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Would you move a forward for quality Dman? (Who?)

View Poll Results: Would you move a forward for quality Dman? (Who?)
*Joe Thornton (NMC) 0 0%
*Patrick Marleau (NMC) 4 5.80%
*Dany Heatley (NMC) 32 46.38%
Joe Pavelski 7 10.14%
Ryane Clowe 0 0%
Logan Couture 1 1.45%
Devin Setoguchi (RFA) 8 11.59%
No - devlop within or go to July 1st 17 24.64%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-31-2011, 03:58 AM
  #76
Le Rosbeef
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To me, the obvious one to explore is Brent Burns, as has been suggested. Why?

26 years old, minute eater, size, production, some physicality, great shot. Add to that, Minnesota is seriously lacking something offensively which makes the potential exist as trading partners. We'd have to give something significant but wouldn't he look great in Teal?

What we would have to give up though is anyone's guess. To me it starts with Pavelski, and while the thought turns my stomach, he's the kind of asset that would help get it done. With Couture's emergence, I'd make him our second line pivot full time and make this deal. Might not be popular, but it's where I'm at. I agree we need 3 good lines but if your top 6 forwards (Clowe, Heatley, Pavelski, Setoguchi, Marleau) all take big shifts 'off' during the playoffs, it's a moot point anyway. Let's get 2 lines rolling consistently before we covet 3.

I'd put Shea Weber above him still but frankly I think the asking price will be ludicrous.

That said, I don't expect it would happen. So I'm pinning my hopes in the 'no' camp to bring in Pitkanen. By no means as good an option as Burns, but he would bring some quality that we sorely miss.

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Old
05-31-2011, 04:41 AM
  #77
Lebanezer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Clowe and Pav's have highly overachieved for this franchise. I just don't see how, with their current contributions, you trade them to improve in another areas without sending a terrible message to the rest of the team.
I agree with you, but Marleau, because he loves SJ and his family, Thornton, he proved his worth more than ever in the POs, and Heatley, no one will take him, are all impossible to move. As I said before, I voted no, mostly because I just don't think a deal makes sense. Better to stick with what we have and hope our young dmen develop.

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Old
05-31-2011, 12:11 PM
  #78
WineShark
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Yep, Number 3 and 4 in points respectively. Quite the passenger. I doubt DW agrees with you and he won't be moved. I can see people wanting to shift money around for a more balanced team, but the Heatley hate has reached ridiculous proportions on this board.
Heatley has two sources of dislike. One is the move from Ottawa which engendered some league-wide hate, but the other is from Sharks fans who expected a 50 goal snipper. I get tired of the random fan who trolls that crap too because nobody really ever heard what Heatley did or didn't do, or what the Sens did or didn't do to create the mess there. But from the Sharks perspective, many are disappointed because instead of the top line talent carrying a major part of the teams cap, we got a player that is just as inconsistent as Marleau and he's a below average skater who has time and space taken away at oppportune times. Patty at least has wheels and should be a 30 goal scorer every year. Heater? Hard to say.

I tip my hat to him for buying into the system and playing a two-way game at the expense of his scoring (thats a presumption ... the scoring part), but he will need to be much better next year with the salary he's carrying. From that perspective, he is clearly "not worth it."

But to the point of the thread, I'm in agreement with you and several others who think DW can do more damage breaking up the core than adding to it. We have some decisions to make about several players this next year, but when you add Braun and Demers to the competition for defensive roster slots, I don't see a need to trade out a top 6 forward for a top pair defenseman and believe Boyle should and will skate fewer minutes next year with the emergence of others who can step in to special teams roles.

Never say never. I could part with a player for the right one in return, but larely the decisions on player additions will be on role players and bottom pairs/4th line players. Its probably the most set the team has ever been.

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Old
05-31-2011, 12:38 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
Heatley has two sources of dislike. One is the move from Ottawa which engendered some league-wide hate, but the other is from Sharks fans who expected a 50 goal snipper. I get tired of the random fan who trolls that crap too because nobody really ever heard what Heatley did or didn't do, or what the Sens did or didn't do to create the mess there. But from the Sharks perspective, many are disappointed because instead of the top line talent carrying a major part of the teams cap, we got a player that is just as inconsistent as Marleau and he's a below average skater who has time and space taken away at oppportune times. Patty at least has wheels and should be a 30 goal scorer every year. Heater? Hard to say.

I tip my hat to him for buying into the system and playing a two-way game at the expense of his scoring (thats a presumption ... the scoring part), but he will need to be much better next year with the salary he's carrying. From that perspective, he is clearly "not worth it."

But to the point of the thread, I'm in agreement with you and several others who think DW can do more damage breaking up the core than adding to it. We have some decisions to make about several players this next year, but when you add Braun and Demers to the competition for defensive roster slots, I don't see a need to trade out a top 6 forward for a top pair defenseman and believe Boyle should and will skate fewer minutes next year with the emergence of others who can step in to special teams roles.

Never say never. I could part with a player for the right one in return, but larely the decisions on player additions will be on role players and bottom pairs/4th line players. Its probably the most set the team has ever been.
Hell I don't even dislike him. He's a fine player and seems like a decent guy. I just don't think his playstyle fits in here (and he's a bit overpaid).

I think he'd fit in better on a team like LA actually.

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Old
05-31-2011, 01:01 PM
  #80
Led Zappa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
Heatley has two sources of dislike. One is the move from Ottawa which engendered some league-wide hate, but the other is from Sharks fans who expected a 50 goal snipper. I get tired of the random fan who trolls that crap too because nobody really ever heard what Heatley did or didn't do, or what the Sens did or didn't do to create the mess there. But from the Sharks perspective, many are disappointed because instead of the top line talent carrying a major part of the teams cap, we got a player that is just as inconsistent as Marleau and he's a below average skater who has time and space taken away at oppportune times. Patty at least has wheels and should be a 30 goal scorer every year. Heater? Hard to say.

I tip my hat to him for buying into the system and playing a two-way game at the expense of his scoring (thats a presumption ... the scoring part), but he will need to be much better next year with the salary he's carrying. From that perspective, he is clearly "not worth it."

But to the point of the thread, I'm in agreement with you and several others who think DW can do more damage breaking up the core than adding to it. We have some decisions to make about several players this next year, but when you add Braun and Demers to the competition for defensive roster slots, I don't see a need to trade out a top 6 forward for a top pair defenseman and believe Boyle should and will skate fewer minutes next year with the emergence of others who can step in to special teams roles.

Never say never. I could part with a player for the right one in return, but larely the decisions on player additions will be on role players and bottom pairs/4th line players. Its probably the most set the team has ever been.
I don't usually say never, but I just don't see how Heatley gets traded. DW has never to my knowledge asked a player to waive an NTC/NMC. He would have to find the right trade. Heatley would have to agree to the trade. Those are HUGE barriers when added together.

Now, let's look at the numbers. DW obviously was trying to buy points. I think he met his goal. If it weren't for the injury to Heatley's hand this year, who knows what he would have attained.

On top of that, the next few years is when Heatley pays off for the Sharks from a Payroll perspective. 8M/6M/5M or 6.3 per year. I know people want to keep looking at the CAP and drool over what we could do with the space, but it's not the only way it will be looked at.

Here are the numbers compared to Milan and Cheech with Marleau as a barometer.

Marleau 164 81 75 156 +19 PPG .951
Heatley 162 65 81 146 +22 PPG .901

2008 Marleau = 19G / 48P
2008 Michalek + Cheechoo = 47G / 92P

2009 Marleau = 38G / 71P
2009 Michalek + Cheechoo = 35G / 86P

2010 Marleau = 44G / 83P
2010 Heatley = 39G / 82P

2011 Marleau = 37G/ 73P
2011 Heatley = 26G / 64P


The playoffs are another story, however I'll give him the benefit of unjuries+slump if you like, but it was obvious to me he was struggling. The year before was nothing to write home about for the whole Burger line.

2010 PO's
-----------------------------
Marleau 14 8 5 13 -3
Heatley 14 2 11 13 -7
Thornton 15 3 9 12 -11

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Last edited by Led Zappa: 05-31-2011 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old
05-31-2011, 01:01 PM
  #81
ramstoria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
To me, the obvious one to explore is Brent Burns, as has been suggested. Why?

26 years old, minute eater, size, production, some physicality, great shot. Add to that, Minnesota is seriously lacking something offensively which makes the potential exist as trading partners. We'd have to give something significant but wouldn't he look great in Teal?

What we would have to give up though is anyone's guess. To me it starts with Pavelski, and while the thought turns my stomach, he's the kind of asset that would help get it done. With Couture's emergence, I'd make him our second line pivot full time and make this deal. Might not be popular, but it's where I'm at. I agree we need 3 good lines but if your top 6 forwards (Clowe, Heatley, Pavelski, Setoguchi, Marleau) all take big shifts 'off' during the playoffs, it's a moot point anyway. Let's get 2 lines rolling consistently before we covet 3.

I'd put Shea Weber above him still but frankly I think the asking price will be ludicrous.

That said, I don't expect it would happen. So I'm pinning my hopes in the 'no' camp to bring in Pitkanen. By no means as good an option as Burns, but he would bring some quality that we sorely miss.
i would trade pavelski for burns in we signed burns long term. giving up such a big asset for a player who is gone after a season would be very disappointing.


if we were going to move a forward for a dman, id prefer it would be heatley. but that seems difficult to impossible. i actually think the most likely candidate would be trading Setos rights and maybe a prospect and pick along with him.

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Old
05-31-2011, 01:27 PM
  #82
SJeasy
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LZ,
You are making a point that is borne out by a lot of the unbalanced trades where prospects aren't involved. 2for1's and 3for1's. Very frequently the points swap is a almost a wash. Go back to the JT trade itself. It almost has to be part of the calc in the GMs office. The reasoning on the for the GM getting the lesser number in return has to at least be in part that they have a prospect ready to fill the empty role that is opened up and anything from that filler is gravy.

For purposes of retroactive analysis, I like to use the effect of the player move on goal differential if possible. If not, use goal differential for the sum total of all player moves for the season. You did that very well with the White acquisition. We may quibble on whether it was White himself or whether it was addressing an issue of coach handling of player management and selection, but the net effect of the White move was very positive.

You can use playoff rounds over goal differential but I think goal differential is a bit more accurate and correlative.

You also made a good point on real salary vs cap hit. Before this year, the Sharks were strong on moving players before the higher $ years of their contract hit. In Heatley's case this is reversed and it is especially noteworthy that DW stuck Murray with 1/2 of Heatley's first year of pay when the trade was made. The Sharks don't have the revs that Philly and the Rangers have and real $ count.

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