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Old
05-26-2011, 05:47 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
When you strip the C from someone you are telling them you have no confidence in them. You usually trade the player after you do that.

There is a reason for that.
Not true. See Marleau in San Jose and Lecavalier in Tampa. The players were kept on board and the teams ultimately seemed to benefit from the situation.

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05-26-2011, 05:48 PM
  #52
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Not true. See Marleau in San Jose and Lecavalier in Tampa. The players were kept on board and the teams ultimately seemed to benefit from the situation.
He said, USUALLY, and he's absolutely correct.

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05-26-2011, 05:52 PM
  #53
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Blah blah blah blah and blah. I can't believe I'm wasting my time but I'm tired of reading such stupid nonsense.

Mike Richards isn't captain for you, me, anyone posting here or watching from their couch. He's the captain for the Flyers, and if there were issues on the team and the PLAYERS didn't want him as captain, or didn't feel like he was a good captain, then he would be captain no more.

None of us know anything that goes on inside the team. Even some beat reporters don't have a clue.

So if the GM and assistant captains on the team are good with Richards wearing the C, then I'm ok with it it too. It's pretty ridiculous to see the average joe fanboy saying he should be stripped of the C when we know nothing about the situation.

End rant.

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05-26-2011, 05:57 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Not true. See Marleau in San Jose and Lecavalier in Tampa. The players were kept on board and the teams ultimately seemed to benefit from the situation.
Lecavalier lost the C because he missed the start of a season due to contract negotiations, and because Tortorella was the coach. Tortorella isn't a patient man.

SJ stripping the C from Marleau has yet to lead them to any more success then they had while he was the captain.

Either way, those are exceptions...plus, Marleau has a NTC and might not have been willing to leave or was perfectly willing to give up the C when they asked for it back.

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05-26-2011, 06:04 PM
  #55
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Silly Canadians, adding "u" to rumor and humor...
What exactly are you going on aboot?

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05-26-2011, 06:06 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Blah blah blah blah and blah. I can't believe I'm wasting my time but I'm tired of reading such stupid nonsense.

Mike Richards isn't captain for you, me, anyone posting here or watching from their couch. He's the captain for the Flyers, and if there were issues on the team and the PLAYERS didn't want him as captain, or didn't feel like he was a good captain, then he would be captain no more.

None of us know anything that goes on inside the team. Even some beat reporters don't have a clue.

So if the GM and assistant captains on the team are good with Richards wearing the C, then I'm ok with it it too. It's pretty ridiculous to see the average joe fanboy saying he should be stripped of the C when we know nothing about the situation.

End rant.
Whatever, I hope everyone enjoys their Captain while he continues to do his "on the job training" in learning how to manage the role. I for one don't have some allegiance to Richards in that role and can see better suited candidates on the roster. I truly don't think the team will make this move, but I'm still entitled to my opinion as an educated hockey player and fan of the Flyers and the sport for over 30 years.

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05-26-2011, 06:09 PM
  #57
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Dear Timmy,

WC jerseys aren't confirmed yet. You're still an idiot though.

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05-26-2011, 06:26 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Whatever, I hope everyone enjoys their Captain while he continues to do his "on the job training" in learning how to manage the role. I for one don't have some allegiance to Richards in that role and can see better suited candidates on the roster. I truly don't think the team will make this move, but I'm still entitled to my opinion as an educated hockey player and fan of the Flyers and the sport for over 30 years.
Steve Yzerman was often panned as a horrible captain. Then, for some reason after the 1996/97 season, those voices slowly faded to the background. Now he's considered one of the greatest leaders in the history of the league.

The organization has seen a lot of similarities between the way Richards approaches the game and how Bob Clarke approached the game. I cannot see any reason why they would now strip Richards of the captaincy, one season removed from the Stanley Cup Final and after a season where he essentially played with one arm (why they didn't address this early, I have no idea). If anything, it reinforces the notion that Richards is the right player to wear the 'C'.

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05-26-2011, 06:38 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Not true. See Marleau in San Jose and Lecavalier in Tampa. The players were kept on board and the teams ultimately seemed to benefit from the situation.
Tell me, how exactly did the Sharks benefit from stripping Marleau of the C? Because they are in the exact same spot this year as they were last year.

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Whatever, I hope everyone enjoys their Captain while he continues to do his "on the job training" in learning how to manage the role. I for one don't have some allegiance to Richards in that role and can see better suited candidates on the roster. I truly don't think the team will make this move, but I'm still entitled to my opinion as an educated hockey player and fan of the Flyers and the sport for over 30 years.
You are taking the term "on the job training" too literally. It's not like he's been taken from sleepy Kenora and has been thrown in the middle of leading a squad in ****ing Iraq. He's a young captain. That's exactly what Pronger means.

People are allowed to speak up even if they aren't the captain. That's what Pronger does on a daily basis, that's what Briere did during the Buffalo series, and I'm sure Kimmo has done it before. This team has players that will scream at people, whether they're the captain or not. Richards' quiet, lead-by-example leadership is perfectly fine for being captain.

If Briere was an ideal person to be captain, there wouldn't have been a captain by rotation system in Buffalo.

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05-26-2011, 06:40 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Whatever, I hope everyone enjoys their Captain while he continues to do his "on the job training" in learning how to manage the role. I for one don't have some allegiance to Richards in that role and can see better suited candidates on the roster. I truly don't think the team will make this move, but I'm still entitled to my opinion as an educated hockey player and fan of the Flyers and the sport for over 30 years.
He's been captain at every level has won championships. You hear Briere say "I'm not ready to go home" one time and he should be captain. One bad playoffs, from the entire team, and Richards is a terrible captain. Did you want him stripped after last season's finals appearance? Sounds like you're just buying what the papers are selling.

And I love the argument of being an educated hockey player, I played the sport yada yada. Yea me too. Doesn't mean me or you knows what's going on in the dressing room, does it? Where's your facts to strip him because he's a terrible leader? Your fandom and "experience" says it's the right move? It's just a baseless argument that you're being fed to by a few journalists. You're entitled to any opinion you want, and I'm entitled talk about how silly it is.

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05-26-2011, 06:50 PM
  #61
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I thought everyone was over the captain ********.

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05-26-2011, 10:19 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
He's been captain at every level has won championships.
I hear this line used a lot, but I think it's a bit misleading. He had times where he wasn't captain, or where teams he's captained came up short. Let's take a closer look.

-In Junior, he wasn't appointed Captain until after the loaded Kitchener Rangers won the CHL championship in 2003. Interestingly, after being appointed captain, his Ranger team did not win another championship those next two seasons.

-Richards was on Team Canada at the World Jrs., and lost in 2004. Richards was Captain in 2005, when Team Canada's stacked 2005 team won Gold (Carter was an all-star, as the year before, Richards, no so much)


-After his Kitchener team was ousted in 2005, Richards joined the stacked AHL Phantoms roster, just for their playoff run, and helped them win a Calder Cup, but not as captain.


- 2006 IIHF World Championships -Canada placed 4th with Richards and he wasn't captain

-He played on the Gold medal winning Team Canada in the last Olympics, but not as it's captain


-He was named captain of the Flyers early in the 2008-09 season. He hasn't yet won a championship at this level.

--------------------------------------

Impressive, but let's not make him out to be some superman of a leader who captains every team he's on to ultimate victory.



Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch
You hear Briere say "I'm not ready to go home" one time and he should be captain. One bad playoffs, from the entire team, and Richards is a terrible captain. Did you want him stripped after last season's finals appearance? Sounds like you're just buying what the papers are selling.
I don't think he's a terrible leader. Never said that. I do however think that there are legitimate concerns in his role as captain for the Flyers. He's struggled at times and drawn criticism for it. Sure, some of it may have been based on speculation, but other points of concern are/were valid and factual.

If you read my prior comments, I've brought up many additional factors besides those that you focused on. Go back and read, I'm not going to repost them for you. As far as last year's Finals appearance, I would cite that they almost missed the playoffs altogether, which is pathetic, and I could argue that other players like Briere and Giroux played bigger roles in leading the team to the finals, and in the finals themselves, Richards came up small, just like in this year's series against Boston (though he was injured and apparently had pneumonia).

Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch
And I love the argument of being an educated hockey player, I played the sport yada yada. Yea me too. Doesn't mean me or you knows what's going on in the dressing room, does it? Where's your facts to strip him because he's a terrible leader? Your fandom and "experience" says it's the right move? It's just a baseless argument that you're being fed to by a few journalists. You're entitled to any opinion you want, and I'm entitled talk about how silly it is.
No, I'm not just eating what the journalists are cooking. I cited my background so you know I'm not just some fanboy who doesn't know the game. I have taken lots of things into consideration. Observing his play and how the team has been chronically inconsistent for a few seasons under his tenure as captain is probably at the forefront of how I formed my opinion. While that is certianly not all his fault, he does bear some responsibility as captain. For this and other reasons cited, I don't think it's so outlandish to consider a change. People act as if it would usher in the apocolypse!

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05-26-2011, 10:29 PM
  #63
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So this Richards captain debate typically starts with someone raising concerns about Richards in the C role, followed by a bunch of fans coming out to strongly defend him and berate and insult the person (or persons) who bring it up. I've had extensive discussions on this topic here and elsewhere. In all those discussions, I've found that no one has really been able to adequately answer a few key questions.

1 - What would be the downside risks of moving the C to another player, such as Briere or Pronger?

2- What has Richards done as captain of this Flyer team that shows that he, above all other possible candidates, is the best one for that role?

3- Is Richards just entitled to keep the C forever? Even if more dynamic leaders emerge in the future (perhaps Giroux someday)?

Can anyone chime in on these with objective and thoughtful answers?

Thanks in advance.

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05-26-2011, 10:45 PM
  #64
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so we are really going to go down this road again. Some people just dont get it.

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05-26-2011, 10:48 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
So this Richards captain debate typically starts with someone raising concerns about Richards in the C role, followed by a bunch of fans coming out to strongly defend him and berate and insult the person (or persons) who bring it up. I've had extensive discussions on this topic here and elsewhere. In all those discussions, I've found that no one has really been able to adequately answer a few key questions.

1 - What would be the downside risks of moving the C to another player, such as Briere or Pronger?

2- What has Richards done as captain of this Flyer team that shows that he, above all other possible candidates, is the best one for that role?

3- Is Richards just entitled to keep the C forever? Even if more dynamic leaders emerge in the future (perhaps Giroux someday)?

Can anyone chime in on these with objective and thoughtful answers?

Thanks in advance.
1) has already been addressed by a couple people here in this very thread, and in others. I guess you're just ignoring those posts. There's also the fact that all those players who were captains elsewhere unanimously support and praise Richards as captain, and everyone who has played with him or coached him in the past praises him and his leadership.

2) Historic playoff run to the Finals last season and an ECF to boot?

3) That's up to Richards and management. We can't judge that, and that's not something I'm comfortable speculating about myself. From the outside looking in, Giroux certainly seems like leadership material, but that doesn't mean he's any more qualified than Richards.


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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
so we are really going to go down this road again. Some people just dont get it.

It's sort of like instinct at this point. I see the same posts (albeit by different posters) over and over, and just give the same answers.

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05-26-2011, 10:52 PM
  #66
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so we are really going to go down this road again. Some people just dont get it.
Fauxplex has brough it up in multiple threads, Richiesfan.

His captaincy, much like many other things to do with this team, is completely out of our control. I know that could apply to many things, but really, unless he's stripped of the captaincy or is causing issues far beyond what he is now...whats the point?


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05-26-2011, 10:57 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
So this Richards captain debate typically starts with someone raising concerns about Richards in the C role, followed by a bunch of fans coming out to strongly defend him and berate and insult the person (or persons) who bring it up. I've had extensive discussions on this topic here and elsewhere. In all those discussions, I've found that no one has really been able to adequately answer a few key questions.

1 - What would be the downside risks of moving the C to another player, such as Briere or Pronger?

2- What has Richards done as captain of this Flyer team that shows that he, above all other possible candidates, is the best one for that role?

3- Is Richards just entitled to keep the C forever? Even if more dynamic leaders emerge in the future (perhaps Giroux someday)?

Can anyone chime in on these with objective and thoughtful answers?

Thanks in advance.

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05-26-2011, 11:05 PM
  #68
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I hear this line used a lot, but I think it's a bit misleading. He had times where he wasn't captain, or where teams he's captained came up short. Let's take a closer look.

-In Junior, he wasn't appointed Captain until after the loaded Kitchener Rangers won the CHL championship in 2003. Interestingly, after being appointed captain, his Ranger team did not win another championship those next two seasons.

-Richards was on Team Canada at the World Jrs., and lost in 2004. Richards was Captain in 2005, when Team Canada's stacked 2005 team won Gold (Carter was an all-star, as the year before, Richards, no so much)


-After his Kitchener team was ousted in 2005, Richards joined the stacked AHL Phantoms roster, just for their playoff run, and helped them win a Calder Cup, but not as captain.


- 2006 IIHF World Championships -Canada placed 4th with Richards and he wasn't captain

-He played on the Gold medal winning Team Canada in the last Olympics, but not as it's captain


-He was named captain of the Flyers early in the 2008-09 season. He hasn't yet won a championship at this level.

--------------------------------------

Impressive, but let's not make him out to be some superman of a leader who captains every team he's on to ultimate victory.
You throw around "stacked" as a detractor for his success. Haven't the Sharks been stacked the past few years? Weren't the Red Wings stacked in '09? Wasn't the '06 Olympic Roster pretty stacked? And the Flyers almost missed the playoffs last year because they had the worst coach in the league. They were 14th in the conference at one point in the year.

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I don't think he's a terrible leader. Never said that. I do however think that there are legitimate concerns in his role as captain for the Flyers. He's struggled at times and drawn criticism for it. Sure, some of it may have been based on speculation, but other points of concern are/were valid and factual.

If you read my prior comments, I've brought up many additional factors besides those that you focused on. Go back and read, I'm not going to repost them for you. As far as last year's Finals appearance, I would cite that they almost missed the playoffs altogether, which is pathetic, and I could argue that other players like Briere and Giroux played bigger roles in leading the team to the finals, and in the finals themselves, Richards came up small, just like in this year's series against Boston (though he was injured and apparently had pneumonia).
What factual points of concern do you have, other than the team's penchant for not playing 60 minutes (which they've done for longer than Richards has been a captain) and what you see as abandoning the team by leaving town (or as others call it, "going home for the summer")? And Briere and Giroux played bigger roles in leading the team to the Finals? So I guess Richards' 23 points and stellar defense, not to mention his series-changing check on Krejci in the Boston series, are worth less than Giroux's 21 points against less than elite competition? And Richards' QUALCOMP of 0.203 (1st on the team, Briere is 7th among forwards) and QUALTEAM of -0.106 (less than Giroux, Carter, JVR, Briere (2nd among forwards), Leino, and Carter) show his lesser value than Briere and his 30 points.

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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
No, I'm not just eating what the journalists are cooking. I cited my background so you know I'm not just some fanboy who doesn't know the game. I have taken lots of things into consideration. Observing his play and how the team has been chronically inconsistent for a few seasons under his tenure as captain is probably at the forefront of how I formed my opinion. While that is certianly not all his fault, he does bear some responsibility as captain. For this and other reasons cited, I don't think it's so outlandish to consider a change. People act as if it would usher in the apocolypse!
If you aren't just eating what the journalists are cooking, where were these complaints last year?

This team was chronically inconsistent under John Stevens. When Stevens was fired and the team got up to Lavi's level of conditioning, they were consistently one of the best teams in the league. To begin this year, up until mid-January, this team was consistently one of the best teams in the league. At that point, they couldn't keep up with the loss of a Norris-caliber defenseman, injuries, and goalie controversy.

People act like it's a terrible idea because it IS a terrible idea. You're not talking about a one year change here; Richards will likely never be the captain again if you strip the C from him. What do you think, they're just going to say, "Oh, we didn't believe in you before, but here you go, lead us to the Cup! Btw, at the next sign of weakness, you won't be captain," like it's no big deal or something? Captains don't get stripped of the captaincy only to be renamed captain a few years either.

Teams can win without veteran captains. In the past three years, 2 of the Stanley Cup-winning captains were under 22. I'll say it one more time: Richards isn't the problem.

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05-26-2011, 11:07 PM
  #69
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At what point is it easier to just nod our heads and say "yes. Richie is bad?"

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05-26-2011, 11:08 PM
  #70
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I agree completely Downie.
But I got the feeling we are going to be beating this horse for quite some time. too much cluelessness out there

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05-26-2011, 11:14 PM
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I'm a fan fliers from Russia. Because the team used the ideas Tarasova, and there are Russian players. And I'm disgusting that they are losing.

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05-26-2011, 11:16 PM
  #72
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So this Richards captain debate typically starts with someone raising concerns about Richards in the C role, followed by a bunch of fans coming out to strongly defend him and berate and insult the person (or persons) who bring it up. I've had extensive discussions on this topic here and elsewhere. In all those discussions, I've found that no one has really been able to adequately answer a few key questions.

1 - What would be the downside risks of moving the C to another player, such as Briere or Pronger?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Downie View Post
Who would become captain? Briere? Diver (and don't tell me he doesn't have that reputation, other fans will tell you that), doesn't contribute on defense, disappears when he's not scoring, probably has 2 or 3 years left. What do you do after that?

Pronger? What changes with him as captain? Chris Pronger is not the kind of player who changes his approach to the game whether he has the A or the C.

Kimmo? Breaking down, probably retires after his current contract, if not next year. What do you do after that?

Carter? That might be funny just to see his detractors' heads explode.
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Originally Posted by Ghost of Downie View Post
This. Downsides:

You are saying that you don't have confidence in him.
You are creating controversy in the locker room.
You run into the same problem a few years down the line when you're next captain retires.
You create even more pressure on the next captain.
You create a media circus.

What else do you want? Stripping Richards of the captaincy is not the answer to our problems.
How are these answers not adequate?

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2- What has Richards done as captain of this Flyer team that shows that he, above all other possible candidates, is the best one for that role?
Stanley Cup Finals, Eastern Conference Finals, 3-0 Comeback, all-star, the repeated expression of confidence from EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS TEAMMATES! What has Briere done as a player on this Flyers team that shows him to be the best for the role? And what makes you think Pronger does anything differently as captain?

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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
3- Is Richards just entitled to keep the C forever? Even if more dynamic leaders emerge in the future (perhaps Giroux someday)?

Can anyone chime in on these with objective and thoughtful answers?

Thanks in advance.
Richards is entitled to keep the C until the evidence against him becomes irrefutable, not just the media rumor mongering of the past few weeks. He's entitled to keep the C as long as his team wins consistently. And he's entitled to keep the C as long as his teammates continue supporting them.


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05-26-2011, 11:19 PM
  #73
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I agree completely Downie.
But I got the feeling we are going to be beating this horse for quite some time. too much cluelessness out there
To quote Shafer, "I'll call out pretty much anything that doesn't make any sense."

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05-26-2011, 11:34 PM
  #74
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I'm a fan fliers from Russia. Because the team used the ideas Tarasova, and there are Russian players. And I'm disgusting that they are losing.
I agree

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05-26-2011, 11:56 PM
  #75
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How are these answers not adequate?



Stanley Cup Finals, Eastern Conference Finals, 3-0 Comeback, all-star, the repeated expression of confidence from EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS TEAMMATES!
How did Richards play in the Cup finals?

What are his teammates going to say to the press when asked? You know and I know that they're not going to say anything bad, even if they do have some concerns. You hardly ever hear of any player throw a teammate, let alone a captain under the bus. It's just not done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostofDownie
What has Briere done as a player on this Flyers team that shows him to be the best for the role?
Briere rallied the team to victory with a never say die speech in Game 6 against Buffalo this season. He made similar statements and had a similar undying spirit in last season's run as he led all scorers and keyed the team to victory. He leads all Flyers in playoff scoring, including several game winning goals. He conducts himself with class and sets a good example off the ice with his charity work. He also sets a good example with his rigorous off season training regimen. He's conducted himself with confidence and grace and has a good rapport with the press/media, acting as a fine representative of the organization. He's not a quiet/shy type and has the full command and respect of everyone in the room and he's not afraid to speak up.

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Originally Posted by GhostofDownie
And what makes you think Pronger does anything differently as captain?
Pronger wouldn't be my first choice. He's more volatile and brash. But he would more than likely hold players more accountable for their play than Richie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostofDownie
Richards is entitled to keep the C until the evidence against him becomes irrefutable, not just the media rumor mongering of the past few weeks. He's entitled to keep the C as long as his team wins consistently. And he's entitled to keep the C as long as his teammates continue supporting them.
I think there's enough substance to have some concerns, such as coming up small in the finals last season, and against Boston this season, inconsistent efforts on the ice during the past couple of seasons, trying to be too cute or do too much with the puck, not playing with fire like he used to, being quiet/introverted amongst a veteran team with lots of egos, complaining about the lines/pp shuffling (undermining the coach) in public statements, whining about the refs in public, showing up later than most for training camp, in less than great shape, with a notion that he'll just "work himself" into shape...taking practices/optional skates off, confrontations with the press, irresponsible use of online media, pictures with pornstars and drinking with young girls. So, yeah, he hasn't exactly done a particualrly great job with various aspects of the role of captain.

Look, I know this sounds like I'm just coming down real hard on Richards, but I actually do think he's a very good player, who can help this team win a Cup someday. By no means would I want to see him traded. I just think if you look at it objectively, consider all the things I've mentioned, there are other candidates on this team that could very well be more suitable in the role of captain. I don't think this is nearly as unreasonable an idea as many on this thread seem to think and those who share my view don't deserve to be ridiculed.

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