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Flyers sign Finnish goaltender Niko Hovinen to ELC

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05-26-2011, 07:15 PM
  #301
Terence Peterman
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Is it possible, nay likely, that many of these goalies we consider "great" or even "very good" are actually just "average" or "above average" playing behind teams and systems that cushion their play?
Yes. But, for the millionth time, those goalies' track records indicate a distinct "no." Perhaps the most apparent example is Luongo's stint in Florida. But if that's too inconvenient to consider, I get it. Don't worry.

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05-26-2011, 07:22 PM
  #302
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
Yes. But, for the millionth time, those goalies' track records indicate a distinct "no." Perhaps the most apparent example is Luongo's stint in Florida. But if that's too inconvenient to consider, I get it. Don't worry.
That, and there's always the eye ball test. If you showed me (or anyone with some idea of what makes a good goalie, i.e. most of us) all those goalies and a bunch of league average goalies, we could most likely separate them into two groups fairly easily and consistently. Their abilities are plainly visible, before we even bring statistics into it.

You can see it with your eyes when a goalie is insulated versus when a goalie is simply that good.

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05-26-2011, 08:37 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You're still putting words in my mouth.
No I'm not, Chris. If you're not quick enough to realize that you've been trying to argue that teams make goalies for years around here... that's on you. Same reason you were defending Holmgren during the whole Leighton fiasco a season ago. Cuz goalies don't really matter, skaters do.

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Is it possible, nay likely, that many of these goalies we consider "great" or even "very good" are actually just "average" or "above average" playing behind teams and systems that cushion their play?

I agree that there are certainly some elite/spectacular/cut above the rest goalies in the NHL. I however believe that, unless you are 100% positive about who they are, you need to be careful about who you're throwing into that category.
Is it possible, Chris? Sure. Go find some *ing examples. I just provided a bunch. If you want to debate how good Tim Thomas or Vokoun is, *ing go for it brutha. I also just provided a bunch of examples of a DIRECT relationship between the guys that we would label "elite" and their teams finishing at the top of the SVPCT ladder. Importantly, some of those teams aren't even all that friggin good.

However throwing out an abstract hypothetical without backing it up... I mean, that's your MO.

It's no one else's job to go look up support for the **** you want to believe. You're a wannabe professional writer, good professional writers do research.

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Spare me the sob story.

Every idiot and their mother throws that out their instead of using their head.

We need a legitimate starter, but this crap about finding the Flyers their first goalie in two decades makes me want to puke.

I blame the media for spinning this tale into the overly dramatic by preying off of half-truths.
Dude, we have 30 plus years of VERY good Flyers teams not winning the Cup. It isn't like the Flyers haven't exactly had "teams" capable of winning it. More than a few times, the one thing that has held teams back has been between the pipes.

Blame the media all you want, it doesn't make it any less friggin true. The one time the Flyers looked like they had a guy that was going to really nail down the tag of franchise goalie he died. Hextall was a flash in the pan... good but never really that elite, more notable for his antics than his actual goaltending.

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05-26-2011, 08:41 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
That, and there's always the eye ball test. If you showed me (or anyone with some idea of what makes a good goalie, i.e. most of us) all those goalies and a bunch of league average goalies, we could most likely separate them into two groups fairly easily and consistently. Their abilities are plainly visible, before we even bring statistics into it.

You can see it with your eyes when a goalie is insulated versus when a goalie is simply that good.
Yep, and then you got someone like Cechmanek, who put up fantastic numbers here but always came unraveled in the playoffs. Not entirely fair, but there was some truth to it. The problem with Cechmanek became apparent not through the stats per se, but through watching him and understanding what was happening. The guy was unorthodox to the point that during the regular season he caused teams fits. In the playoffs, they got the scouting report on him and started to hold the puck more and work wide around him which would get him way out of position and lead to easy goals.

C'est la vie. Didn't help that he was a bit bat guano.

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05-27-2011, 11:18 PM
  #305
GKJ
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Well, one thing we learned this week is that you CAN give your goaltender a big cap number without the team in front of him being complete crap and falling short of getting a chance to win the Cup.

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