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Would you move a forward for quality Dman? (Who?)

View Poll Results: Would you move a forward for quality Dman? (Who?)
*Joe Thornton (NMC) 0 0%
*Patrick Marleau (NMC) 4 5.80%
*Dany Heatley (NMC) 32 46.38%
Joe Pavelski 7 10.14%
Ryane Clowe 0 0%
Logan Couture 1 1.45%
Devin Setoguchi (RFA) 8 11.59%
No - devlop within or go to July 1st 17 24.64%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-30-2011, 08:29 PM
  #51
ChubbChubby
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
That has been going on for years, even pre-JT. I don't think they will ever address it.

I'll give you my ideal, but I sincerely doubt it will happen so you can get an idea of the gist of what I consider ideal for the Sharks. Move Heatley out. Get a lefty two-way dman who can handle top pairing matchups. Pair the TWD with Demers and if not Demers, Boyle. Braun or White for the third righty or even pair them as two righties. Get someone like Cole for your speed/forecheck and get Leino or someone like him for your 3rd puck controller behind Clowe/Thornton. This is an ideal, not that I would expect it to happen.

I am not going all speed. Marleau has it and will pop the odd goal because of it but he does not handle first forecheck duty that well. When I delineate the spots, I agree that all of the guys need to do a bit of other things. I am only looking at primary responsibilities where they can be top 3 on the team in that category.

One other minor reminder. On proposed acquisitions, particularly forwards, look at playoff history. If they have been around a bit and don't produce in the playoffs, expect that to continue. That is something that rarely turns around.
Your first point doesn't change what I said, It's still a coaching or player issue, and if that's true then adding a new player won't change anything.

As far as your ideal is concerned, you're right in saying it will likely never happen. There is no such thing as an perfect team, but GMs strive to get their rosters as close as they can get. At this point we have to accept Heatley and what he brings to the team, despite him not being the perfect fit. On the bright side, the team could do much worse. It was obvious he was hurting late in the season and during the playoffs, so if he can stay healthy I'm sure he'll contribute more.

I agree the Sharks need a winger or two with speed to contribute on the forecheck, but I believe the Sharks have more pressing issues at hand. Puck-moving defense is the most important, and I believe a puck controlling forward is second in priority. If the Sharks have room to add speed with whatever cap space they have left, then they should go for it and make the team more complete, but I think it's the least important among their big concerns.

As far as acquisitions go, I'm not knowledgeable enough of players around the league to make realistic proposals, and most posters on the boards are in the same boat. Big names or big market players often come up in these proposals but they are highly unlikely and unreasonable. Luckily I'm not the GM or management so I don't have to worry about it too much.

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05-30-2011, 08:30 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Chubbs View Post
I find it hilarious how opinions of a player can change so quickly. Pavelski went from being one of the clutchest players in the league to worst player on the team when cold. When Pavelski isn't scoring, he's doing a lot of other things most casual fans miss. He wins faceoffs, blocks shots, kills penalties, creates scoring chances, plays the point on the power play, and is still one of the better defensive forwards on the team. To say he adds nothing when he's not scoring is ignorant.

Also even at his best, I wouldn't put Pavelski in the top 20 forwards in the league.
He lost far too many important faceoffs this playoff season. Its one thing when you go cold in scoring. But I wasn't pleased him going cold when he needed to come up with a cluthcy faceoff win in a critical moment. However, I can forgive him.

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05-30-2011, 08:34 PM
  #53
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He lost far too many important faceoffs this playoff season. Its one thing when you go cold in scoring. But I wasn't pleased him going cold when he needed to come up with a cluthcy faceoff win in a critical moment. However, I can forgive him.
I can forgive him too, but it's weird. Pavs sometimes runs into EXTREMELY cold playoff play. In addition to the times this year, think Anaheim loss when he was absolutely terrible.

EDIT: By cold playoff play I meant to say cold playoff faceoff play.


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05-30-2011, 08:36 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
He lost far too many important faceoffs this playoff season. Its one thing when you go cold in scoring. But I wasn't pleased him going cold when he needed to come up with a cluthcy faceoff win in a critical moment. However, I can forgive him.
He also won quite a few more but people tend to remember the bad ones. Pavelski had the second best faceoff percentage on the team behind Thornton if you ignore the small sample size of Mitchell and Wellwood.

If you're going to pin the blame of faceoff failure on any player, blame Marleau and Couture. They were FAR worse, and arguably lost even more important faceoffs.

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05-30-2011, 08:38 PM
  #55
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I can forgive him too, but it's weird. Pavs sometimes runs into EXTREMELY cold playoff play. In addition to the times this year, think Anaheim loss when he was absolutely terrible.
In his defense, he was younger and not as physically developed as he is today. Also he was facing up against a hall-of-famer defensive tandem and not getting any help from his linemates. It's hard to single him out when no one was good in that series.

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05-30-2011, 08:41 PM
  #56
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McCabe was virtually the same salary as Souray so that wasn't an impediment. They had lots of room from their LTIR. It was a skill choice. They didn't think of McCabe's defense enough to take him out of limited last pairing matchups; that was huge statement.
The Rags had to consider a contract year player vs a player with another year. Sather has a lot of work to do with their RFAs this off season. It would have been nearly impossible to keep Souray if contract negotiations with RFAs went sour and some of them went to salary arbitration.

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05-30-2011, 08:42 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
The Rags had to consider a contract year player vs a player with another year. Sather has a lot of work to do with their RFAs this off season. It would have been nearly impossible to keep Souray if contract negotiations with RFAs went sour and some of them went to salary arbitration.
I was somewhat a proponent of getting Souray at the time, but now I'm thinking he's not worth the problems.

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05-30-2011, 08:44 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Chubbs View Post
As far as your ideal is concerned, you're right in saying it will likely never happen. There is no such thing as an perfect team, but GMs strive to get their rosters as close as they can get. At this point we have to accept Heatley and what he brings to the team, despite him not being the perfect fit. On the bright side, the team could do much worse. It was obvious he was hurting late in the season and during the playoffs, so if he can stay healthy I'm sure he'll contribute more.

I agree the Sharks need a winger or two with speed to contribute on the forecheck, but I believe the Sharks have more pressing issues at hand. Puck-moving defense is the most important, and I believe a puck controlling forward is second in priority. If the Sharks have room to add speed with whatever cap space they have left, then they should go for it and make the team more complete, but I think it's the least important among their big concerns.

As far as acquisitions go, I'm not knowledgeable enough of players around the league to make realistic proposals, and most posters on the boards are in the same boat. Big names or big market players often come up in these proposals but they are highly unlikely and unreasonable. Luckily I'm not the GM or management so I don't have to worry about it too much.
My point was that each proposed move should close a hole without opening another. Map out an ideal team and if a transaction doesn't get closer to that ideal, don't do it. I wouldn't drop Seto to get another controller because you are then stuck with Marleau/Mitchell which is dramatically less than ideal for first forecheck. The good thing is that generally first forecheckers can be relatively cheap (the less of a shot that they have, the cheaper they are).

Also GMs tend to go bird in hand before all other issues. They won't intentionally open a hole hoping to close it with a second transaction. Unfortunatey, DW has done this a few times. Under the conditions of what the coaches will choose and what the Sharks need on the blueline, that is the primary reason why I can go along with inking White to a new contract.

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05-30-2011, 08:47 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Chubbs View Post
In his defense, he was younger and not as physically developed as he is today. Also he was facing up against a hall-of-famer defensive tandem and not getting any help from his linemates. It's hard to single him out when no one was good in that series.
i guess he ran into hall of fame defensive tandem against detroit also, how about chicago, or how about detroit again this year, or how about vancouver.

and about the physically developed as he is today thing, then why is it this year seemed to be his worst year ever on the puck. it was embarrassing to see him get bumped off the puck every single time he had it. looked like he had zero balance and ability to stay on his feet when he got touched.

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05-30-2011, 08:50 PM
  #60
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i guess he ran into hall of fame defensive tandem against detroit also, how about chicago, or how about detroit again this year, or how about vancouver.

and about the physically developed as he is today thing, then why is it this year seemed to be his worst year ever on the puck. it was embarrassing to see him get bumped off the puck every single time he had it. looked like he had zero balance and ability to stay on his feet when he got touched.
He was on the injury list and it was legs.

Chubbs,
Don't look at faceoff percentages on guys who are primarily taking second faceoff time. They can't cheat because the team would be penalized. All of those percentages suffer for that reason. Marleau gets a ton of second faceoffs behind JT and is even second when doing PK with Pavs.


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05-30-2011, 08:52 PM
  #61
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We need a guy who can score 45+ points and play good D who is under 27. I'd trade any forward save for Thornton for that player.

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05-30-2011, 08:53 PM
  #62
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Absolutely no to trading Pavs. That will hurt and and I think will come back to bite us. He's still young and I don't doubt with all the playoff experience he could become even better and overcome his inconsistencies.

Getting Heatley off the books would give us lots of options but I doubt it happens. Wouldn't move anyone besides him and I'm optimistic Heater works hard to improve his game and will be back as a force next year.

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05-30-2011, 08:53 PM
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He was on the injury list and it was legs.
this year he was, i never heard his name in any of the tweets, articles about injuries.

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05-30-2011, 09:01 PM
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this year he was, i never heard his name in any of the tweets, articles about injuries.
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/sharks/...lski-thornton/

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05-30-2011, 09:06 PM
  #65
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has to be heater. 7.5 million are you kidding me? i like the guy but he's no where near worth his cap hit, this isn't even debatable. now of course, what we could get from him is questionable, so he might not be a realistic trade. but he is the guy we SHOULD try and get rid of. i'd honestly take soupy for him straight up, as bad as his contract is, as i think our backend would be pretty good with him in there.
What happened to Marleau? I remember you were about to crucify the man after game 5 of the WCSF

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05-30-2011, 09:19 PM
  #66
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I don't think speed is as big of a factor as some think it is. Speed isn't that important if you have a good puck-moving backend, which hopefully will be addressed in the offseason. What the Sharks need is another forward with size who can control the puck along the boards and create scoring chances, ideal for a puck possession team. First line has Thornton. Second line has Clowe. Third line had Wellwood; while he's adequate for regular season play for depth scoring, he's too small for a physical playoff series. I'd like someone to replace Mitchell on the third line who could bring that physical presence.

The only player close to fitting that description in the organization is Macintyre, but he's injury prone and unproven.
Macintyre has 4 goals and 4 assists after 42gp, and is a -15. Not sure if he'd be the ideal to fill in that spot...

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05-30-2011, 09:29 PM
  #67
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I think Pavs and Clowe would have to be involved to get a quality Dman back. I was thinking like a James Neal for Alex Goligoski type trade.

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05-30-2011, 09:32 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
My point was that each proposed move should close a hole without opening another. Map out an ideal team and if a transaction doesn't get closer to that ideal, don't do it. I wouldn't drop Seto to get another controller because you are then stuck with Marleau/Mitchell which is dramatically less than ideal for first forecheck. The good thing is that generally first forecheckers can be relatively cheap (the less of a shot that they have, the cheaper they are).

Also GMs tend to go bird in hand before all other issues. They won't intentionally open a hole hoping to close it with a second transaction. Unfortunatey, DW has done this a few times. Under the conditions of what the coaches will choose and what the Sharks need on the blueline, that is the primary reason why I can go along with inking White to a new contract.
Which is exactly what I've been saying about White. I think you even stole my bird in hand reference

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05-30-2011, 09:57 PM
  #69
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Which is exactly what I've been saying about White. I think you even stole my bird in hand reference
I'm pretty sure you stole it from me

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05-30-2011, 10:08 PM
  #70
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Macintyre has 4 goals and 4 assists after 42gp, and is a -15. Not sure if he'd be the ideal to fill in that spot...
I meant more his size and supposed skillset. I know he's nowhere near close to playing for the big club on a scoring line. He's just the closest thing we have, and that just shows how thin we are in our prospects for that area.

EDIT: Totally forgot about Coyle. I guess we're not too bad off in the future if he keeps getting better.

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He was on the injury list and it was legs.

Chubbs,
Don't look at faceoff percentages on guys who are primarily taking second faceoff time. They can't cheat because the team would be penalized. All of those percentages suffer for that reason. Marleau gets a ton of second faceoffs behind JT and is even second when doing PK with Pavs.
That still leaves Couture then. Either way Pavs isn't as bad as some are saying he is.

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My point was that each proposed move should close a hole without opening another. Map out an ideal team and if a transaction doesn't get closer to that ideal, don't do it. I wouldn't drop Seto to get another controller because you are then stuck with Marleau/Mitchell which is dramatically less than ideal for first forecheck. The good thing is that generally first forecheckers can be relatively cheap (the less of a shot that they have, the cheaper they are).

Also GMs tend to go bird in hand before all other issues. They won't intentionally open a hole hoping to close it with a second transaction. Unfortunatey, DW has done this a few times. Under the conditions of what the coaches will choose and what the Sharks need on the blueline, that is the primary reason why I can go along with inking White to a new contract.
I agree with you, but I'm not really sure why you're stating the obvious when I never brought any of those points up.


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05-30-2011, 10:13 PM
  #71
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What happened to Marleau? I remember you were about to crucify the man after game 5 of the WCSF
In fairness, I was too and Patty is my favorite Shark.

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05-30-2011, 10:27 PM
  #72
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That still leaves Couture then. Either way Pavs isn't as bad as some are saying he is.
You should also look at the Detroit series. When Babcock had a chance, he kept trying to get Dats on Couture. It tells you about Pavs defensively. I realize Couture may get better, but until then . . . Just another argument for Pavs.

I mapped out the overall strategy to make a strong case both for you and others as to why they shouldn't being moving forwards, even for a top end TWD. The point is that good construction is usually additive. They don't really have replacement parts for the forward corps on the farm. Mash, Ferriero, McGinn, McCarthy, etc. are really not close to even being tweeners. Until we get a good look at Coyle, Hamilton, Viedensky, etc., we won't have an idea of what parts are reasonably and immediately replaceable. They are closer to replacement parts on the defense, Braun, Doherty, Petrecki, Moore, etc.

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05-30-2011, 10:44 PM
  #73
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You should also look at the Detroit series. When Babcock had a chance, he kept trying to get Dats on Couture. It tells you about Pavs defensively. I realize Couture may get better, but until then . . . Just another argument for Pavs.

I mapped out the overall strategy to make a strong case both for you and others as to why they shouldn't being moving forwards, even for a top end TWD. The point is that good construction is usually additive. They don't really have replacement parts for the forward corps on the farm. Mash, Ferriero, McGinn, McCarthy, etc. are really not close to even being tweeners. Until we get a good look at Coyle, Hamilton, Viedensky, etc., we won't have an idea of what parts are reasonably and immediately replaceable. They are closer to replacement parts on the defense, Braun, Doherty, Petrecki, Moore, etc.
Ugh, Hamilton... I really hope he turns out. I was watching some of his highlights yesterday of him with Niagra and he can sure snipe.

EDIT: and I would love to have his brother, I know there's a lot of talk about him. It is just a shame he'll be going to early, and I DON'T think it is worth trading up to get him.

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05-30-2011, 10:47 PM
  #74
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I voted no, simply because moving Seto doesn't make sense as most of the forwards are slow and he's one of the few who is not. Couture can't leave, he's the future after the current "core" leaves. Clowe and Pavs should be put on short leases, I understand that they both are tremendous assets but if one of them can be swapped for a top-tier Dman, and I mean only top tier, then I think it should at least be considered. Otherwise I'd prefer we just keep working with what we got and hope for 9 top 6 forwards or great strides between, Petrecki, Doherty, Demers, Braun and whoever else we have.

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05-30-2011, 10:53 PM
  #75
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I voted no, simply because moving Seto doesn't make sense as most of the forwards are slow and he's one of the few who is not. Couture can't leave, he's the future after the current "core" leaves. Clowe and Pavs should be put on short leases, I understand that they both are tremendous assets but if one of them can be swapped for a top-tier Dman, and I mean only top tier, then I think it should at least be considered. Otherwise I'd prefer we just keep working with what we got and hope for 9 top 6 forwards or great strides between, Petrecki, Doherty, Demers, Braun and whoever else we have.
Clowe and Pav's have highly overachieved for this franchise. I just don't see how, with their current contributions, you trade them to improve in another areas without sending a terrible message to the rest of the team.

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