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Gormley piece: Carle v. Leino?

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Old
05-30-2011, 04:39 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
A declining Pronger and Timonen are better then Matt Carle will ever be defensively.
We have too many forwards that have NTC or NMC in their contracts.
They can't be better if they get injured or can't play. Carle is solid defensively.

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05-30-2011, 04:39 PM
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Strange thing with Leino is that in the playoffs he was officially credited with just one giveaway. Not sure if that's an official stat though.

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05-30-2011, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
They can't be better if they get injured or can't play. Carle is solid defensively.

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05-30-2011, 04:48 PM
  #29
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I agree with the first part, but Wisniewski could be the top FA defensemen on the market, depending on what happens with the Canucks Free agents. Some team is going to overpay for him much like Brian Campbell a few years ago. I could see him getting 4.5 to 5 per year. He's really only worth 4 I think. Adding Wisniewski would take us out of the running for Bryz/Vokoun unless another piece is moved.
That would price us out, I'm of course only going with assumptions as far as Wisniewski, who would be our #5. More offensive production, maybe as erratic though as Carle, I wouldn't give him more than we already pay Carle.

And, it's assumed one of Bryzgalov or Vokoun is signing here, of course. No guarantees.

BSH's chatter about Carle and his superior, elite play at even-strength is irritating too. ES is fine, but for what Carle makes, he gives you nothing on special teams. Others who may be a bit less efficient at ES can make up for it. Carle averaged the 5th most PK time among defensemen, and the 5th most PP P/60 among defensemen. Less than Coburn who only averaged 23 seconds during the regular season.

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05-30-2011, 04:52 PM
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So who will have a conniption when Leino signs somewhere for more than what Versteeg makes.

Ole Kristian Tollefson and a 5th for Leino, asking for 3.5 mil+

1st and a 3rd for Versteeg, making 3.0833

I like Leino, but I still think he is a one trick pony, and he won't ever match those playoff totals again.

We save half a million bucks, and do what we can. I can live with it.

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05-30-2011, 04:52 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
That would price us out, I'm of course only going with assumptions as far as Wisniewski, who would be our #5. More offensive production, maybe as erratic though as Carle, I wouldn't give him more than we already pay Carle.

And, it's assumed one of Bryzgalov or Vokoun is signing here, of course. No guarantees.

BSH's chatter about Carle and his superior, elite play at even-strength is irritating too. ES is fine, but for what Carle makes, he gives you nothing on special teams. Others who may be a bit less efficient at ES can make up for it. Carle averaged the 5th most PK time among defensemen, and the 5th most PP P/60 among defensemen. Less than Coburn who only averaged 23 seconds during the regular season.
Carle didn't have a good year on the PP. But then again the PP sucked for most of the year. He has the ability. And he can play in all situations.

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05-30-2011, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Carle didn't have a good year on the PP. But then again the PP sucked for most of the year. He has the ability. And he can play in all situations.
Yeah, but he was running a whole unit with Pronger out. How much do we want to pay whose best job is outlet passes? Point-hawking is how Jaroslav Modry made a career - something Holmgren eventually fell for since he traded for him, and gave Randy Jones so many chances.

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05-30-2011, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
They can't be better if they get injured or can't play. Carle is solid defensively.
If Pronger and Timonen are in the lineup(which is what I was suggesting) they are miles better then Carle defensively. I dont know what player you were watching if you think Carle is solid defensively.
Must be that +30 which means alot I guess

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05-30-2011, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
Yeah, but he was running a whole unit with Pronger out. How much do we want to pay whose best job is outlet passes? Point-hawking is how Jaroslav Modry made a career - something Holmgren eventually fell for since he traded for him, and gave Randy Jones so many chances.
Well first of all, puck movement from the back end is paramount. You smply can't be a good team without it in today's NHL. But Carle is also a good playmaker, and solid defensively. He's a very good puck moving defensman who's solid in his own end. He's well worth his Cap hit.

Point hawking? I don't know what that is.

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05-30-2011, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
If Pronger and Timonen are in the lineup(which is what I was suggesting) they are miles better then Carle defensively. I dont know what player you were watching if you think Carle is solid defensively.
Must be that +30 which means alot I guess
Pronger and Timonen are better in their own end. I'm watching Carle play. And he is solid defensively. Not great, but solid and more than capable defensively. Did the +30 happen by accident?

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05-30-2011, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Pronger and Timonen are better in their own end. I'm watching Carle play. And he is solid defensively. Not great, but solid and more than capable defensively. Did the +30 happen by accident?
Nope Pronger helped with that.... as you can see in Carle's play when he was out of the lineup. He IS NOT solid, he is more soft than solid.

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05-30-2011, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
Nope Pronger helped with that.... as you can see in Carle's play when he was out of the lineup. He IS NOT solid, he is more soft than solid.
How do you explain then that in the 32 games that Carle played without Pronger, he recorded 20 points and was a +17?

He is solid defensively.

Carle's play in the playoffs, was subpar, as most of the teams was. And that has made him this off season's whipping boy.

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05-30-2011, 05:30 PM
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I'm against trading Carle. The reasons being the following. The Flyers have two 37 year old defenseman who are showing signs of physical decline. One of them , Pronger, just had major back surgery, and it is possible that he could not be ready to start the Season. If you trade Carle, were back in the spot of where they were on 09/10. With a suspect 3rd pair. Timonen and Pronger would also wind up having their minutes extended, which could lead to overuse, wearing them down. And if Carle is traded, and one of the remaining top 4 of Pronger, Timonen, Coburn, and Meszaros would get a significant injury, then what does your D look like?

The area to create cap space from is from the Forwards spot in my opinion. And I wouldn't trade Carter or Richards.
I'd go after a Babchuk/Hejda kind of guy for about $2.25 million. Babchuk is solid defensively and has a booming shot from the point, while Hejda is a good defensive guy who'll be pretty physical. Basically a guy that's a little more defensive than Carle so that he can either pair with Gustafson, who'll need a defensive partner, or Meszaros, who'll then be able to go for his hits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
It doesn't mean we have to have a suspect 3rd pair. With some good coaching and managing, there's no reason that a #5 defender on a contending team has to make more than $2.25M. And that's still a lot.

Carle at that price would be just fine, but he's not. For his defensive shortcomings, it would be ok if he was a 50-point defenseman, like guys such as Ehrhoff or Wisniewski, but he's not. Doesn't help his case that he is a black hole on the power play. This is just too much to bank on his offensive production at even strength.

Trade Carle, probably let Leino walk unless he comes in between $2.3-$2.5. And go hard after Wisniewski, he would be the perfect guy to put in the lineup and take the load off Pronger and Timonen
Wisniewski is going to get a lot more than Carle. Wouldn't be surprised if a desperate team threw $5 million+ at him.

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05-30-2011, 05:34 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
How do you explain then that in the 32 games that Carle played without Pronger, he recorded 20 points and was a +17?

He is solid defensively.

Carle's play in the playoffs, was subpar, as most of the teams was. And that has made him this off season's whipping boy.
Negative. Carle has a great deal of defensive brain farts that cripple the team. While he may have a good +-, thats a product of the team and not him.

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05-30-2011, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Pronger and Timonen are better in their own end. I'm watching Carle play. And he is solid defensively. Not great, but solid and more than capable defensively. Did the +30 happen by accident?
+/- is no way to judge a players defenisve abilities. Danny Briere was 2nd on the team among forwards in +/-. What does that mean? not much, he is below average defensively and that is no secret.

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05-30-2011, 05:35 PM
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I'd go after a Babchuk/Hejda kind of guy for about $2.25 million. Babchuk is solid defensively and has a booming shot from the point, while Hejda is a good defensive guy who'll be pretty physical. Basically a guy that's a little more defensive than Carle so that he can either pair with Gustafson, who'll need a defensive partner, or Meszaros, who'll then be able to go for his hits.


I personally wouldn't be interest in Babchuck. To me the little bit of Cap savings there wouldn't be worth the drop in production.

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05-30-2011, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ghost of Downie View Post
.
Wisniewski is going to get a lot more than Carle. Wouldn't be surprised if a desperate team threw $5 million+ at him.
yeah. see the Rangers for example.

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05-30-2011, 05:37 PM
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+/- is no way to judge a players defenisve abilities. Danny Briere was 2nd on the team among forwards in +/-. What does that mean? not much, he is below average defensively and that is no secret.
+/- is what it is. The only facts I can give you are the numbers. Otherwise were just throwing opinions out there. Carle's +/- certainly doesn't indicate that he's poor defensively. Carle was the most consistent plus player in the NHL last Season.

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05-30-2011, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
How do you explain then that in the 32 games that Carle played without Pronger, he recorded 20 points and was a +17?

He is solid defensively.

Carle's play in the playoffs, was subpar, as most of the teams was. And that has made him this off season's whipping boy.
Playoffs, when the games matter, playing the same team more than one game at a time. Woefully exposed. That matters.

Carle was also replaced on the top-pairing during the season by Timonen-Coburn, and Meszaros started getting more ice time for him. Without Pronger, Carle's role was reduced, and was getting Matt Walker and Danny Syvret.

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05-30-2011, 05:45 PM
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+/- is what it is. The only facts I can give you are the numbers. Otherwise were just throwing opinions out there. Carle's +/- certainly doesn't indicate that he's poor defensively. Carle was the most consistent plus player in the NHL last Season.
Tom Preissing and Marek Malik both led the league amongst defensemen on consecutive years since the lockout. Both are out of the league. League leaders among defensemen for +/- are a collection of elite defensemen, and partners who hid behind their anchor.


Holmgren paid Meszaros MORE to anchor the 3rd pairing because Carle can't do it.

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05-30-2011, 05:50 PM
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I wouldn't shed any tears if Carle was traded for a bag of soccer balls and a broken floorball stick.

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05-30-2011, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
Playoffs, when the games matter, is what matters. Playing the same team more than one game at a time, he was woefully exposed. That matters.

Carle was also replaced on the top-pairing during the season by Timonen-Coburn, and Meszaros started getting more ice time for him. Without Pronger, Carle's role was reduced, and was getting Matt Walker and Danny Syvret.
Carle wasn't exposed in the playoffs. I'll agree that his play was below his normal level, but so was Meszaros and Coburn's play. Carle was on the ice for 12 goals against in the playoffs at ES. I've watched every goal over and over on replay. Carle made a mistake in coverage or a turnover leading to a goal in 2 out of those 12 goals. Otherwise, it was a turnover or a blown coverage by another player, or a weak goal let in by the Goaltending on a routine shot.

Carle average 21:59 of icetime in the regular Season, and 23:24 of icetime in the playoffs. So how much was his role reduced? Why would the Coaching staff put a player who is supposedly weak defensively out with lesser players such as Walker and Syvret? And by the way, Meszaros and Carle were out on the ice together frequently during the playoffs.

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05-30-2011, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
Tom Preissing and Marek Malik both led the league amongst defensemen on consecutive years since the lockout. Both are out of the league. League leaders among defensemen for +/- are a collection of elite defensemen, and partners who hid behind their anchor.


Holmgren paid Meszaros MORE to anchor the 3rd pairing because Carle can't do it.
Holmgren traded for Meszaros because he's a good young defenseman and getting him for a 2nd round pick was a steal. You need to build up some young defense when your two top defenseman are 37. It had nothing to do with Carle "not being able to anchor the 3rd pair". Carle was already established on a top pairing with Pronger. As successful as that pairing is, why would they have looked to break it up?

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05-30-2011, 06:02 PM
  #49
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Negative. Carle has a great deal of defensive brain farts that cripple the team. While he may have a good +-, thats a product of the team and not him.
How can a defenseman on the ice playing over 20 minutes a game, not do things to contribute to his own plus/minus? When he has coverage or has the puck and has to move it, he has to make the play. Playing defense simply doesn't work like that. There's no such thing as being a product of the team and not him. Coaches don't put a player out there for over 20 minutes a game that cripples the team.

Is Meszaros plus/minus a product of the team and not him? How about any of the other players?

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05-30-2011, 06:03 PM
  #50
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+/- is what it is. The only facts I can give you are the numbers. Otherwise were just throwing opinions out there. Carle's +/- certainly doesn't indicate that he's poor defensively. Carle was the most consistent plus player in the NHL last Season.
+/- indicates that you're on for more goals for than you are for goals against... that's it. That, in itself, tells you nothing about a player's defensive abilities. In fact, terrible defensive players can put up extremely high +/- numbers. How? By playing on really good teams and/or being really good offensively.

Carle's +/- stems from the fact that he's been on a good team here in Philly (he was even for his career before he got here), has had an excellent partner in Pronger for a solid chunk of that time, and he creates a good bit of offense at even strength.

Guy isn't very good defensively. Now, he's a lot better than some of the guys we've had back there (Randy Jones), and he's certainly an effective offensive contributor at even strength. He is, however, very weak on puck carriers physically, and makes some baffling decisions at times.

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