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Old
05-29-2011, 10:49 PM
  #126
MasterDecoy
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I don't think Detroit would necessarily become the best team in the East. That team is old and may be without Lidstrom. Besides, by no means does it have the best goaltender.
the myth surrounding the modern detroit team is really astounding. from the coaching to their miraculously lucky draft picks which get passed on as sure things.

detroit is on the decline, their best players are getting older and more injury prone as the years advance. and as good as their imagined pipeline is, it's nowhere good enough to replace the likes of the players that will be retiring in a few years.

and lets not forget that lids is or will be retiring very soon.

that said and as much as i hate to say it, the bruins have a good team. and to me, the similarities between the bruins and the canadiens are really astounding. low-skilled depth, amazing goaltending, storied franchises, doppelganger coaches, short on high-end talent, both team dives ... kinda like to brothers hating on each other. they have slightly better depth and injuries didn't bug them as much as us this year but let's not take anything away from their accomplishment. fact is, they are a good team, they have a good gm and an oddly martin-like coach who either seems to know what he's doing, or is looking ****ing clueless. reminds you of someone?

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05-29-2011, 11:18 PM
  #127
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The problem I have with that is that the Habs do generate a large number of scoring chances. They aren't converting, which has been their problem all year, and that's really a matter of luck. But even if you think that it's a failing of the roster, the number of scoring chances tell us their lack of offense is not for a lack of trying.

It's easy to be blinded by the lack of actual goals, but Martin's system is not preventing the players from generating offense. Passive teams simply do not outshoot their opponents, which Montreal did handily especially with the score tied. And the Habs would outright dominate play when trying to come from behind.



Do not be blinded by the final score. Tampa dominated game two from end to end, outchancing Boston 2-to-1 throughout. The reason Boston won is that Roloson blew it.



Again, the reason Boston had a 3-0 lead at all was that Roloson blew it. The Bruins had three total scoring chances in the first and scored three times (twice on scoring chances and one on a shot that was not a scoring chance). Tampa dominated that game end to end.

The problem is getting blinded by the score. The default assumption is that if a team gets out of a period ahead 3-0, they dominated, and if the other team comes back, something major must have changed. However, in hockey, sometimes the results are divorced from the process, particularly when the goaltending is exceptionally good or bad.
We can debate in circles. That is why I said I am curious to see how a more aggressive team like Vancouver fares against the Bruins.

That will give us an idea as to whether it was the personnel on the ice or the systems devised by the coaching staff which made any difference.

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05-29-2011, 11:42 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
We can debate in circles. That is why I said I am curious to see how a more aggressive team like Vancouver fares against the Bruins.
Hopefully it won't go like Tampa Bay -- Vancouver grossly dominating and Luongo imploding and handing Boston the series.

Boston is already overhyped enough.

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05-30-2011, 12:15 AM
  #129
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The problem I have with that is that the Habs do generate a large number of scoring chances. They aren't converting, which has been their problem all year, and that's really a matter of luck.
You say you're unbiased and objective and most everyone who don't use numbers let their perceptions blind them to reality.

One could just as easily say the same of you. You expect your over simplifications to always render an accurate picture of what's really going on but I think what happens instead is that you misuse certain numbers and read too much into certain statistics then try to make an opinion on faulty premises. Certainly your approach is more scientific and more mathy, but it's worthless if the premise is wrong. Explaining everything that doesn't fit into luck and the nature of randomness/statistics is convenient but not necessarily accurate or more objective than people who just use their eyes.

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Old
05-30-2011, 12:21 AM
  #130
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By no means am I a capologist...I absolutely dislike the term...the best thing that happened to the Bruins was having Savard on the shelf. With a healthy Savard, would the Bruins have been able to go out and get Kelly and Peverley. These two guys provided the shut-down element that the Canadiens could not overcome at even strength. These two guys were the key acquisitions who saved the Boston GM's job, because without them, there is no Horton magic in the first round, or any round.

I am quite curious about the signing of Yemelin. If he can adapt to the North American grind within a 2 year window, and becomes that stay at home physical d-man, then that has to buy time for Tinordi, who realistically is still 3-4 years away from the NHL. For sure, these guys are not immediate problem-solvers, but the wait might be well rewarded.

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05-30-2011, 12:44 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Certainly your approach is more scientific and more mathy, but it's worthless if the premise is wrong. Explaining everything that doesn't fit into luck and the nature of randomness/statistics is convenient but not necessarily accurate or more objective than people who just use their eyes.
Which part of my statement do you have trouble with -- that the Habs generated a large number of scoring chance, or that their low conversion rates is a matter of luck?

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05-30-2011, 06:49 AM
  #132
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likewise, we were extrememly lucky that Savard was not in the lineup for Boston... if they don't go 0-for-pp, the series doesn't last 7 games.
I disagree with this completely.

First, with Savard in the lineup you also have his salary cap hit which was not the case when he was de-activated allowing the B's to get Kelly, Peverly and Kaberle. These guys have helped even though the PP still blows. It really was pitiful before their arrival tbh.

Secondly, if you can't make the leap of logic that had the Habs gone through the B's they'd be in the finals then you can't make the assumption that a PP goal would have shortened the series.

Some posters are making it seem as though Boston is an elite team with depth when in fact if you look at their season totals you will see that they were out shot for a large part of the season particularly at the start of the season. It's no coincidence that when Thomas has a great year Chara is a Norris candidate. It happened 3 years ago and is happening now. When TT has an off year so does Chara. In the playoffs when TT is on they win when he's off they lose. Every game with Tampa was like that. They aren't as good as some make them out to be or as bad as others make them out to be. I'll take them on anyway with my full healthy team against theirs.

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05-30-2011, 08:44 AM
  #133
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The Bruins are a very good hockey team and are deep at lots of positions, we are as well but unfortunately had to deal with many injuries. We proved we could hang in there, I love this core of players but we are missing a piece on offence and a piece on Defence, something like Boston did last season getting Horton before the draft, I hope Gauthier can find an impact player like that

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05-30-2011, 09:14 AM
  #134
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Meh, I honestly think we would have gone to the ECF, but would not have gone through that lightning squad.

Whatever happens, we took the Eastern Champions to OT in game 7 along with 2 other OT games. Our team can be proud and hold their heads high.

The Bruins getting to the SCF means nothing really and like many said, this team will have a somewhat different face next year.

It's too early to speculate, but with our youngsters having gained this experience and our "leadership group" mostly signed, the future looks bright.


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Old
05-30-2011, 07:49 PM
  #135
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that was the only game Seguin did anything at all. He was a total no show after that.



Did you miss the part where Cammy had 10 pts in the first round TEN POINTS! The guy is a scoring machine in the playoffs. Gio also really stepped up. It's guys like AK and Gomez who were no shows. And the fact that we had a crippled D, our bottom six does kind of suck, I agree with you. Moen is but a shadow of his Duck days.

But we have Shultz in the system, and that guy, I think, will be key in the coming years.

Now if we can get a guy like Laich...we're really starting to talk. I dont think that the habs need that much top 6 talent, because I firmly believe it is there. But they do need wingers that can do the dirty work, go into corners, win battles (board battles have been the bane of the habs last season...it was maddening how weak they were in those).

I dont think the habs are a Kowalchuk player away, I think they are just a couple sandpaper players away from being a top contender.
bro wake up ...Cammy was a -5 and the Bruins didn`t score many goals but our top 2 lines were a -18 in the series

bro ...trust me we cant compete 5 on 5 .....

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05-30-2011, 07:51 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
We have a matchup advantage against Boston. Just somehow, we always make them look bad despite our deficiencies. I believe that overstates our capabilities.

If you look at the recent Cup winners, they ALL had some really, really mean bottom sixes and very solid D. We have neither at the moment.
yes ....and we dont even have 2 top lines to compete

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05-30-2011, 09:12 PM
  #137
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Just one OT winner would have eliminated the Bruins and I think that the presence of either Pacioretty or Markov would have added quite a bit of additional pressure on them. It's moot whether the Habs would have won but I's sure theBruins fans were happy the Habs didn't have them available.
You can't talk about Markov without talking about Savard. That guy makes a huge difference and there's no way that the B's get shut down on the PP for the series with him in the lineup. He's especially valuable because Boston is weak up front.

As for the Bruins actually making it to the finals, I think it shows how weak the East is right now. The only team that I saw as being any kind of power was Washington and they still couldn't seem to put it together. Tampa is on the rise and they'll be better in the future, Pittsburgh hopefully will get it's stars back but right now the East sucks.

If the Bruins win the cup this year, it will be one of (if not THE) weakest teams to win ever. Thomas has been brilliant and that's always a key ingredient but it's still not a great team.

Vancouver is who I picked to win the cup and I think they'll win but you never know in a 7 game series. What I do know is that the Bruins are really fortunate to be in the Eastern Conference because there's a half dozen clubs in the west that are head and shoulders better right now.

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05-30-2011, 10:33 PM
  #138
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You can't talk about Markov without talking about Savard. That guy makes a huge difference and there's no way that the B's get shut down on the PP for the series with him in the lineup. He's especially valuable because Boston is weak up front.
As someone already brought up, you can't really discuss having the injured players back without looking at the salaries involved.
Savard surely would have helped them on the PP, but does this mean Seguin doesn't play the year on their roster? Or does that mean not getting Kelly and Peverley, that have combined for 19pts and formed a very important trio with Ryder versus us?
Also, let us not forget that although Savard is still talked about as if he's one of the best playmakers in the NHL, his play seemed to have been incredibly affected from his injuries. He had 10pts this year in 25GP, last year in the POs he had 3pts in 7GP and 33pts in 41GP during the season. So, just how big of a threat he would have been I'm not so sure about.

In any event, if you speak of healthy rosters and bring Savard back in, then that means Gorges and Markov are here (as well as DD and MaxPac) instead of Wiz-Sopel.
So, I think not only does our offense get better because of our injured forwards would be present, but Markov also makes our offense better as well as our defense, and Gorges is also a plus on defense.
There isn't much to debate here really, if both teams had healthy rosters, I don't see how Boston beats us.


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Old
05-30-2011, 10:42 PM
  #139
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As someone already brought up, you can't really discuss having the injured players back without looking at the salaries involved.
Savard surely would have helped them on the PP, but does this mean Seguin doesn't play the year on their roster? Or does that mean not getting Kelly and Peverley, that have combined for 19pts and formed a very important trio with Ryder versus us?
Also, let us not forget that although Savard is still talked about as if he's one of the best playmakers in the NHL, his play seemed to have been incredibly affected from his injuries. He had 10pts this year in 25GP, last year in the POs he had 3pts in 7GP and 33pts in 41GP during the season. So, just how big of a treat he would have been I'm not so sure about.

In any event, if you speak of healthy rosters and bring Savard back in, then that means Gorges and Markov are here (as well as DD and MaxPac) instead of Wiz-Sopel.
So, I think not only does our offense get better because of our injured forwards would be present, but Markov also makes our offense better as well as our defense, and Gorges is also a plus on defense.
There isn't much to debate here really, if both teams had healthy rosters, I don't see how Boston beats us.
That is a point with Savard, Boston can't make any trades unless they could of dumped one of their more expensive wingers like Ryder to make cap space. Then add that at any moment one hit to Savard could bring back his concussion symptoms and Boston could of had a worse team going into the playoffs.

If Montreal hadn't lost so many top players to injury who's to say they don't go after some players at trade deadline. PG basically traded just to fill the injuries to the defense.

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05-30-2011, 11:36 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
You say you're unbiased and objective and most everyone who don't use numbers let their perceptions blind them to reality.

One could just as easily say the same of you. You expect your over simplifications to always render an accurate picture of what's really going on but I think what happens instead is that you misuse certain numbers and read too much into certain statistics then try to make an opinion on faulty premises. Certainly your approach is more scientific and more mathy, but it's worthless if the premise is wrong. Explaining everything that doesn't fit into luck and the nature of randomness/statistics is convenient but not necessarily accurate or more objective than people who just use their eyes.
Very true, well said.

Stats mean everything and nothing, but trying to explain away the "nothing" solely with "luck" makes the entire argument as subjective as the belief on god

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05-31-2011, 07:54 AM
  #141
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I actually see it being Columbus who gets the move over to the east. They're probably a franchise that could stand to save a few bucks on travel too

Plus less travel for the players/team in my opinion is quite valuable. A good schedule is what it is. Obviously not the most important thing but it helps.

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05-31-2011, 08:16 AM
  #142
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I actually see it being Columbus who gets the move over to the east. They're probably a franchise that could stand to save a few bucks on travel too

Plus less travel for the players/team in my opinion is quite valuable. A good schedule is what it is. Obviously not the most important thing but it helps.
Again though, it's not always about what makes the most sense, it's about whether or not the League and Bettman himself holds to the promises they made to Ilitch and the Wings when Toronto moved to the East.
Maybe more importantly, it's about how hard Ilitch and the Wings push to have them hold those promises.

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05-31-2011, 11:17 AM
  #143
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Just a Bruins fan opinion while trolling your board during his lunch break....

I think you guys have an awesome core of talent to build around. Price is young and exceptional, Subban scared the heck out of me every time he had the puck. And Pacioretty strikes me as a guy that has the Bruins number (like Saku Koivu and Chris Higgins to a lesser extent).

When a team beats my team in the playoffs, I always take solace when that team goes all the way, it makes me feel like at least we lost to the Champs, whether it be the Eastern Conference of Stanley Cup. While it's hard to give credit where credit is due for the team making it that far (and I know I probably wouldn't want to if the situation were reversed).

I'm not going to pretend I know all your prospects, and/or who else could make the team, but I think with what I know you guys will be right back in the thick of things in the East next year! Hopefully Max makes a full recovery and we have some more heated, fun, games next year.

Can I ask one question though, if you all want Markov back so much, wouldn't you at least expect that he'd sign for much less money?? Every year I hear "if onlly Markov were healthy... " If I was all of you, I'd prefer to keep Wisniewski, he was another guy that made me nervous all series.

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05-31-2011, 11:54 AM
  #144
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Can I ask one question though, if you all want Markov back so much, wouldn't you at least expect that he'd sign for much less money?? Every year I hear "if onlly Markov were healthy... " If I was all of you, I'd prefer to keep Wisniewski, he was another guy that made me nervous all series.
You'll find Habs fans who will sign up to any side of a debate about our players. But I don't see Wisniewski as remotely comparable to Markov. And since Markov was basically earning well below his market value for us before, just taking him back at the same salary would still be like a hometown discount.

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05-31-2011, 12:01 PM
  #145
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You'll find Habs fans who will sign up to any side of a debate about our players. But I don't see Wisniewski as remotely comparable to Markov. And since Markov was basically earning well below his market value for us before, just taking him back at the same salary would still be like a hometown discount.
I do think Markov is a heck of a player, hope my first post didn't sound like I was saying the opposite. It just seems to me he is always hurt, especially at playoff time. Maybe I'm wrong though!

I actually would prefer to see the B's snatch up Wisniewski and let Kaberle walk.

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05-31-2011, 10:01 PM
  #146
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In my opinion The Bruins advanced because the East was incredibly weak this year. They didn't even need to use their grit to beat the Habs. They faced a strangely shaky Flyers group all over the place with no solid goalies. And Tampa was a cinderalla team that should not have been there. Boston advanced by staying in Julien's system, avoid the mystakes, play safe. While the Canucks had to kill themselves to get where they were. It was trench wars in all the games i've seen in the west with grit, skills, speed.

In my opinion the Habs should model themselves of the team in the west, aim higher.

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05-31-2011, 11:37 PM
  #147
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In my opinion The Bruins advanced because the East was incredibly weak this year. They didn't even need to use their grit to beat the Habs. They faced a strangely shaky Flyers group all over the place with no solid goalies. And Tampa was a cinderalla team that should not have been there. Boston advanced by staying in Julien's system, avoid the mystakes, play safe. While the Canucks had to kill themselves to get where they were. It was trench wars in all the games i've seen in the west with grit, skills, speed.

In my opinion the Habs should model themselves of the team in the west, aim higher.
I agree with you. I enjoy watching puck possession teams play the game of hockey. The San Jose/Detroit series was a thing of beauty. Aggressive (but not goonish out of control hockey like the Bruins fans enjoy) hockey on both offense and defense reminds me of the good old days of Canadiens hockey.

And I wish that the Bruins would have resorted to gooning it up against the Habs. They did that in the first two games and we beat them. Once they quit trying to injure Subban and a couple of other players and decided to play hockey, the Bruins did well.

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06-01-2011, 08:22 AM
  #148
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What is sad is that there never again be a Bruins/Habs SC final.
The truest of rivals.
Sick of this "meeting in the first round crap".

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06-01-2011, 10:39 AM
  #149
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In my opinion The Bruins advanced because the East was incredibly weak this year. They didn't even need to use their grit to beat the Habs. They faced a strangely shaky Flyers group all over the place with no solid goalies. And Tampa was a cinderalla team that should not have been there. Boston advanced by staying in Julien's system, avoid the mystakes, play safe. While the Canucks had to kill themselves to get where they were. It was trench wars in all the games i've seen in the west with grit, skills, speed.

In my opinion the Habs should model themselves of the team in the west, aim higher.
Gotta agree that the east this year was terribly weak. You mix up the 16 teams from the east and west and have them go through the playoffs that way, and no eastern team makes the semi's.

It's rare you see a team with such disastrous special teams as boston make the finals.

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06-01-2011, 12:47 PM
  #150
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I agree with you. I enjoy watching puck possession teams play the game of hockey. The San Jose/Detroit series was a thing of beauty. Aggressive (but not goonish out of control hockey like the Bruins fans enjoy) hockey on both offense and defense reminds me of the good old days of Canadiens hockey.
The Habs were one of the best puck possession clubs in the East this year. You could have put them in the Central and their numbers wouldn't have looked out of place at all.

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