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Old
05-29-2011, 12:14 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Petrov View Post
This chart is for 2009-10 offer sheets. These amounts have since increased as Average League Salary has increased.
I knew the amount of salary for each category has changed a bit, but I wasn't sure if that was the most recent chart. It's only about ~200k off, though.

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05-29-2011, 12:51 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
I think most of the GMs understood it for a while, if you try to steal, get ready to be eventually stolen too.. its only a stupid way to inflate salaries.. Bobby Clarke tryied to steal a player I dont remember who some years ago, he has been fired the same year.. Lowe did it with Penner, lol we know the rest of the story, thats a move he has been ridiculized for..
That doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't inflate salaries. It can't because there is a salary cap for every team. Why do people say that ?

EDIT:

Just to explain this further.

If the salary cap was 10M per team. And there were 30 teams and they all spent to the max. Then the amount of salary awarded in a year would be max 300M. It wouldn't matter how that 300M is spent. You could overrate all the jeff fingers in the world and award them 4M, but in the end.. there wouldn't be cash left for certain players. All it would end up doing is skewing the real worth of some players, but there would be no inflation.


Last edited by E = CH²: 05-29-2011 at 01:04 PM.
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05-29-2011, 12:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
PK Subban

GMGM is / was an idiot for giving Green a $5m contract as an RFA. I think we have a good team mentality here in Montreal and PK wouldn't ask for $5m in his 2nd contract, nor do I think CP would ask for $5m in his last RFA contract.

But if someone offers PK a $50m contract for the next 10 years, how can he ever turn it down? The reality is, he never should, $50m to his family is everything, its security, whereas getting hurt and concussed and not having a career in 3 years is possible in the new NHL.

seriously, someone can offer PK a big RFA contract and Montreal would have no choice to match it.


thats why offer sheets are bad, because they basically remove the RFA value from developing your own players, every smart GM would offer PK a $9m/yr contract over the next 2 years to steal him. and still own his RFA rights.
If you don't re-sign Subban before he's eligible to be offersheeted, you're a clown. RFA offer sheets are part of the game; A GM who isn't prepared to deal with that shouldn't be a GM.

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05-29-2011, 01:04 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by SolkaTruesilver View Post
You, like me, are filthy. You considered trading the PK. I am filthy, I must wash. Wash away the dirt. Be clean, cleaner. I must wash my hands. And then again. And again. The filth won't go, I must wash again... Hands are bleeding, no matter. Must wash again.
It would be stupid to sign him for more than $7 million and it would be stupid not to take four 1st rounders for him.

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05-29-2011, 01:30 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
If you don't re-sign Subban before he's eligible to be offersheeted, you're a clown. RFA offer sheets are part of the game; A GM who isn't prepared to deal with that shouldn't be a GM.
Just like Philly did with Giroux.

Get Price & Subban over with before the all-star break, PLEASE.

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05-29-2011, 01:46 PM
  #31
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As for the current topic. I'd just like to bring up two points.

Are four 1st round draft picks really worth Subban ?


Would it be :

Tinordi, Leblanc, Fisher and Chipchura.

Or

Price, Pacioretty, Leblanc, McDonagh

?

I think it's not that often that you can land a player like Subban. They say the winner of a trade is the team getting the best player. I subscribe to that theory. I think it holds true more often than not.

Hell, even in the second case. We're getting Price #2 which is great, but goalies have almost no trade value and we already have a good goalie. Would we need the headache that comes with a young wolf nipping at Price's heels. And then we'd still have to wait years to see the first hint of a reward from these picks.

Another point I wanted to make is that clearly Subban isn't worth 7M/per at the moment. But then again, PG has said time and time again that moves are made in consideration of the future. And in that light, is Subban going to be worth 7M/per down the road ? Well, I'd not be surprised if he was. I'm really really high on him. Sky is the limit for him. Not to mention with regular inflation from year to year, and new CBA, in 6-7 years 7M won't be worth the same it is right now. It might end up being a bargain in 5-10 years if the salary cap keeps going up.

Maybe it would be crazy to match that offer. Probably would be. But I'd hate to see the first actual potential superstar skater this team has had in I don't know how long leave for draft picks. Not only that, but one that is thriving in Montreal's pressure cooker environment.

Also, Buffalo matched for Vanek. How does a potential 7M/per offer sheet to PK match up with Vanek's situation in Buffalo back then ?

Also as a fan he's plain fun to watch. I wouldn't get the same enjoyment from an equivalent 4 player package. Hell, not sure Pacioretty, McDo, Leblanc and Price will provide the same excitement PK does. But I understand this has no bearing on actual decisions.

Either way. It seems so cut and dry for everyone. Just wanted to play devil's advocate a little.

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Old
05-29-2011, 02:54 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
That doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't inflate salaries. It can't because there is a salary cap for every team. Why do people say that ?

EDIT:

Just to explain this further.

If the salary cap was 10M per team. And there were 30 teams and they all spent to the max. Then the amount of salary awarded in a year would be max 300M. It wouldn't matter how that 300M is spent. You could overrate all the jeff fingers in the world and award them 4M, but in the end.. there wouldn't be cash left for certain players. All it would end up doing is skewing the real worth of some players, but there would be no inflation.
Well you are right the cap is there to prevent the inflation but what I mean is that the best players would get an even larger part of the pie while you will see alot of good bottom lines players avalaible for peanuts.. what we already see but if the Gms started a war regarding offer sheets it would get even worst..

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05-29-2011, 03:00 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
As for the current topic. I'd just like to bring up two points.

Are four 1st round draft picks really worth Subban ?


Would it be :

Tinordi, Leblanc, Fisher and Chipchura.

Or

Price, Pacioretty, Leblanc, McDonagh

?

I think it's not that often that you can land a player like Subban. They say the winner of a trade is the team getting the best player. I subscribe to that theory. I think it holds true more often than not.

Hell, even in the second case. We're getting Price #2 which is great, but goalies have almost no trade value and we already have a good goalie. Would we need the headache that comes with a young wolf nipping at Price's heels. And then we'd still have to wait years to see the first hint of a reward from these picks.

Another point I wanted to make is that clearly Subban isn't worth 7M/per at the moment. But then again, PG has said time and time again that moves are made in consideration of the future. And in that light, is Subban going to be worth 7M/per down the road ? Well, I'd not be surprised if he was. I'm really really high on him. Sky is the limit for him. Not to mention with regular inflation from year to year, and new CBA, in 6-7 years 7M won't be worth the same it is right now. It might end up being a bargain in 5-10 years if the salary cap keeps going up.

Maybe it would be crazy to match that offer. Probably would be. But I'd hate to see the first actual potential superstar skater this team has had in I don't know how long leave for draft picks. Not only that, but one that is thriving in Montreal's pressure cooker environment.

Also, Buffalo matched for Vanek. How does a potential 7M/per offer sheet to PK match up with Vanek's situation in Buffalo back then ?

Also as a fan he's plain fun to watch. I wouldn't get the same enjoyment from an equivalent 4 player package. Hell, not sure Pacioretty, McDo, Leblanc and Price will provide the same excitement PK does. But I understand this has no bearing on actual decisions.

Either way. It seems so cut and dry for everyone. Just wanted to play devil's advocate a little.
Yes you have another good point and thats the main reason why GMs dont take the offer sheets way when we all know how important are the draft picks in the new reality of the market..

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Old
05-29-2011, 03:54 PM
  #34
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I'm sure this already been said 32 times, but there's a salary cap, if you give less money to RFAs, UFAs will get more. So there's no difference.

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05-29-2011, 04:10 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
?????? I fel like I missed a bunch of things... Can you translate this please? Who the hell is GMGM...what Green are you talking about, and who is CP?

then the next poster comments on all of the offer sheets being thrown around.....who has signed an offer sheet lately?
you need more han 41 posts to understand this. the poster is not at fault because you are new around here.

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05-29-2011, 05:53 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by not quite yoda View Post
you need more han 41 posts to understand this. the poster is not at fault because you are new around here.
I had 1000 + and i didn't understand IMO or IMHO.

People should just type the word . They have time to spend obviously because the are on HF i doubt typing the entire word will change the OP's life

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Old
05-29-2011, 06:10 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Richiebottles View Post
I had 1000 + and i didn't understand IMO or IMHO.

People should just type the word . They have time to spend obviously because the are on HF i doubt typing the entire word will change the OP's life
lol, get over it. I had no issue with the post and understood every word of it.. not rocket science, it's an internet forum.. not a university paper.

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Old
05-29-2011, 08:30 PM
  #38
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The $9m was a bit of a bad exageration. Thinking about it a bit more, if I was a GM, I'd do my best to screw over the 29 other GM's.

Lets use PK again. He's young enough that you could offer him a 2 yr $12m contract. Thats $6m per. This would almost guarantee the Habs match it and basically screw them over for the cap.

Then basically make all of these type of offers, that are all slightly overpaid but not too high that the team won't match

Weber $8m x 5 yrs
Stamkos $9.5m x 6 yrs
Doughty $6.25m x 5 yrs
Parise $6.75m x 4 yrs


Basically offer every RFA on the market that isn't reupped a new contract that is $1.5-2m over their value so that the team pretty much is forced to sign that contract. You basically giving every team a $2m cap hit.

Then what you do, is make sure you resign your RFA's before the deadline. Who cares if you piss off 29 GM's. As long as you treat your young players great and with respect, they'll be loyal to the organization and resign with you well ahead of time anyways.

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05-29-2011, 08:34 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
As for the current topic. I'd just like to bring up two points.

Are four 1st round draft picks really worth Subban ?


Would it be :

Tinordi, Leblanc, Fisher and Chipchura.

Or

Price, Pacioretty, Leblanc, McDonagh

?

I think it's not that often that you can land a player like Subban. They say the winner of a trade is the team getting the best player. I subscribe to that theory. I think it holds true more often than not.

Hell, even in the second case. We're getting Price #2 which is great, but goalies have almost no trade value and we already have a good goalie. Would we need the headache that comes with a young wolf nipping at Price's heels. And then we'd still have to wait years to see the first hint of a reward from these picks.

Another point I wanted to make is that clearly Subban isn't worth 7M/per at the moment. But then again, PG has said time and time again that moves are made in consideration of the future. And in that light, is Subban going to be worth 7M/per down the road ? Well, I'd not be surprised if he was. I'm really really high on him. Sky is the limit for him. Not to mention with regular inflation from year to year, and new CBA, in 6-7 years 7M won't be worth the same it is right now. It might end up being a bargain in 5-10 years if the salary cap keeps going up.

Maybe it would be crazy to match that offer. Probably would be. But I'd hate to see the first actual potential superstar skater this team has had in I don't know how long leave for draft picks. Not only that, but one that is thriving in Montreal's pressure cooker environment.

Also, Buffalo matched for Vanek. How does a potential 7M/per offer sheet to PK match up with Vanek's situation in Buffalo back then ?

Also as a fan he's plain fun to watch. I wouldn't get the same enjoyment from an equivalent 4 player package. Hell, not sure Pacioretty, McDo, Leblanc and Price will provide the same excitement PK does. But I understand this has no bearing on actual decisions.

Either way. It seems so cut and dry for everyone. Just wanted to play devil's advocate a little.
Pacioretty wasn't our pick, we traded for San Jose's pick, thus it would not be included.

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Old
05-29-2011, 08:37 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Not the NHL, but the team offering the offer sheet.
plus, any team that has cap space to drop 9 million a year is probably garbage so the first 1 or 2 picks have a strong likelihood of being very high.

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05-29-2011, 09:49 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
As for the current topic. I'd just like to bring up two points.

Are four 1st round draft picks really worth Subban ?


Would it be :

Tinordi, Leblanc, Fisher and Chipchura.

Or

Price, Pacioretty, Leblanc, McDonagh

?

I think it's not that often that you can land a player like Subban. They say the winner of a trade is the team getting the best player. I subscribe to that theory. I think it holds true more often than not.

Hell, even in the second case. We're getting Price #2 which is great, but goalies have almost no trade value and we already have a good goalie. Would we need the headache that comes with a young wolf nipping at Price's heels. And then we'd still have to wait years to see the first hint of a reward from these picks.

Another point I wanted to make is that clearly Subban isn't worth 7M/per at the moment. But then again, PG has said time and time again that moves are made in consideration of the future. And in that light, is Subban going to be worth 7M/per down the road ? Well, I'd not be surprised if he was. I'm really really high on him. Sky is the limit for him. Not to mention with regular inflation from year to year, and new CBA, in 6-7 years 7M won't be worth the same it is right now. It might end up being a bargain in 5-10 years if the salary cap keeps going up.

Maybe it would be crazy to match that offer. Probably would be. But I'd hate to see the first actual potential superstar skater this team has had in I don't know how long leave for draft picks. Not only that, but one that is thriving in Montreal's pressure cooker environment.

Also, Buffalo matched for Vanek. How does a potential 7M/per offer sheet to PK match up with Vanek's situation in Buffalo back then ?

Also as a fan he's plain fun to watch. I wouldn't get the same enjoyment from an equivalent 4 player package. Hell, not sure Pacioretty, McDo, Leblanc and Price will provide the same excitement PK does. But I understand this has no bearing on actual decisions.

Either way. It seems so cut and dry for everyone. Just wanted to play devil's advocate a little.
I propose one situation where a team would be very smart to offer sheet one or 2 very solid RFA players:

1. The team is wealthy and has the cap space.
2. The team is facing a 3 year cup window, with other young stars still there, but perhaps reaching UFA status in 2-3 years.
3. The team has only one or 2 holes to fill, and doesn't have the AHL depth to fill them in the next 2-3 years.
4. The team does not have the depth in the system to trade for the one or two players they need.
5. The RFA players in question will outperform aging and overpriced UFA players, if they are available at all, and can remain on the core of the team for 3-5 years.
6. Most importantly, the team consistently wins so that it never has 1st round picks higher than 15th. The loss of a couple of low first round picks would therefore very likely be easily countered by having a very good and proven RFA or 2 for 3-5 years.

HMMM. Now which team meets all of those criteria?

The Habs.

That indeed looks a lot like the Habs, summer 2012. Therefore, If I was PG, I would offer sheet one or two players next summer.

What the hell, it's our window. He should at the very least consider the option, as it is available to him. He would be negligent not to.

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Old
05-29-2011, 10:07 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
The $9m was a bit of a bad exageration. Thinking about it a bit more, if I was a GM, I'd do my best to screw over the 29 other GM's.

Lets use PK again. He's young enough that you could offer him a 2 yr $12m contract. Thats $6m per. This would almost guarantee the Habs match it and basically screw them over for the cap.

Then basically make all of these type of offers, that are all slightly overpaid but not too high that the team won't match

Weber $8m x 5 yrs
Stamkos $9.5m x 6 yrs
Doughty $6.25m x 5 yrs
Parise $6.75m x 4 yrs


Basically offer every RFA on the market that isn't reupped a new contract that is $1.5-2m over their value so that the team pretty much is forced to sign that contract. You basically giving every team a $2m cap hit.

Then what you do, is make sure you resign your RFA's before the deadline. Who cares if you piss off 29 GM's. As long as you treat your young players great and with respect, they'll be loyal to the organization and resign with you well ahead of time anyways.
Not only that, but the NHLPA and its players will love u. So perhaps the loyalty u speak of will only be further cemented.

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Old
05-30-2011, 01:16 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Offersheets are part of the game, and if there's some crazy GM willing to give up multiple top picks in order to sign one of our RFA to a big contract, then go for it.
I would have no problem trading away PK for four first round picks, especially if it's on a somewhat bad team.
I'd have a huge problem with it, seeing how bad we are at drafting in the 1st round... and how much we need the #1 dman Subban will become very soon

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05-30-2011, 01:39 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Thinking about it a bit more, if I was a GM, I'd do my best to screw over the 29 other GM's.
No, you probably wouldn't. If you were actually a GM, you'd realize that, despite being in charge of competing groups, there is such a large degree of cooperation required outside of what goes on between game whistles to make the league run smoothly, that "needlessly" creating animosity by "screwing people over", would likely end up working against you in the long run; probably even more so than you would stand to benefit from such a maneuver.

You're human, just like them, and you would take the necessary steps to make your job/life easier on you, not harder. And life tends to make things harder for those who exhibit patterns of disruptive behaviour.

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05-30-2011, 08:29 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Richiebottles View Post
I had 1000 + and i didn't understand IMO or IMHO.

People should just type the word . They have time to spend obviously because the are on HF i doubt typing the entire word will change the OP's life
I don't entirely disagree but it's like if you went to China and expected people to speak to you in English.

This is the internet, a forum no less, acronyms are used here. You can't expect the majority who all know and use them to change when you could simply do something a lot easier and learn an acronym or two.

I'll admit some people go too far and it's every other word. Sometimes even acronyms they themselves have made up. But you can't expect the posters to change for you. It's the type of thing you just need to learn about/get used to when being a part of an online community like this.

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05-30-2011, 09:30 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I don't entirely disagree but it's like if you went to China and expected people to speak to you in English.

This is the internet, a forum no less, acronyms are used here. You can't expect the majority who all know and use them to change when you could simply do something a lot easier and learn an acronym or two.

I'll admit some people go too far and it's every other word. Sometimes even acronyms they themselves have made up. But you can't expect the posters to change for you. It's the type of thing you just need to learn about/get used to when being a part of an online community like this.
I agree with you. Now GTFO.

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05-30-2011, 11:07 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
As for the current topic. I'd just like to bring up two points.

Are four 1st round draft picks really worth Subban ?


Would it be :

Tinordi, Leblanc, Fisher and Chipchura.

Or

Price, Pacioretty, Leblanc, McDonagh

?

I think it's not that often that you can land a player like Subban. They say the winner of a trade is the team getting the best player. I subscribe to that theory. I think it holds true more often than not.

Hell, even in the second case. We're getting Price #2 which is great, but goalies have almost no trade value and we already have a good goalie. Would we need the headache that comes with a young wolf nipping at Price's heels. And then we'd still have to wait years to see the first hint of a reward from these picks.

Another point I wanted to make is that clearly Subban isn't worth 7M/per at the moment. But then again, PG has said time and time again that moves are made in consideration of the future. And in that light, is Subban going to be worth 7M/per down the road ? Well, I'd not be surprised if he was. I'm really really high on him. Sky is the limit for him. Not to mention with regular inflation from year to year, and new CBA, in 6-7 years 7M won't be worth the same it is right now. It might end up being a bargain in 5-10 years if the salary cap keeps going up.

Maybe it would be crazy to match that offer. Probably would be. But I'd hate to see the first actual potential superstar skater this team has had in I don't know how long leave for draft picks. Not only that, but one that is thriving in Montreal's pressure cooker environment.

Also, Buffalo matched for Vanek. How does a potential 7M/per offer sheet to PK match up with Vanek's situation in Buffalo back then ?

Also as a fan he's plain fun to watch. I wouldn't get the same enjoyment from an equivalent 4 player package. Hell, not sure Pacioretty, McDo, Leblanc and Price will provide the same excitement PK does. But I understand this has no bearing on actual decisions.

Either way. It seems so cut and dry for everyone. Just wanted to play devil's advocate a little.
How did that Vanek matching turn out for Buffalo? He's a great scorer, but not a point per game player. Has lead them nowhere. It certainly hasn't hurt them but would they have benefited from the picks instead? He signed his deal in 07, so with the first 4 rounders of Edmonton, they could have had Eberle, Pajaarvi, Hall and this year's 1st overall pick again.
Boston made a deal with Toronto where they exchanged Kessel for the exact same compensation him signing to an offersheet would have provided. I'm pretty sure Toronto would take that deal back.

Now, these are perfect scenarios of great compensation returns. There's no way of really know just how high or low you'd pick and if the selections would be great either.
But with 4 first rounders, I wouldn't be worries so much. I also think that a team who would offer as much to such a young player is probably not being run by the smartest GM in the business, and so, chances of high picks would be good imo.


Not quite sure I understand your Price comment though. First off, you put PK ahead of him, not sure I agree. Second, we already have Price, so we wouldn't have to bring in another goalie seeing as we get picks, not prospects. No need to pick a goalie if we already have one.

As for PK being worth 7M in the future. I have no idea what will happen, but I'm against any deal that goes above 6years. Ideally, you lock up your great players for 4-5 years. Seven seasons+ are retarded deals imo. No matter how good a player is, you can never predict the future. Maybe he becomes injury prone (Dipietro), maybe he just ends up sucking (Gomez), maybe he simply wants out, maybe you want him out, etc..You simply never know.

In any event, PK won't be going anywhere nor will he receive an offersheet. I would be incredibly surprised if that happened.

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Old
05-30-2011, 12:24 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
How did that Vanek matching turn out for Buffalo? He's a great scorer, but not a point per game player. Has lead them nowhere. It certainly hasn't hurt them but would they have benefited from the picks instead? He signed his deal in 07, so with the first 4 rounders of Edmonton, they could have had Eberle, Pajaarvi, Hall and this year's 1st overall pick again.
Boston made a deal with Toronto where they exchanged Kessel for the exact same compensation him signing to an offersheet would have provided. I'm pretty sure Toronto would take that deal back.
That's why I was asking people's thoughts on the Vanek situation. I wasn't really bringing it up as an example. I'm not sure if I have a well educated opinion on that one. Just brought up a precedent and wanted people's opinion about it.

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Now, these are perfect scenarios of great compensation returns. There's no way of really know just how high or low you'd pick and if the selections would be great either.
But with 4 first rounders, I wouldn't be worries so much. I also think that a team who would offer as much to such a young player is probably not being run by the smartest GM in the business, and so, chances of high picks would be good imo.
Fair point.

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Not quite sure I understand your Price comment though. First off, you put PK ahead of him, not sure I agree. Second, we already have Price, so we wouldn't have to bring in another goalie seeing as we get picks, not prospects. No need to pick a goalie if we already have one.
I don't like to compare goalies and skaters. I find they're in two different categories. Especially since goalies are abundant for the number of #1 spots there are. There are quite a few goalies on Price's level. There's about 10-15 goalies who can have a year like the year Price had last year. They're not that rare. Young dmen of Subban's quality are rarer IMO. I think I'd take Subban before I'd take Price if I was building a team from scratch. I'd take skaters first.

About your point about us not being forced to pick a goalie.. it doesn't always work like that. Sometimes that's the best player available. Sometimes the choice is between a skater you're not sure about and a goalie you really believe in. Habs picked Price when they had Theodore and everyone questioned the need to draft a goalie considering we had Theodore (well not me, I questioned the pick for another reason).

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As for PK being worth 7M in the future. I have no idea what will happen, but I'm against any deal that goes above 6years. Ideally, you lock up your great players for 4-5 years. Seven seasons+ are retarded deals imo. No matter how good a player is, you can never predict the future. Maybe he becomes injury prone (Dipietro), maybe he just ends up sucking (Gomez), maybe he simply wants out, maybe you want him out, etc..You simply never know.
I'm on the fence about this. It's hard to ice a great team without taking some risks though.

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In any event, PK won't be going anywhere nor will he receive an offersheet. I would be incredibly surprised if that happened.
Agreed.

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05-30-2011, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
If you don't re-sign Subban before he's eligible to be offersheeted, you're a clown. RFA offer sheets are part of the game; A GM who isn't prepared to deal with that shouldn't be a GM.
you can offer a contract to an RFA early, that deosn't mean he signs that early. If I'm an RFA or their agent I'd wait until after the season to sign if I believe I could get more then.

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05-30-2011, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Richiebottles View Post
I had 1000 + and i didn't understand IMO or IMHO.

People should just type the word . They have time to spend obviously because the are on HF i doubt typing the entire word will change the OP's life
whats OP?

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