaks in.

Ideally we would have Markov PK plus Wisniewski/UFA as top 3...Gorges as #4 then Spacek Yemelin Weber(if you can move Spacek then Gill or UFA).
I've never argued that Gorges is a #1 d-man. He certainly is far from a bottom pairing dman, which some people do try to argue. He's been recognized by multiple media outlets for the game that he brings.

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05-24-2011, 01:11 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...eason=20102011

You're right he doesn't.

He averages 21 minutes a night by playing only 10. Note how his ice-time drops when people noticed he was playing injured.

Here's the year before.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...92010&view=log

You're right, I'm inventing numbers.

ATOI this year was 21:10
Last year it was 21:00
Excellent post.

I wouldn't bother getting into an argument with him/her, everyone knows who is right, no point in getting frustrated. Every knowledgeable fan knows what Gorges brings to the line-up.

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05-24-2011, 01:20 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
You've been spewing this 22-25 minutes crap for way too long.

The short answer is, Josh Gorges doesn't play these minutes.
Gorges averaged 21:10 in 2009/10 but his minutes increased as the year went on and by year end he was playing in the 22-25 minute range. He was averaging nearly 23 minutes through the first 10 games this season before his knee started limiting his minutes.

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05-24-2011, 01:36 PM
  #544
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Agree with some, but disagree with most. No way will Spacek become our 7th dman, to say it as some sort of proof we have good D is kinda strange, since he quite clearly falls into the top 6.

I said ''possibly'' the 7th D.
Markov-Gorges-PK-Weber-Spacek-Emelin. That is 6 Dmen already.
I expect us to sign a Ehrhoff or Wiz type, and perhaps even another.
You can argue that Weber would be the odd man out, but personally, I think this kid needs to play and if it comes at the expense of Spacek, so be it. But maybe Emelin will get the boot and head back to Russia as well. Maybe Spacek will come into camp in terrific shape. Time will tell, which is why I said ''Possibly''.


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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
You've been spewing this 22-25 minutes crap for way too long.

The short answer is, Josh Gorges doesn't play these minutes.
Gorges averaged the 2nd most ice time among Dmen last year in the POs, at 22:41, going as high as 26min+.
So yea, he actually does play those minutes at times.
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Gorges is nothing more than a bottom pairing dman. I don't know when and where he became a top 3 or 4 dman, but he isn't. He is a very one dimensional defensive dman, good on the bottom pairing and capable of covering for short stints in the top 4, other than that, we agree. lol
Gorges is a top 4. Your bottom D pairing are usually not capable of handling 20min/gp.
As I said, if he's in the bottom pairing in terms of minutes, then you have yourself a pretty deep group of Dmen.
I do agree most Habs fan overrate him, but that doesn't take anything away from his solid play.

I said ''possibly'' the 7th D.
Markov-Gorges-PK-Weber-Spacek-Emelin. That is 6 Dmen already.
I expect us to sign a Ehrhoff or Wiz type, and perhaps even another.
You can argue that Weber would be the odd man out, but personally, I think this kid needs to play and if it comes at the expense of Spacek, so be it. But maybe Emelin will get the boot and head back to Russia as well. Maybe Spacek will come into camp in terrific shape. Time will tell, which is why I said ''Possibly''.

As for Gorges.

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05-24-2011, 01:40 PM
  #545
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I've never argued that Gorges is a #1 d-man. He certainly is far from a bottom pairing dman, which some people do try to argue. He's been recognized by multiple media outlets for the game that he brings.
You argued he played 22-25m per night, which he doesn't. 21, is not 22. If he played 22-25minutes a night he would average between 22-25 a night, not 21. It's funny what one good playoff run can do for a team enjoying very little success. Josh Gorges received more minutes than he should of because the teams number 1 defenceman has been out for 2 years. Not to mention JM plays a defence first system that would enable Gorges to get more minutes on top of that.

He is a more mobile, but less effective shutdown man than Hal Gill.

Exaggerating and making up numbers don't prove your point. If he was playing 25minutes per night on average, he'd be a top pairing dman, which he isn't.

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05-24-2011, 01:46 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
You argued he played 22-25m per night, which he doesn't. 21, is not 22. If he played 22-25minutes a night he would average between 22-25 a night, not 21. It's funny what one good playoff run can do for a team enjoying very little success. Josh Gorges received more minutes than he should of because the teams number 1 defenceman has been out for 2 years. Not to mention JM plays a defence first system that would enable Gorges to get more minutes on top of that.

He is a more mobile, but less effective shutdown man than Hal Gill.

Exaggerating and making up numbers don't prove your point. If he was playing 25minutes per night on average, he'd be a top pairing dman, which he isn't.
beautiful strauman argument you have there. You do realize you're arguing for literally one minute right? And it's not an exaggeration. Some nights he plays 25 minutes, other nights he plays 20. He's also doing this against the opposing team's top lines and doing a pretty good job. Also Gorges continued to recive those minutes at the begining of the season while we had Markov healthy, so i don't buy that argument. His ice time diminished because he was hurt.

Gorges has also a much better first pass than Hal Gill.

Also I never said he was a top pairing defensemen. He is a top 4 d-man and far from a bottom pairing one.

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05-24-2011, 01:50 PM
  #547
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beautiful strauman argument you have there. You do realize you're arguing for literally one minute right? And it's not an exaggeration. Some nights he plays 25 minutes, other nights he plays 20. He's also doing this against the opposing team's top lines and doing a pretty good job.

Gorges has also a much better first pass than Hal Gill.

Also I never said he was a top pairing defensemen. He is a top 4 d-man and far from a bottom pairing one.
It's not one minute, it's actually 1-4 minutes, you realize the difference between Spacek and Gorges ice time is you guessed it, 1minute, right? The fact he played more than he is capable of may have contributed to his knee injury as well. With a healthy lineup Gorges plays even less minutes. With a difference coach, even less again. There's no strawman here, 1-4minutes is huge. You exaggerated, not me.

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05-24-2011, 01:53 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
It's not one minute, it's actually 1-4 minutes, you realize the difference between Spacek and Gorges ice time is you guessed it, 1minute, right? The fact he played more than he is capable of may have contributed to his knee injury as well. With a healthy lineup Gorges plays even less minutes. With a difference coach, even less again. There's no strawman here, 1-4minutes is huge. You exaggerated, not me.
I didn't exaggerate anything. So I'm off by one minute, why don't you relax a little. And it actually was 1 minute until he actually got hurt.

Also like I said, gorges was playing those minutes even when the lineup was healthy and only had his ice time diminished when he got hurt and was playing injured.

The only thing that is exaggerated here is your reaction to people talking about Gorges.

Lastly, the difference between gorges and Spacek may be one minute, but that doesn't say anything about the quality of defenseman one is over the other.

Gorges is a top 4 d-man on an overwhelming majority of teams in the league, only in Montreal is that a problem for some fans.

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05-24-2011, 01:59 PM
  #549
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OUPS sorry guys I think the link doesn't work, thought I had clicked on the Emelin topic

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05-24-2011, 02:18 PM
  #550
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I really don't get how you can say what you're saying. You say he doesn't play 22-25 minutes, that he only averages 21. Okay, he only averages 21. But you do realize in order for the average to be 21, he'd need to either play 21 minutes a game always (not the case) or he'd need to play some games at 18 minutes, others at 24 minutes, etc.

I mean really you are arguing over 2 minutes in terms of the average. 22-25 = 23.5 avg, Gorges averages 21. Okay so the poster should have said he plays 17-25 minutes a night then, rather than saying 22-25 which averages to 23.5. But regardless of that mistake, you're either completely missing the point or arguing for the sake or argument.

I don't mind either way but it's just funny that 2 minutes of ice time on average means so much to you when the guy has shown he's perfectly capable in the games he did play in the 22-25 minute range, and that's all that matters when discussing if Gorges is a top 4 player at all. I'm not saying that doesn't mean on a solid team he's a last pairing D. But on tons of average and obviously below average teams, he's at least a #4.

He plays big minutes against other teams better players and does not look out of place doing it. You undervalue him, if it's due to the fact that he puts up little to no offensive production, then I agree to some extent, his skill set puts him in the #5-6 range, but his stellar defensive play brings him up that 1-2 spots imo. I'm not saying he's a #1 shutdown D on the best defensive team in the NHL, but you're certainly selling the guy short.

To put it simply, if you aren't a #7d on some of the best defensive teams in the NHL, you're likely at minimum a #5 in general. Gorges would never be a #7d on any team in the NHL. I could see him as a #4 or a #5, #6 very unlikely. (Even on our team when it's Gill-Gorges as 5 and 6, he's the > D on that pairing, making him the #5)

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