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Tuomo Ruutu to Ottawa

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Old
05-30-2011, 09:59 PM
  #1
Marvelous Manked
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Tuomo Ruutu to Ottawa

I really like this guy, and I know Carolina really likes him a lot as well. Is an overpayment required? Possibly.

Let's here what you think what he is worth.

Something based around Wiercoch and Nashville's 1st could be a starter.

Generally, I feel I have a good read on player's value, but I may need help here. One thing I do know, however, is that he is valuable to the Canes, and they aren't just looking to ship him somewhere.

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05-30-2011, 10:25 PM
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To

2011 Nashville 1st (21st Overall)
Nick Foligno

To

Tuomo Ruutu


Too much? Too little? I honestly don't know.

EDIT: Took out Wiercoch + Carolina 3rd


Last edited by Marvelous Manked: 05-30-2011 at 10:46 PM.
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05-30-2011, 10:43 PM
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I don't know why Carolina would want Wiercioch.

McBain, Dumoulin and Faulk are better puck movers.

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05-30-2011, 11:28 PM
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Even though that's a fair offer, it's going to take more to get Ruutu out of Carolina.

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05-31-2011, 12:02 AM
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Carolina's soft enough even with Ruutu. If you want him, replace his physicality, first and foremost

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05-31-2011, 12:16 AM
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I don't understand these constant threads suggesting bringing completely replaceable players to Ottawa, who do nothing to move the organization forward.

Ruutu is a 28 yo, 2nd liner making $3.8M per who is a UFA next summer.

We don't need 2nd liners because:
- we don't enough enough 1st liners for them to matter.
- we have a tonne of 2nd liner prospects.

We don't need expensive 28 yo's because:
- the ones being suggested aren't good enough to build around.
- they may not be around through a couple of free agencies until we're competitive.
- we may be looking to dump them for cap space in a few years --> young players contract renewals.

Also, I'd kind of like to see what Murray does with that 1st rounder. On average, there's only a 20% chance that the 21st pick becomes a 2nd liner or better... but with 18 & 16, Murray's gotten Karlsson and Rundblad.

I'd rather see how this plays out than acquire who'll make us better when we should be bad and probably be a bad value contract when we should be good.

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05-31-2011, 01:00 AM
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didn't we just have a value of thread for Ruutu yesterday? Do we need on for every team for a player

I think we should just have a general value of thread for players

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05-31-2011, 06:45 AM
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Marvelous Manked
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
didn't we just have a value of thread for Ruutu yesterday? Do we need on for every team for a player

I think we should just have a general value of thread for players
I did my normal, checking the last 5 pages and there was nothing there.

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05-31-2011, 06:53 AM
  #9
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I also pride myself as someone who is pretty good at assessing player value, and I'm ride there with you: Nash 1st and Wiercioch seems like a good trade.

That being said, I don't know that Carolina is in a position to lose any physicality, nor do I think their primary need is 2nd tier defenseman.

Decent proposal value-wise for sure though.

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05-31-2011, 06:56 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
I don't understand these constant threads suggesting bringing completely replaceable players to Ottawa, who do nothing to move the organization forward.

Ruutu is a 28 yo, 2nd liner making $3.8M per who is a UFA next summer.

We don't need 2nd liners because:
- we don't enough enough 1st liners for them to matter.
- we have a tonne of 2nd liner prospects.

We don't need expensive 28 yo's because:
- the ones being suggested aren't good enough to build around.
- they may not be around through a couple of free agencies until we're competitive.
- we may be looking to dump them for cap space in a few years --> young players contract renewals.

Also, I'd kind of like to see what Murray does with that 1st rounder. On average, there's only a 20% chance that the 21st pick becomes a 2nd liner or better... but with 18 & 16, Murray's gotten Karlsson and Rundblad.

I'd rather see how this plays out than acquire who'll make us better when we should be bad and probably be a bad value contract when we should be good.
I don't see Ruutu as one of the constant forwards how we bring.

Yes, he is physical, but he is also a point producer. He can play all 3 forward positions, and seems to be a regular 50-60 point man if he stays healthy.

In regards to your comment about prospects, I really don't see where you're coming from. Caporusso isn't likely to be a part of the team any time soon, if at all, and Silfverberg is just as likely to be a 3rd liner as he is a 2nd or 1st. Ruutu's versatility adds another dimension to why I think he is an interesting player to target.

Let's say we drafted Landeskog and wanted him to play right away.

Landeskog-Ruutu-Alfredsson


Let's say we drafted Couturier and wanted him to play right away.

Ruutu-Couturier-Alfredsson.


Oops, Alfie got injured, we drafted Strome and he's in the O.

Greening-Regin-Ruutu



Trent, you're my favourite poster on these boards, but I disagree with you here. I think Tuomo Ruutu and similar players are who we should be looking at. It seems like not so long ago we had a plethora of 50 point players, but this year the player with the 3rd most points was Foligno with like 34. This team needs these types of all around players to build around.

I do agree with the free agency point though. I would want to either add conditional picks based on him re-signing, or have a deal in place if a trade was ever to take place.

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05-31-2011, 07:45 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
Yes, he is physical, but he is also a point producer. He can play all 3 forward positions, and seems to be a regular 50-60 point man if he stays healthy.
Yes, a valuable piece for a contender... which we won't be for quite some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
In regards to your comment about prospects, I really don't see where you're coming from. Caporusso isn't likely to be a part of the team any time soon, if at all, and Silfverberg is just as likely to be a 3rd liner as he is a 2nd or 1st. Ruutu's versatility adds another dimension to why I think he is an interesting player to target.
1st line (primary scorers): Spezza & Alfie, hopefully our top pick this year at some point in the future. Alfie and the #6 pick will likely never be good at the same time... it's not even useful to consider them two separate players.

Potential 2nd liners (secondary scorers): Michalek, Regin, Foligno, Butler, Silfverberg, DaCosta, Greening, Hoffman, Grant, Sorenson, Stone, Petersson, etc... I don't even care who makes it, there are so many that 2 or 3 probably will.

Silfverberg is as likely to be a 3rd liner as he is a 1st liner... the much more likely scenario at this point looks like 2nd liner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
Let's say we drafted Landeskog and wanted him to play right away.

Landeskog-Ruutu-Alfredsson

Let's say we drafted Couturier and wanted him to play right away.

Ruutu-Couturier-Alfredsson.
99% of 18 yo's don't belong in the NHL and certainly not on the top-2 lines of an NHL team.

I see no reason to force the team into being better for the two years Alfie has remaining. I would personally love the team to be great and see him go out on a high note... but our prospects aren't even close to filling all of the key roles we need filled.

We're going to miss the playoffs next year, maybe the year after as well. Ruutu will do nothing whatsoever to change that, he'll just make our draft picks worse and cost us two pretty solid rebuilding pieces... before we lose him to UFA or have to dump his salary in 4-5 years when we are contending.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
Trent, you're my favourite poster on these boards, but I disagree with you here. I think Tuomo Ruutu and similar players are who we should be looking at. It seems like not so long ago we had a plethora of 50 point players, but this year the player with the 3rd most points was Foligno with like 34. This team needs these types of all around players to build around.
The organization needs to develop the players they have at all positions for all roles around Spezza and a few others. In terms of needs, it badly needs 1st line players to lead the offense. We have Spezza and nothing else. Alfie is 38, the 6th overall is a crapshoot, none of other prospects are likely 1st liners and need to fill two spots along with Spezza.

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05-31-2011, 08:01 AM
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Marvelous Manked
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Yes, a valuable piece for a contender... which we won't be for quite some time.



1st line (primary scorers): Spezza & Alfie, hopefully our top pick this year at some point in the future. Alfie and the #6 pick will likely never be good at the same time... it's not even useful to consider them two separate players.

Potential 2nd liners (secondary scorers): Michalek, Regin, Foligno, Butler, Silfverberg, DaCosta, Greening, Hoffman, Grant, Sorenson, Stone, Petersson, etc... I don't even care who makes it, there are so many that 2 or 3 probably will.

Silfverberg is as likely to be a 3rd liner as he is a 1st liner... the much more likely scenario at this point looks like 2nd liner.



99% of 18 yo's don't belong in the NHL and certainly not on the top-2 lines of an NHL team.

I see no reason to force the team into being better for the two years Alfie has remaining. I would personally love the team to be great and see him go out on a high note... but our prospects aren't even close to filling all of the key roles we need filled.

We're going to miss the playoffs next year, maybe the year after as well. Ruutu will do nothing whatsoever to change that, he'll just make our draft picks worse and cost us two pretty solid rebuilding pieces... before we lose him to UFA or have to dump his salary in 4-5 years when we are contending.




The organization needs to develop the players they have at all positions for all roles around Spezza and a few others. In terms of needs, it badly needs 1st line players to lead the offense. We have Spezza and nothing else. Alfie is 38, the 6th overall is a crapshoot, none of other prospects are likely 1st liners and need to fill two spots along with Spezza.
First of all, this is the last time I'm ever disagreeing with you, because it is impossible to carry an argument with you. Not because you are bad in any way, more to do with the fact that you pwn everyone in every way.

In terms of Landeskog, the reason I said and think that he belongs on an NHL team is because that's the response from a good number of NHL scouts. Plus, when I saw him play twice this year, he looked like an NHL body playing in the OHL. I think he may be that 1% exception that is NHL ready.

The bolded is the part that I agree with, for sure. However, when you said the fact that only 1% of 18 year olds should actually be playing in the NHL, I think that that applies to a lot of our prospects that you listed as potential 2nd liners. Most of the players listed are at least 3-4 years from making an impact in the NHL as a top 6 forward, if making an impact at all, and I don't see why we should ice crappy teams until/if they are ready. Of course, I don't want to make a trade like that for a short term replacement, but if we manage salary correctly (ie no 15 million, 3 year contracts for 35+ players), I don't see why Ruutu can't fit in our long term plans.

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05-31-2011, 08:18 AM
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All that needs to be said is this. Ruutu is an excellent player but we are rebuilding the next two years. Use picks to get younger, develop prospect pool, and go from there. No need for a short story.

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05-31-2011, 08:24 AM
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All that needs to be said is this. Ruutu is an excellent player but we are rebuilding the next two years. Use picks to get younger, develop prospect pool, and go from there. No need for a short story.
The guy is 28 years old. Some would say he's only about to enter his prime, other's would say he is still 4 years away from his prime.

We aren't trading for Mark Recchi. He's a 28 year old.

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05-31-2011, 08:39 AM
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The guy is 28 years old. Some would say he's only about to enter his prime, other's would say he is still 4 years away from his prime.

We aren't trading for Mark Recchi. He's a 28 year old.
Why not just sign a lesser UFA as a stop gap instead of trading these assets? Who will replace Foligno?

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05-31-2011, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Why not just sign a lesser UFA as a stop gap instead of trading these assets? Who will replace Foligno?
Why not just sign a lesser UFA 4th line left winger to replace Foligno?

My intentions weren't to make this a short term move like you are implying. They were to have Ruutu as a long term option.

-Winchester
-Smith
-O Brien
-Greening
-Condra
-Shannon
-Daugavins
-Carkner
-UFA

All of those could replace Foligno.

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05-31-2011, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Manked View Post
Why not just sign a lesser UFA 4th line left winger to replace Foligno?

My intentions weren't to make this a short term move like you are implying. They were to have Ruutu as a long term option.

-Winchester
-Smith
-O Brien
-Greening
-Condra
-Shannon
-Daugavins
-Carkner
-UFA

All of those could replace Foligno.
None of which have Foligno's current skillset and potential. The way I see it, you are saying who needs Chris Kelly when you have Zack Smith. Just load up on top 6 and you'll be ok.

Ruutu as a long term option first you have to make a deal with the Canes, then sign him to an extension next year where he will want 4+ on the Free Agent Market.

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05-31-2011, 08:53 AM
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None of which have Foligno's current skillset and potential. The way I see it, you are saying who needs Chris Kelly when you have Zack Smith. Just load up on top 6 and you'll be ok.

Ruutu as a long term option first you have to make a deal with the Canes, then sign him to an extension next year where he will want 4+ on the Free Agent Market.
I tried to say later on that I would want either a conditional pick in case he didn't re-sign or an extension in place.

Chris Kelly was in his prime, and Zach Smith is a rookie. I'm not sure I understand that argument. I, as well as many other Sens fans, see how we have tons of bottom 6 prospects that are about to make the jump to the NHL. In my mind, Greening, Condra, O Brien, Smith, and potentially Silfverberg all have a chance to become solid bottom 6ers. Out of those I just listed, I can only see Silfverberg becoming a top 6er.

Caporusso, Petersson, etc are all boom or bust. They aren't going to be 3rd liners.

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05-31-2011, 09:09 AM
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I tried to say later on that I would want either a conditional pick in case he didn't re-sign or an extension in place.

Chris Kelly was in his prime, and Zach Smith is a rookie. I'm not sure I understand that argument. I, as well as many other Sens fans, see how we have tons of bottom 6 prospects that are about to make the jump to the NHL. In my mind, Greening, Condra, O Brien, Smith, and potentially Silfverberg all have a chance to become solid bottom 6ers. Out of those I just listed, I can only see Silfverberg becoming a top 6er.

Caporusso, Petersson, etc are all boom or bust. They aren't going to be 3rd liners.
Foligno is much more skilled than the players mentioned as comparables was my point about Kelly.

The idea is Silfverberg, Condra, Greening, Daugavins, Butler get ample chances to prove they are NHL calibre top or bottom 6. Ruutu takes away a spot from a young player who could be the next Alfredsson. If Ott selects a forward at 6th, we could be looking at a logjam at forward later on with Ruutu extended.

Why not save a 1st round pick, who could be a top 6 forward with Sens good drafting. Its alot easier and Ruutu is loved in Carolina anyways. To me its a moot point but still.

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05-31-2011, 09:30 AM
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Foligno is much more skilled than the players mentioned as comparables was my point about Kelly.

The idea is Silfverberg, Condra, Greening, Daugavins, Butler get ample chances to prove they are NHL calibre top or bottom 6. Ruutu takes away a spot from a young player who could be the next Alfredsson. If Ott selects a forward at 6th, we could be looking at a logjam at forward later on with Ruutu extended.

Why not save a 1st round pick, who could be a top 6 forward with Sens good drafting. Its alot easier and Ruutu is loved in Carolina anyways. To me its a moot point but still.
This is not how you run an organization. You don't hold off on improving your team because someone MIGHT be the next Daniel Alfredsson. I mean, what a stupid way of thinking. Out of the 5 names you've mentioned, we'd be LUCKY if 2 of them ever became half-decent top 6 forwards, let alone the next Daniel Alfredsson. Even the 6th overall pick will most likely not become an 1000 point, 1000 game player. With your logic, we should get rid of Michalek right now. He's taking up a spot on the big league roster, and keeping the spot from someone like Daugavins, who COULD be the next Alfredsson. I'm sorry, I just can't get over how you said that.

Logjams aren't a bad thing, either. To me, that's what you need to become a Stanley Cup Contender. We have a logjam of defensive prospects. That's a good thing right? So shouldn't it be a good thing one day if we have a logjam of offensive prospects as well, waiting to get there chance into the NHL?

I believe that's the way the Detroit Red Wings run their organization. Their prospects don't get rushed, because they have too many NHL quality players already on their roster. But who wants to do things like the Red Wings? They've never had success.

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05-31-2011, 09:37 AM
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First of all, this is the last time I'm ever disagreeing with you, because it is impossible to carry an argument with you. Not because you are bad in any way, more to do with the fact that you pwn everyone in every way.
I just try to be rationale, communicate well and select evidence that proves what I'm trying to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manked View Post
In terms of Landeskog, the reason I said and think that he belongs on an NHL team is because that's the response from a good number of NHL scouts. Plus, when I saw him play twice this year, he looked like an NHL body playing in the OHL. I think he may be that 1% exception that is NHL ready.
Landeskog could probably play in the NHL next season, but we couldn't count on him to score.

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The bolded is the part that I agree with, for sure. However, when you said the fact that only 1% of 18 year olds should actually be playing in the NHL, I think that that applies to a lot of our prospects that you listed as potential 2nd liners. Most of the players listed are at least 3-4 years from making an impact in the NHL as a top 6 forward, if making an impact at all, and I don't see why we should ice crappy teams until/if they are ready. Of course, I don't want to make a trade like that for a short term replacement, but if we manage salary correctly (ie no 15 million, 3 year contracts for 35+ players), I don't see why Ruutu can't fit in our long term plans.
I wouldn't say that most of them are 3-4 years away... I'd say that we have waves of forwards/prospects that we'll need to make decisions on (every year) for the next 3-ish years. Some will stick and some will need to move on because they'll fail and lose competitions to the next wave. In addition, we seem to have a plan to build the defense around 4 x 20 yo D-men and 3 of them have combined for less than 10 NHL games (Rundblad, Cowen and Wiercioch). The D is going to have to develop and come together, the bottom 3 lines need to define themselves and we need to figure out if/whether Anderson or Lehner can be the guy.

Silfverberg... as far as I've heard; the AHL, SEL and KHL have similar talent levels. At 20 yo, 6'2, 190 lb, gritty, all-round Silfverberg finished 22nd in the SEL in scoring. At 24 yo, 6'0, 180 lb, soft, 1-way Butler had a very good season in the AHL... but was not on pace to be 22nd in scoring. Silfverberg's downside is 3rd liner, but that isn't looking like his most likely outcome.

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05-31-2011, 09:48 AM
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Silfverberg... as far as I've heard; the AHL, SEL and KHL have similar talent levels. At 20 yo, 6'2, 190 lb, gritty, all-round Silfverberg finished 22nd in the SEL in scoring. At 24 yo, 6'0, 180 lb, soft, 1-way Butler had a very good season in the AHL... but was not on pace to be 22nd in scoring. Silfverberg's downside is 3rd liner, but that isn't looking like his most likely outcome.
Wait, what's your argument here? Butler was an AHL All-Star, and had a better PPG in the AHL than Silfverberg in the SEL. I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't understand your argument.

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05-31-2011, 09:52 AM
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I love Ruutu, but I have to agree, sign someone like Laich, Leino, trade for someone who wouldn't cost as many assets, Fleishmann. Don't try to get one of the Canes better forwards, the price will be too high for a rebuilding team.

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05-31-2011, 09:52 AM
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This is not how you run an organization. You don't hold off on improving your team because someone MIGHT be the next Daniel Alfredsson. I mean, what a stupid way of thinking. Out of the 5 names you've mentioned, we'd be LUCKY if 2 of them ever became half-decent top 6 forwards, let alone the next Daniel Alfredsson. Even the 6th overall pick will most likely not become an 1000 point, 1000 game player. With your logic, we should get rid of Michalek right now. He's taking up a spot on the big league roster, and keeping the spot from someone like Daugavins, who COULD be the next Alfredsson. I'm sorry, I just can't get over how you said that.

Logjams aren't a bad thing, either. To me, that's what you need to become a Stanley Cup Contender. We have a logjam of defensive prospects. That's a good thing right? So shouldn't it be a good thing one day if we have a logjam of offensive prospects as well, waiting to get there chance into the NHL?

I believe that's the way the Detroit Red Wings run their organization. Their prospects don't get rushed, because they have too many NHL quality players already on their roster. But who wants to do things like the Red Wings? They've never had success.
Yea. I'm going to take advice on how to run an organization from a guy who wants to trade 2 1st round draft picks during a rebuild for a really good player with one year left on his contract for a team that isn't close to being a contender....

There is a huge problem with tantrums on these boards. You say one word, it discredits an entire argument of validity. Well, to be honest I think I'm talking to a wall right now. I'm out.

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05-31-2011, 09:57 AM
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Marvelous Manked
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Yea. I'm going to take advice on how to run an organization from a guy who wants to trade 2 1st round draft picks during a rebuild for a really good player with one year left on his contract for a team that isn't close to being a contender....

There is a huge problem with tantrums on these boards. You say one word, it discredits an entire argument of validity. Well, to be honest I think I'm talking to a wall right now. I'm out.
I'm sorry, I'm not dissing you personally. Every point I have made is about hockey, and nothing but. I have done nothing that has crossed a line at all, and if you just back out of this respectful hockey argument, then that's fine.

If you hadn't noticed, I have recently added that I would be more interested in if there was a conditional pick going the other way (if he signs or not next year), or a contract extension could be put in place. You're making my proposal seem much more ludicrous than it actually is. I'm not proposing that we trade Rundblad for Tedenby

One thing to add, also, not directed to you but towards SpezDispenser. I don't think Fleischmann will make it to free agency, I don't think Laich is a top 6 player, and I don't see Jokinen signing in Ottawa, although I hope he does. I hope we can sign (and not trade for) a top 6er, but I'm not sure if it will happen.

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