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Gormley piece: Carle v. Leino?

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Old
05-30-2011, 07:08 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
you said this



there is not one single stat or argument you can use to back up a statement like that.
Sure there is a single stat I can use to back up the statement that Carle was the most consistent plus player in the NHL last year.

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05-30-2011, 07:09 PM
  #77
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Giveaways are a big deal. They're momentum-changers. Especially in the playoffs. Same with special teams, which is why the reliance on Carle's ES numbers is being pretty shallow considering his ineffectiveness on the PP and lack of contributions on the PK.

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05-30-2011, 07:11 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Yes he was, but he was still used. There was the option of not using Carle on the PK at all for the Flyers Coaching staff.
Running with a 4 man rotation in the PK isn't advisable though with a 40 year-old defenseman and a 35 year-old defenseman with a bad back/hip.

And my mistake, he was actually 6th in PK TOI.

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05-30-2011, 07:12 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Ghost of Downie View Post
If you're talking about GA/60, that's not really made up. It's goals against when that player is on the ice, carried over a 60 minute period. Basically GAA for a player.



That's the point though. +/- is skewed not only by team quality and scoring, but also by quality of competition. Meszaros' defensive skills didn't suddenly vanish once he was put out against tough assignments, he just gave up more goals because he was playing better competition. Therefore, using +/- to break down defensive play isn't a good strategy.
Again, breaking it down over a 60 minute period doesn't make sense to me. Some people beleive in them, I don't. I guess we have a difference in opinion.

I'd state that Meszaros play in the second half, as with most on the team, wasn't as good in the 2nd half as it was in the first half of the Season.
As I've said before, +/- isn't cut and dry. It is but one indicator. But it is an indicator and it is reliable.

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05-30-2011, 07:12 PM
  #80
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Someone seems to be on the ball. Hopefully this is REALLY part of Homer's agenda.

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Old
05-30-2011, 07:15 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Ghost of Downie View Post
Running with a 4 man rotation in the PK isn't advisable though with a 40 year-old defenseman and a 35 year-old defenseman with a bad back/hip.

And my mistake, he was actually 6th in PK TOI.
I agree. And he should be 6th on the PK. I personally wouldn't use Carle at all on the PK. I don't think that's the best spot for him and his game isn't really suited for it. With that being said, that doesn't mean he's not solid defensively.

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05-30-2011, 07:16 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
Giveaways are a big deal. They're momentum-changers. Especially in the playoffs. Same with special teams, which is why the reliance on Carle's ES numbers is being pretty shallow considering his ineffectiveness on the PP and lack of contributions on the PK.
I don't see how Carle's PP numbers and his small role on the PK in anyway diminishes his outstanding production in ES play.

Every defenseman who handles the puck a lot and sees a lot of icetime is going to have giveaways. Including Pronger.

There are areas in Carle's game with room for improvement. One is his play on the PP. And the other is finishing his offensive chances. He's still relatively young for an NHL defenseman and he is just entering his prime. He's only going to get better.


Last edited by VanSciver: 05-30-2011 at 07:27 PM.
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05-30-2011, 07:27 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
I don't see how Carle's PP numbers and his small role on the PK in anyway diminishes his outstanding production in ES play.

Every defenseman who handles the puck a lot and sees a lot of icetime is going to have giveaways. Including Pronger.

There are areas in Carle's game with room for improvement. One is his play on the PP. and the other is finishing his offensive chances. he's still relatively young for an NHL defenseman and he is just entering his prime. he's only going to get better.
Well, he's certainly being paid to produce on the power play. A lot of guys were more productive, make less, and do just fine at even-strength.

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05-30-2011, 07:29 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
Well, he's certainly being paid to produce on the power play. A lot of guys were more productive, make less, and do just fine at even-strength.
Who would these players be? Absolutely he's being paid to produce on the PP. So was the rest of the players on the Flyers disapointing PP this Season. Carle's Cap hit is reasonable for a player of his caliber.

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05-30-2011, 07:30 PM
  #85
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Who would these players be?
The majority of them.

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05-30-2011, 07:31 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
The majority of them.
Don't know what your getting at.

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05-30-2011, 07:38 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Don't know what your getting at.

That he has Modry-itis. Carle's career and paycheck comes from making an outlet pass. Like Jaroslav Modry once did. Randy Jones, etc. It catches up, and it did in the playoffs when Pronger went down and Carle looked like a lost little boy most the time he was on the ice. Money is better spent elsewhere, and someone else should spend it.

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05-30-2011, 07:42 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
That he has Modry-itis. Carle's career and paycheck comes from making an outlet pass. Like Jaroslav Modry once did. Randy Jones, etc. It catches up, and it did in the playoffs when Pronger went down and Carle looked like a lost little boy most the time he was on the ice.
Don't know what Modry-itis is, not that I need to know. I would also disagree that he looked like a lost little boy. Carle is paid what he is because he's a good all around defenseman. There's more to his game than making outlet passes. Which he is very good at. 11 games do not define a player. Carle had outstanding numbers and production in the regular Season when Pronger was not in the lineup. As I've said before, Carle's play, like a lot of players on the team, was subpar in the playoffs.

I'm available to discuss each goal that Carle was on the ice for at ES and where the breakdown was, leading to the goal scored during the playoffs.


Last edited by VanSciver: 05-30-2011 at 07:49 PM.
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05-30-2011, 07:44 PM
  #89
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I just want Carle gone either for a usable stay-at-home d-man or prospects and if we don't get a SAH d-man, then sign Hejda.

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05-30-2011, 08:06 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Don't know what Modry-itis is, not that I need to know. I would also disagree that he looked like a lost little boy. Carle is paid what he is because he's a good all around defenseman. There's more to his game than making outlet passes. Which he is very good at. 11 games do not define a player. Carle had outstanding numbers and production in the regular Season when Pronger was not in the lineup. As I've said before, Carle's play, like a lot of players on the team, was subpar in the playoffs.

I'm available to discuss each goal that Carle was on the ice for at ES and where the breakdown was, leading to the goal scored during the playoffs.
Well, you were using +/- to explain how great Carle was, which makes it all too convenient for me to point out that his -8 continues to stand out as the worst in the playoffs. So yes, the team was very bad against Boston. By your standards, Carle is the worst. When Pronger went out, he couldn't pick it up. We're paying defensemen all this money to do exactly that.

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05-30-2011, 08:27 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Don't know what Modry-itis is, not that I need to know. I would also disagree that he looked like a lost little boy. Carle is paid what he is because he's a good all around defenseman. There's more to his game than making outlet passes. Which he is very good at. 11 games do not define a player. Carle had outstanding numbers and production in the regular Season when Pronger was not in the lineup. As I've said before, Carle's play, like a lot of players on the team, was subpar in the playoffs.

I'm available to discuss each goal that Carle was on the ice for at ES and where the breakdown was, leading to the goal scored during the playoffs.
I hope GM's from around the league are reading your responses, because you make Carle sound fantastic, yet I still don't want him on the team next year for that cap hit.

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05-30-2011, 08:40 PM
  #92
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Carle
-does not have a good point shot
-does not shoot
-not physical at all
-tends to be a spectator while defending front of the net

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Old
05-30-2011, 09:18 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Carle isn't accumulating plusses because of his defensive play. He's pretty weak in his own end.
You can keep saying it over and over again, fortunately, it doesn't make it true. Even if you use huge fonts.

You really need to change your handle to "Carliephan"....

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05-30-2011, 09:30 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
You can keep saying it over and over again, fortunately, it doesn't make it true. Even if you use huge fonts.

You really need to change your handle to "Carliephan"....
List of defenseman on the Flyers who are superior to Carle in their own zone:

Pronger
Timonen
Mez
Coburn
OD

Hm. Pretty much all of them.

As for +/- being a reliable indicator of defensive prowess, well, it isn't. Lidstrom is a -2. If +/- was any indicator of defensive ability you would be forced to assume that Carle is much better than Lidstrom...yet Carle is nowhere close to him when it comes to defensive ability.

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05-30-2011, 10:08 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
You can keep saying it over and over again, fortunately, it doesn't make it true. Even if you use huge fonts.

You really need to change your handle to "Carliephan"....
I think there are plenty of seats on the Carle phanwagon. Mine's an aisle.

Seriously, though, Carle is a superior trade-away option because he can be replaced on this team for a cheaper defenseman who should be available as a FA. Plus, the #1 priority should soften the blow to any downgrade on defense. However, Carle has value; it's not Paul Holmgren putting the proverbial lipstick on a pig and trying to palm him off for crap.

Win-win.

I'd look at Steve Montador, who made $1.55 mil last year with Buffalo. He put up 26 points last year and was a useless +16 in 73 games. He's a right-hand shot, to boot.

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05-30-2011, 10:12 PM
  #96
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Carle is a nice player, but he's the one guy on the defense I'd like to see moved. We'd be fine with a top four of Pronger,Timonen,Mez and Coburn if they had a solid 5th and 6th. You could probably fill the 5th/6th spots for less than Carle makes.

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05-30-2011, 10:57 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
The behindthenet stats aren't real. They're a statistics nut's made up math formula. There's more holes in those stats then swiss cheese.

Each player is different. Each player compiles his +/- in different ways. Green recorded 76 points I beleive which helped him compile a high plus figure.

+/- absolutely can be used as one indicator of a player's defensive play on the ice.
..."more holes ins those stats then [sic] swiss cheese"?

Do enlighten, cuz I suspect you aren't capable of providing a rational follow up to that statement.

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05-30-2011, 11:07 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Sure there is a single stat I can use to back up the statement that Carle was the most consistent plus player in the NHL last year.
he was the weak link on the Flyers when it came to doing what his position requires. to play defense. I dont give a rats ass if he was a +30. he ****ing sucks. end of story.

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05-30-2011, 11:15 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
You can keep saying it over and over again, fortunately, it doesn't make it true. Even if you use huge fonts.

You really need to change your handle to "Carliephan"....
Works both ways, Larry.

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05-30-2011, 11:26 PM
  #100
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"He's solid in his own zone." I think that is offically the first time I ever read that. I dont think even DenverBone (his biggest fan) ever even stated this. Carle is one of our teams worse defense players.

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