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Would you move a forward for quality Dman? (Who?)

View Poll Results: Would you move a forward for quality Dman? (Who?)
*Joe Thornton (NMC) 0 0%
*Patrick Marleau (NMC) 4 5.80%
*Dany Heatley (NMC) 32 46.38%
Joe Pavelski 7 10.14%
Ryane Clowe 0 0%
Logan Couture 1 1.45%
Devin Setoguchi (RFA) 8 11.59%
No - devlop within or go to July 1st 17 24.64%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-30-2011, 06:13 PM
  #26
WTFetus
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
And you won't complain when scoring disappears in the first round of the playoffs? That didn't work so well against Anaheim a couple of years ago.
A bit of an exaggeration there isn't it? The Anaheim series happened because the Sharks only had 2 lines. The Pavelski line failed, and the Thornton line was injured. You can't expect the likes of Grier, Goc, Roenick, Shelley, Lemieux, and Cheechoo to score.
I'm not advocating trading Pavelski, but saying scoring will disappear is a huge exaggeration. They'll still have the first line, the second line, and hopefully Wellwood and the miscellaneous third liner. And even if all of them were injured, having one healthy Pavelski won't do much.

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05-30-2011, 06:16 PM
  #27
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Not to mention you could slot Marleau back to second line center and still have depth in center down three lines. I love Pavelski, but Couture really stole his spotlight this year (and Pavelski even had his best statistical year this season, surprisingly).

Despite saying that, I don't think we should trade any of our forwards and just try our hand at free agency. Heatley would be a good piece to move but that's nearly impossible because of his bloated contract.

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05-30-2011, 06:21 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by 5H4RK5 View Post
If DW was a clever cat as Yzerman and refill that spot through FA or draft then yes. DW is a 50/50 chance of success risk taker when it comes to those things one of the best but is it enough to propel us to the Cup. Let's say we have a similar forward in FA that can be had for less or a prospect that can come up and take a spot then sure if we get a legit dman. I don't know what DW SCup defense would consist of but he still needs to work on that and build a 3rd and 4th line that can score, win faceoffs, and a whole team that can at least look SCary on the PP.
Their PP was fine. Their 5on5 below par. Their PK stunk (at least 50% responsibility of coaching). JT is no longer the offensive threat he was when acquired. There are a load of better offensive centers. Their goaltending was among the worst in the playoffs. They absolutely need to score which means a three line offense. They are not built to shut down other teams and aren't even close to it which means they have to go the other way. The difference between pre-White and post-White was dramatic so that should tell you something. And he was primarily an offensive dman.

Good special teams will get you through 2 rounds of playoffs, but then the calls dry up and the emphasis is on 5on5 play. That improved as soon as the Sharks added mobility to the backend. It dried up when they lost some of that mobility in the playoffs. In previous years, offense has dried up when the opposition can shutdown two lines, so the necessity for a 3 offensive line team is pretty evident.

Before any trades are proposed, figure the need for 3 lines and who is critical to that. Figure who is critical to mobility on the backend. At that point, figure a way to add to it. In terms of what past winners have done, the emphasis is finding that one top 5 skater who moves in without requiring an exit of a top 5 guy who is already in place. Here are the 5: JT, Marleau, Boyle, Couture and Pavs, Heatley and Clowe running for that 5th spot. I wouldn't move any of the 7 names and I would be very circumspect about moving Seto unless they can find speed on the FA market as that has been a pretty dramatic lack for the Sharks offense.

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05-30-2011, 06:30 PM
  #29
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I don't think speed is as big of a factor as some think it is. Speed isn't that important if you have a good puck-moving backend, which hopefully will be addressed in the offseason. What the Sharks need is another forward with size who can control the puck along the boards and create scoring chances, ideal for a puck possession team. First line has Thornton. Second line has Clowe. Third line had Wellwood; while he's adequate for regular season play for depth scoring, he's too small for a physical playoff series. I'd like someone to replace Mitchell on the third line who could bring that physical presence.

The only player close to fitting that description in the organization is Macintyre, but he's injury prone and unproven.

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05-30-2011, 06:34 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Their PP was fine. Their 5on5 below par. Their PK stunk (at least 50% responsibility of coaching). JT is no longer the offensive threat he was when acquired. There are a load of better offensive centers. Their goaltending was among the worst in the playoffs. They absolutely need to score which means a three line offense. They are not built to shut down other teams and aren't even close to it which means they have to go the other way. The difference between pre-White and post-White was dramatic so that should tell you something. And he was primarily an offensive dman.

Good special teams will get you through 2 rounds of playoffs, but then the calls dry up and the emphasis is on 5on5 play. That improved as soon as the Sharks added mobility to the backend. It dried up when they lost some of that mobility in the playoffs. In previous years, offense has dried up when the opposition can shutdown two lines, so the necessity for a 3 offensive line team is pretty evident.

Before any trades are proposed, figure the need for 3 lines and who is critical to that. Figure who is critical to mobility on the backend. At that point, figure a way to add to it. In terms of what past winners have done, the emphasis is finding that one top 5 skater who moves in without requiring an exit of a top 5 guy who is already in place. Here are the 5: JT, Marleau, Boyle, Couture and Pavs, Heatley and Clowe running for that 5th spot. I wouldn't move any of the 7 names and I would be very circumspect about moving Seto unless they can find speed on the FA market as that has been a pretty dramatic lack for the Sharks offense.
GAA went down significantly after acquiring White. From 3.10 to 2.43. It would go down even further with the addition of a more defensively minded Dman.

While I agree with your overall position on this, I think your understating our O situation a little.

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05-30-2011, 06:46 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Chubbs View Post
I don't think speed is as big of a factor as some think it is. Speed isn't that important if you have a good puck-moving backend, which hopefully will be addressed in the offseason. What the Sharks need is another forward with size who can control the puck along the boards and create scoring chances, ideal for a puck possession team. First line has Thornton. Second line has Clowe. Third line had Wellwood; while he's adequate for regular season play for depth scoring, he's too small for a physical playoff series. I'd like someone to replace Mitchell on the third line who could bring that physical presence.

The only player close to fitting that description in the organization is Macintyre, but he's injury prone and unproven.
I completely disagree. Even Detroit, which has been a relatively slow team with a phenomenal blueline, has acquired forwards with some speed to start their chip and chase game. Cleary and Bertuzzi are their primary forecheckers and Bertuzzi's off-season was spent losing weight and gaining speed so he could be that first guy. When the ice seems tilted against the Sharks, it is because they aren't getting entries. Couture's line fell a bit when Heatley was added because they didn't have that F1 guy. We watched first Chicago and then Vancouver take the Sharks apart with speed, yet you insist that it isn't necessary. Please.

They do need one more possession guy, I do agree with that. What they suffer from is an overload of shooters. There is more than one way to achieve that, dangle as well as size. Leino is an excellent example of a smaller guy who can control it even in the playoffs. In fact I would suggest dangle over size just to be able to throw changeups at various teams. We watched Datsyuk prove that speed can overcome size in more than a few situations.

WT,
I am not exaggerating. Listen to the complaints and getting burned against Chicago and Anaheim by that issue. Offense is additive. Add a third line and it makes the other two better. It isn't necessarily direct. If a team can focus its efforts on two lines only, they have a leg up.

I do look to what is happening and how the Sharks are being disabled. In this playoffs, it was Mitchell more than Pavelski or Wellwood by a lot on what killed that line. He wasn't getting to the puck first. Couture's line dried up against a mobile defense because they didn't have that speed.

Each line needs to be composed with one player in each category with one primary responsibility for forecheck, one for puck control and one for shot.

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05-30-2011, 06:51 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Their PP was fine. Their 5on5 below par. Their PK stunk (at least 50% responsibility of coaching). JT is no longer the offensive threat he was when acquired. There are a load of better offensive centers. Their goaltending was among the worst in the playoffs. They absolutely need to score which means a three line offense. They are not built to shut down other teams and aren't even close to it which means they have to go the other way. The difference between pre-White and post-White was dramatic so that should tell you something. And he was primarily an offensive dman.

Good special teams will get you through 2 rounds of playoffs, but then the calls dry up and the emphasis is on 5on5 play. That improved as soon as the Sharks added mobility to the backend. It dried up when they lost some of that mobility in the playoffs. In previous years, offense has dried up when the opposition can shutdown two lines, so the necessity for a 3 offensive line team is pretty evident.

Before any trades are proposed, figure the need for 3 lines and who is critical to that. Figure who is critical to mobility on the backend. At that point, figure a way to add to it. In terms of what past winners have done, the emphasis is finding that one top 5 skater who moves in without requiring an exit of a top 5 guy who is already in place. Here are the 5: JT, Marleau, Boyle, Couture and Pavs, Heatley and Clowe running for that 5th spot. I wouldn't move any of the 7 names and I would be very circumspect about moving Seto unless they can find speed on the FA market as that has been a pretty dramatic lack for the Sharks offense.
Their goaltending was one of the worst of the playoffs if you only look at stats, not actual play. Niemi was hero #2 this year behind Thornton.

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Old
05-30-2011, 06:53 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Trade Dany Heatley View Post
DW never uses the FA market. He hates it. IMO our D wil look the same next year.
I hope that your are not correct on this don't know if I can handle seeing wallin and huskins on the ice again.

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05-30-2011, 07:03 PM
  #34
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i wish ppl would get on board with "stay the effing course"

we're almost there for christ sake

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05-30-2011, 07:05 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Their goaltending was one of the worst of the playoffs if you only look at stats, not actual play. Niemi was hero #2 this year behind Thornton.
I thoroughly disagree, not to the extent that I think Niemi is AHL fodder. He is an above average NHL goalie. He has a hard time getting to his feet when scrambling and he is a little weak on the blocker side. I expect him to work on the blocker. I don't know about getting back to his feet. Also, not strong on reading the play. There are several others in this playoffs who even by eyeball did a much better job than he. By eyeball, not a lot of miracle saves but not a lot of softies either.

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05-30-2011, 07:07 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
We watched first Chicago and then Vancouver take the Sharks apart with speed, yet you insist that it isn't necessary. Please.
Speed wasn't the only reason the Sharks lost. A mobile defense vs an immobile defense was also a huge reason. Demers was out in the Vancouver series, and only played ~2 minutes a game in the Chicago series. That leaves Boyle/Blake and Boyle/White as the only two puck movers. Compare that with Keith, Seabrook, and Campbell or Hamhuis, Ehrhoff, Edler, Bieksa, and Ballard.
Speed is definitely important, but it isn't the end-all-be-all of post-season success.

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05-30-2011, 07:15 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I completely disagree. Even Detroit, which has been a relatively slow team with a phenomenal blueline, has acquired forwards with some speed to start their chip and chase game. Cleary and Bertuzzi are their primary forecheckers and Bertuzzi's off-season was spent losing weight and gaining speed so he could be that first guy. When the ice seems tilted against the Sharks, it is because they aren't getting entries. Couture's line fell a bit when Heatley was added because they didn't have that F1 guy. We watched first Chicago and then Vancouver take the Sharks apart with speed, yet you insist that it isn't necessary. Please.

They do need one more possession guy, I do agree with that. What they suffer from is an overload of shooters. There is more than one way to achieve that, dangle as well as size. Leino is an excellent example of a smaller guy who can control it even in the playoffs. In fact I would suggest dangle over size just to be able to throw changeups at various teams. We watched Datsyuk prove that speed can overcome size in more than a few situations.

WT,
I am not exaggerating. Listen to the complaints and getting burned against Chicago and Anaheim by that issue. Offense is additive. Add a third line and it makes the other two better. It isn't necessarily direct. If a team can focus its efforts on two lines only, they have a leg up.

I do look to what is happening and how the Sharks are being disabled. In this playoffs, it was Mitchell more than Pavelski or Wellwood by a lot on what killed that line. He wasn't getting to the puck first. Couture's line dried up against a mobile defense because they didn't have that speed.

Each line needs to be composed with one player in each category with one primary responsibility for forecheck, one for puck control and one for shot.
I never said speed wasn't necessary, just that it isn't the most important piece we need. Detroit is loading up on speedy players because they didn't have any before. The Sharks have a few speedy forwards already so it's not like they're all slow. They tend to have the most issues when they're hemmed in the defensive zone and can't break out cleanly.

Vancouver's speedier second line was all but negated by Thornton who is far from the fastest guy on the team. Their depth had success mostly because of their physical play combined with their speed (and key injuries on our side, mostly Pavelski and Clowe. Clowe had almost no success because he lost his puck poise ability, but it was a miracle he even made it out on the ice with his injuries). Ironically enough, the Vancouver line we had the most trouble against was the Sedin line, which was their slowest line by far. They controlled the tempo down low and generated a lot of zone time, and they were able to do so despite their lack of speed because of a good puck moving back-end.

Yes speed can kill you, but the Sharks already are stocked on skill forwards so it's too late and not very smart to reset and go all speed. Sharks need to fill one hole at a time, and personally I think that hole starts with a good puck controlling forward. Sure he doesn't need to be big, but that would definitely help if you're going to put him with the smaller Pavelski and Wellwood/Mitchell. Your later statement sounds like you agree with me for the most part, though I do disagree with it somewhat. Players have to be able to do more than one thing, so you can't just have one "scorer" or one "forechecker", but I get what you're trying to say.

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05-30-2011, 07:18 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Speed wasn't the only reason the Sharks lost. A mobile defense vs an immobile defense was also a huge reason. Demers was out in the Vancouver series, and only played ~2 minutes a game in the Chicago series. That leaves Boyle/Blake and Boyle/White as the only two puck movers. Compare that with Keith, Seabrook, and Campbell or Hamhuis, Ehrhoff, Edler, Bieksa, and Ballard.
Speed is definitely important, but it isn't the end-all-be-all of post-season success.
With the C&C game, it is about getting to the puck first at least getting a tie. Minimally, 3 speed guys on the top 3 lines. If it isn't there, it requires much more accurate puck placement on the chips or much more disciplined line entries to the zone (all 3 forwards wind up in their own zone before heading up ice). This is especially true when facing a mobile defense where it can win the race that much more easily.

I agree about the Demers loss. With a mobile, puckmoving blueline, the puck gets up the ice faster and the defense has less time to set up to win those races. Detroit has used blueline puck movement to cover a lack of speed for quite some time. But even they tip their hats to speed now.

I am wary of the Sharks foregoing speed because they have never seemed to have the discipline for line entries for 5on5 play. There is always someone who won't circle back and will just sit waiting at the line while others do the work.

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05-30-2011, 07:23 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I am wary of the Sharks foregoing speed because they have never seemed to have the discipline for line entries for 5on5 play. There is always someone who won't circle back and will just sit waiting at the line while others do the work.
I think that's more a player tendency or coaching problem rather than a team deficiency. It's a problem that can get fixed if addressed rather than get patched by adding speed with new players.

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05-30-2011, 07:37 PM
  #40
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If you can move Heatley, you move Heatley and replace him with a more cost effective, faster, player. Leino would be ideal obviously, but there are other options. Leino just does not cost you assets if you can get him.

I would like to see the Sharks take the example set by the Hawks and Nucks the last two years and overload this year for a run. I suspect they will try as DW is big on copying what works, and it's been working for other teams. I think Heatley is one of the few passengers on the team, and DW has to know that, and if he can be move, he will be moved.

I would look at trading for a D-man like Burns if one is available. Failing that I would go after Brewer hard to pair with Boyle. I would re-sign White for the bottom pairing, and I would use the remaining cap space to make sure we have the deepest forward group in the league. Leino, Ward, Upshall, etc (get 2 if you can).

I would also leave our goaltending spot open for one of the young goalies to have a shot at it, or Greiss if he'll stay. I would rather have a young cheap guy trying to prove himself and pushing Niemi than another expensive or sub-par backup.

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05-30-2011, 07:46 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Chubbs View Post
I think that's more a player tendency or coaching problem rather than a team deficiency. It's a problem that can get fixed if addressed rather than get patched by adding speed with new players.
That has been going on for years, even pre-JT. I don't think they will ever address it.

I'll give you my ideal, but I sincerely doubt it will happen so you can get an idea of the gist of what I consider ideal for the Sharks. Move Heatley out. Get a lefty two-way dman who can handle top pairing matchups. Pair the TWD with Demers and if not Demers, Boyle. Braun or White for the third righty or even pair them as two righties. Get someone like Cole for your speed/forecheck and get Leino or someone like him for your 3rd puck controller behind Clowe/Thornton. This is an ideal, not that I would expect it to happen.

I am not going all speed. Marleau has it and will pop the odd goal because of it but he does not handle first forecheck duty that well. When I delineate the spots, I agree that all of the guys need to do a bit of other things. I am only looking at primary responsibilities where they can be top 3 on the team in that category.

One other minor reminder. On proposed acquisitions, particularly forwards, look at playoff history. If they have been around a bit and don't produce in the playoffs, expect that to continue. That is something that rarely turns around.

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05-30-2011, 07:50 PM
  #42
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I think Heatley is one of the few passengers on the team, and DW has to know that, and if he can be move, he will be moved.
Yep, Number 3 and 4 in points respectively. Quite the passenger. I doubt DW agrees with you and he won't be moved. I can see people wanting to shift money around for a more balanced team, but the Heatley hate has reached ridiculous proportions on this board.

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05-30-2011, 07:52 PM
  #43
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I don't even know why anyone is still drumming to the beat of trading Heatley. He isn't getting trading guys, get over it.

I like the idea of getting Brewer, but at 5m? Yikes!

How long of a term?

I wonder if we can convince Edm to buyout Souray with a throwaway prospect closer to the end of summer. If we can get Souray signed here for cheap for a year, I think he will work out here. Big and hard shot to hurt the shot blockers, does ok in his own end. He could actually handle 2 on 1's and take away the pass really well.

I would like either of these guys depending on the cap hit and term

Brewer 1yr @ 5m would be ok
Kaberle if Brewer isn't interested, not sure what we would have to pay
Souray 1yr @ 2.2m

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05-30-2011, 08:01 PM
  #44
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I don't even know why anyone is still drumming to the beat of trading Heatley. He isn't getting trading guys, get over it.

I like the idea of getting Brewer, but at 5m? Yikes!

How long of a term?

I wonder if we can convince Edm to buyout Souray with a throwaway prospect closer to the end of summer. If we can get Souray signed here for cheap for a year, I think he will work out here. Big and hard shot to hurt the shot blockers, does ok in his own end. He could actually handle 2 on 1's and take away the pass really well.

I would like either of these guys depending on the cap hit and term

Brewer 1yr @ 5m would be ok
Kaberle if Brewer isn't interested, not sure what we would have to pay
Souray 1yr @ 2.2m
The Rags thoroughly scouted Souray with an eye to getting him. They instead spent more assets to acquire McCabe who only saw limited minutes, mainly special teams. That tends to indicate that Souray is A LOT less than what he was when we last saw him.

LZ,
I posted my ideal. That isn't hate, it is the issue of balance and giving an example of ideal. I don't expect him to be moved this go round. A lesser year next year, might convince DW but not this year.

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05-30-2011, 08:02 PM
  #45
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Yep, Number 3 and 4 in points respectively. Quite the passenger. I doubt DW agrees with you and he won't be moved. I can see people wanting to shift money around for a more balanced team, but the Heatley hate has reached ridiculous proportions on this board.
He hasn't performed in the playoffs (to his salary level) and that is all that matters at this point. He's 'ok' in the regular season, and I'm not saying he's a bum, but his production is easily, and more effectively, replaced with a cheaper player. Hell I prefer Seto over Heatley between the two when you consider cost.

I've been arguing this since we traded for him. He's not a bad player, he just isn't the right player for this team. Never has been.

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05-30-2011, 08:14 PM
  #46
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And you won't complain when scoring disappears in the first round of the playoffs? That didn't work so well against Anaheim a couple of years ago.
and theres that big of a difference in him going cold in the 2nd and 3rd rounds?

and you do realize that in the anaheim series pavelski's line was the biggest problem right?

pavelski is the worst player on the team for going hot and cold. when pavelski is hot, he can be argued to be a top 20 player in the world, but when he goes cold he does nothing for the team. and the bad part of pavelski is his cold streaks last a lot more then his hot streaks do.

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05-30-2011, 08:18 PM
  #47
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and theres that big of a difference in him going cold in the 2nd and 3rd rounds?

and you do realize that in the anaheim series pavelski's line was the biggest problem right?

pavelski is the worst player on the team for going hot and cold. when pavelski is hot, he can be argued to be a top 20 player in the world, but when he goes cold he does nothing for the team. and the bad part of pavelski is his cold streaks last a lot more then his hot streaks do.
Pavelski went cold in Anaheim, as did his linemates. He can be matched somewhat easily. However, he is a playoff producer. There are enough matchups out there, even on playoff teams, that he can win. Streaky is not an argument for me as all players are streaky. As an exercise, name a more consistent UFA-years player for the same or lesser price. There are very few. And when he is cold, he is still doing PK and defensive matchups.

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05-30-2011, 08:20 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
pavelski is the worst player on the team for going hot and cold. when pavelski is hot, he can be argued to be a top 20 player in the world, but when he goes cold he does nothing for the team. and the bad part of pavelski is his cold streaks last a lot more then his hot streaks do.
I find it hilarious how opinions of a player can change so quickly. Pavelski went from being one of the clutchest players in the league to worst player on the team when cold. When Pavelski isn't scoring, he's doing a lot of other things most casual fans miss. He wins faceoffs, blocks shots, kills penalties, creates scoring chances, plays the point on the power play, and is still one of the better defensive forwards on the team. To say he adds nothing when he's not scoring is ignorant.

Also even at his best, I wouldn't put Pavelski in the top 20 forwards in the league.

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05-30-2011, 08:22 PM
  #49
RainbowDash
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
The Rags thoroughly scouted Souray with an eye to getting him. They instead spent more assets to acquire McCabe who only saw limited minutes, mainly special teams. That tends to indicate that Souray is A LOT less than what he was when we last saw him.

LZ,
I posted my ideal. That isn't hate, it is the issue of balance and giving an example of ideal. I don't expect him to be moved this go round. A lesser year next year, might convince DW but not this year.
The Rags have a salary cap issue just as much as anybody else in serious contention. I'm sure they had it in the back of their mind.

I am sure the Rags considered a lot of things and ultimately picked McCabe because he would just overall be more useful. McCabe can block shots, and obviously is/was in better condition to jump in and make an immediate impact. Souray still needs to rehab his injuries. 2 ugly wrist injuries and a few other things to my understanding.

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Old
05-30-2011, 08:28 PM
  #50
SJeasy
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Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
The Rags have a salary cap issue just as much as anybody else in serious contention. I'm sure they had it in the back of their mind.

I am sure the Rags considered a lot of things and ultimately picked McCabe because he would just overall be more useful. McCabe can block shots, and obviously is/was in better condition to jump in and make an immediate impact. Souray still needs to rehab his injuries. 2 ugly wrist injuries and a few other things to my understanding.
McCabe was virtually the same salary as Souray so that wasn't an impediment. They had lots of room from their LTIR. It was a skill choice. They didn't think of McCabe's defense enough to take him out of limited last pairing matchups; that was huge statement.

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