HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Hamilton II: The City, The League, and The Coliseum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-23-2011, 03:10 PM
  #101
Elever
Hth
 
Elever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,481
vCash: 500
I bet that if Hamilton gets a team, it would be still cheaper for my to pay a GO Bus fare and get food and tickets to a Hamilton game than a Leafs game even though where I live (Mississauga) is closer to the ACC than Hamilton. I just hope that when they do get a team, they take it into consideration and connect the team to the GTA by having the arena near the GO Bus terminal.

So Hamilton's 500 something k population plus the population of Oakville, Mississauga, Guelph, etc would make it bigger than Winnipeg and it would take less than an hour by go bus to get from downtown Toronto to Hamilton.

Elever is offline  
Old
05-23-2011, 03:32 PM
  #102
wjhl2009fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,043
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
This idea that Hamilton wouldn't be a slam dunk for a NHL team is downright silly.

The Leafs have the hockey mad 8 million person Southern Ontario market all to themselves. Arguably that market could sustain 4 NHL teams. The NHL is seriously hurting revenues by leaving this market under served. And they probably know this. I would shocked not to see at least one additional NHL team in that market in the next 5 years.
There is no question there are alot of nhl fans but to say every person that lives in the area is a huge hockey fan sure there is alot all 8 million i highly doubt it.


Last edited by wjhl2009fan: 05-23-2011 at 07:30 PM.
wjhl2009fan is offline  
Old
05-23-2011, 03:40 PM
  #103
dronald
Registered User
 
dronald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Hamilton, ON
Posts: 1,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuietCompany View Post
So Hamilton's 500 something k population plus the population of Oakville, Mississauga, Guelph, etc would make it bigger than Winnipeg and it would take less than an hour by go bus to get from downtown Toronto to Hamilton.
You have the right idea, but you're missing about 15 other cities that are close to Hamilton that would make a team here an instant success.

dronald is offline  
Old
05-23-2011, 04:22 PM
  #104
JMROWE
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 931
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan574 View Post
interesting read from a article last year heres a snippet .



http://revitalizedowntown.ca/katz-gr...s-in-hamilton/

Hamilton market becoming one the most active Sports and Entertainment markets in the region? State of the art Venue ? ....hmm....... with the Bulldogs as the main tenant? Wow

Note:The President of AEG Tim Leiweke Is also Chairman of the NHL Expansion & Relocation committee.
Your right Hamilton is the toped city ranked city in Ontariro in which to invest in with already a billion dollars in buliding pe &rmits already issued by the city already this year . That is why Daryl Katz & AEG. want to buy the city run company hecfi because Hamilton market is hot right the iron is hot & as what they have planed other than bringing NHL team to Hamilton is what I herd last year is they want to build a huge entertainment complex downtown near the west harbour that might include a new NHL. sized arena but what I do know AEG. really wants the Hamilton entertainment market bad because there main compition in Livenation runs all the entertainment facilites in Toronto & there is huge money to be made here in Hamilton .

JMROWE is offline  
Old
05-23-2011, 04:25 PM
  #105
The Kremelin Wall*
the krEMELIN wall
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,769
vCash: 500
hgjy

The Kremelin Wall* is offline  
Old
05-23-2011, 04:37 PM
  #106
No Fun Shogun
Global Moderator
34-38-61-10-13
 
No Fun Shogun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Shogunate of Nofunia
Country: Fiji
Posts: 27,837
vCash: 128
I'd still like to see proof of the NHL promising a team to Hamilton. I'm not saying that a promise wasn't made, but a poster or two have brought it up several times and have yet to provide any substantive evidence. Is there a legal document? A press release announcing the promise? A newspaper article about the NHL and a Hamilton party reaching an agreement?

No Fun Shogun is offline  
Old
05-23-2011, 04:50 PM
  #107
JMROWE
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 931
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
I'd still like to see proof of the NHL promising a team to Hamilton. I'm not saying that a promise wasn't made, but a poster or two have brought it up several times and have yet to provide any substantive evidence. Is there a legal document? A press release announcing the promise? A newspaper article about the NHL and a Hamilton party reaching an agreement?
The promise was made in the early 80's before Copps was built that if they where to build an a new arena that Hamilton would be granted an expansion team but I guess that promise was made with consulting Ballard & Knox .

JMROWE is offline  
Old
05-23-2011, 04:55 PM
  #108
Bryan574
RON PAUL 2012
 
Bryan574's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Hamilton,ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
I'd still like to see proof of the NHL promising a team to Hamilton. I'm not saying that a promise wasn't made, but a poster or two have brought it up several times and have yet to provide any substantive evidence. Is there a legal document? A press release announcing the promise? A newspaper article about the NHL and a Hamilton party reaching an agreement?
of course their isn't a publicly known agreement between the NHL and the city of Hamilton just like their isn't anywhere else, that being said I think my last post suggests their may be something going on behind the scenes which is how the NHL likes to do business.


Last edited by Bryan574: 05-23-2011 at 05:06 PM.
Bryan574 is offline  
Old
05-23-2011, 05:03 PM
  #109
JMROWE
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 931
vCash: 500
Did You Hamilton had every thing in place to bring the Colorado Rockies to Hamilton but we had complete moron for a mayor in William Powell who did not like backroom deals so he reject them from comming to Hamilton insted they went New jersey where became the devils & won 3 stanley cups & Hamilton still remains without an NHL. team I hope that moron is rotting in hell with both Ballard & Knox right now .

JMROWE is offline  
Old
05-23-2011, 05:53 PM
  #110
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
I'd still like to see proof of the NHL promising a team to Hamilton. I'm not saying that a promise wasn't made, but a poster or two have brought it up several times and have yet to provide any substantive evidence. Is there a legal document? A press release announcing the promise? A newspaper article about the NHL and a Hamilton party reaching an agreement?
No such proof exists. I have a very hard time, like you, believing any such promise was ever made. I mean really. Consider the time-frame here. Harold Ballard was at the height of his destructive best late 70's early 80's when Hamilton was planning to build. Buffalo was coming down from its salad days with the French Connection line & were re-building. The WHA was on its last legs, absorbed in 79-80. The main proponent of the NHL bid was Ron Joyce. I have found no record anywhere that he was "promised" anything, in fact quite the reverse, he was told in no uncertain terms it wasnt going to happen so he refused to lay down the non-refundable deposit the NHL at the time required.. I think its important to be honest about things in order to understand historically what went wrong so you dont repeat mistakes of the past. Copps' was certainly built with the intention to house an NHL franchise however it wasnt "guaranteed or promised" hence its multi-purpose design.

Killion is offline  
Old
05-24-2011, 12:02 AM
  #111
blueandgoldguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Greg's River Heights
Posts: 1,717
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
No such proof exists. I have a very hard time, like you, believing any such promise was ever made. I mean really. Consider the time-frame here. Harold Ballard was at the height of his destructive best late 70's early 80's when Hamilton was planning to build. Buffalo was coming down from its salad days with the French Connection line & were re-building. The WHA was on its last legs, absorbed in 79-80. The main proponent of the NHL bid was Ron Joyce. I have found no record anywhere that he was "promised" anything, in fact quite the reverse, he was told in no uncertain terms it wasnt going to happen so he refused to lay down the non-refundable deposit the NHL at the time required.. I think its important to be honest about things in order to understand historically what went wrong so you dont repeat mistakes of the past. Copps' was certainly built with the intention to house an NHL franchise however it wasnt "guaranteed or promised" hence its multi-purpose design.
Thank-you. Nice to see something objective....not some made-up garbage claiming a team was "promised" to Hamilton.

blueandgoldguy is offline  
Old
05-24-2011, 01:34 PM
  #112
Ryan34222
Registered User
 
Ryan34222's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
No such proof exists. I have a very hard time, like you, believing any such promise was ever made. I mean really. Consider the time-frame here. Harold Ballard was at the height of his destructive best late 70's early 80's when Hamilton was planning to build. Buffalo was coming down from its salad days with the French Connection line & were re-building. The WHA was on its last legs, absorbed in 79-80. The main proponent of the NHL bid was Ron Joyce. I have found no record anywhere that he was "promised" anything, in fact quite the reverse, he was told in no uncertain terms it wasnt going to happen so he refused to lay down the non-refundable deposit the NHL at the time required.. I think its important to be honest about things in order to understand historically what went wrong so you dont repeat mistakes of the past. Copps' was certainly built with the intention to house an NHL franchise however it wasnt "guaranteed or promised" hence its multi-purpose design.
and a NBA team.. hmm isnt there somebody looking to sell both a basketball and Hockey team? is there territory rights in the NBA too?

Ryan34222 is offline  
Old
05-24-2011, 01:53 PM
  #113
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
and a NBA team.. hmm isnt there somebody looking to sell both a basketball and Hockey team? is there territory rights in the NBA too?
Im not sure how it works in the NBA (see LA). But ya, it'll be interesting to see how the MLSE sale pans out. Often in these situations the incoming owner parcels off a piece or three. Beyond the Leafs & the ACC itself, I could see someone selling off the Marlies, possibly but not likely the Raptors, TFC, then you'd have a new whole dynamic at play in terms of relationships & possible team movement.

Killion is offline  
Old
05-24-2011, 02:26 PM
  #114
kdb209
Global Moderator
 
kdb209's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,591
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
and a NBA team.. hmm isnt there somebody looking to sell both a basketball and Hockey team? is there territory rights in the NBA too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Im not sure how it works in the NBA (see LA). But ya, it'll be interesting to see how the MLSE sale pans out. Often in these situations the incoming owner parcels off a piece or three. Beyond the Leafs & the ACC itself, I could see someone selling off the Marlies, possibly but not likely the Raptors, TFC, then you'd have a new whole dynamic at play in terms of relationships & possible team movement.
More than you probably cared to know - but C & P from the Sacto Kings to Anaheim thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Can the Maloofs move the team without the NBA's approval, a la Davis and his battle with the NFL? (Can the Lakers and Clippers claim Anaheim as their territory?)
Not without litigation.

Set the Wayback Machine to 1984 and the San Diego Clippers - NBA et al v SDC Basketball Club and LA Memorial Coliseum Commission.

In the wake of the Raiders I decision, the Clippers announced they were moving to Los Angeles (LA Memorial Sports Arena). The restrictions in the NBA Constitution (Article 9) at the time were similar to those in the NFL at the time of Raiders, and were subsequently amended in the wake of Raiders I & II (Article 9A).

The NBA brought suit and a US District Court granted a summary judgment in favor of the Clippers without a trial - allowing the team to move to LA for the '84-'85 season.

The NBA appealed to the Ninth Circuit which overturned the District Court decision and returned the case back to District Court for trial - relocation restrictions are not anti trust violations per se, but must be subject to trial to determine if they are reasonable.

The NBA and the Clippers then settled out of court and the Clippers paid the Lakers $5.5M in territorial indemnification fees.

I've not seen a copy of the NBA Constitution - so I can't comment on the specifics of the post-Raiders Article 9A - but given the similar changes made to the NHL constitution I'd guess that it removed any blanket veto and requires league approval (possibly with a supermajority).

Given that any move from Sacto to Anaheim would fall under the Ninth Circuit - I can't see a move being permitted until after a trial in District Court rules on the Article 9A restrictions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Why? The legal side seems to say it's okay but that an indemnification fee had to be paid.
Not really - the legal side says that any restrictions have to judged at trial (on a case-by-case basis) as to whether they are reasonable or not. The Ninth Circuit ruled in Raiders (and re-affirmed in SDC) that relocation restrictions are not per se violations of anti trust law.

The indemnification is only relevant in that it would be a condition of the League granting approval.

Until the NBAs restrictions are overturned in court - they would effectively block any relocation without League approval.

Quote:
Why would the NBA settle out of court?
Because at the time of the decision, the Clippers had already been playing in LA for 2+ years (making unwinding the transaction pretty difficult), the Lakers agreed to the territorial fee, and the Clippers agreed in writing that the League's restrictions were in force.

It was probably in the NBA's best interest to keep their restrictions out of court (presenting a higher burden for a future Al Davis) rather than risking them being rejected in court (and face future Bob Irsays).

The ironic thing is, that at the time of the move the Lakers had waived their rights under Article 9 (for nothing), but the NBA still opposed the move.

kdb209 is offline  
Old
05-24-2011, 03:21 PM
  #115
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
More than you probably cared to know - but C & P from the Sacto Kings to Anaheim thread:
Thanks kdb. Ya, plenty more than Id care to know but short-succinct enough to be considered a ReadersDigest version.

Killion is offline  
Old
05-24-2011, 08:26 PM
  #116
Hamilton Tigers
Registered User
 
Hamilton Tigers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,294
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
Here is an update on the possible Katz/Copps deal and the fallout from the 'breakfast' meeting...

Report on meeting coming



I'm not sure what the report could possibly say since no one at the 'breakfast' has even be interviewed. I doubt that the city council will even take it seriously if it comes out as a condemnation of the meeting.

And, despite my theory that the Katz proposal might have simply been put aside and forgotten...



Obviously it's still on. I suspect the on-going audit of HECFI is delaying the deal, and that we might see a tendering of proposals for privatization of all of HECFI once audit is done.

Summer by the time we know what is going on?
Here's the latest. No real NHL news.

Integrity boss canít rule on NHL meeting

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...on-nhl-meeting

Hamilton Tigers is offline  
Old
05-24-2011, 09:11 PM
  #117
Confucius
Registered User
 
Confucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,784
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
There is no question there are alot of nhl fans but to say every person that lives in the area is a huge hockey fan sure there is alot all 8 million i highly doubt it.
Well if they're not all fans the league can GROW the game there.......

Confucius is offline  
Old
05-24-2011, 11:15 PM
  #118
Evil Doctor
89 years later...
 
Evil Doctor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Here's the latest. No real NHL news.

Integrity boss canít rule on NHL meeting

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...on-nhl-meeting
Good work HT. I had one eye on The Biggest Loser finale (won by Olivia btw), the other eye on the Western Conference final (San Jose is leading 2-1...boooo) and both ears on the Hamilton/Houston Game 7 (won by Houston 4-3...boooo), I hadn't seen the Spec update yet.

Doesn't seem like anything is going to come of it, but you never know...

Evil Doctor is offline  
Old
05-31-2011, 08:15 PM
  #119
Stanley Foobrick
Clockwork Blue
 
Stanley Foobrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Fooville, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,821
vCash: 500
Now that Winnipeg has it's team is the Hamilton talk going to re-fire?

Gabe Macaluso, formerally in charge of HECFI, the people that run Copps and other entertainment venues in Hamilton, has told all what needs to happen if Hamilton is to ever get a team.

Gabe says he was told by the NHL, I believe it was Bettman but not 100%, that if Hamilton wanted an NHL team he'd better come walking down the aisle with Toronto on his right and Buffalo on his left.

Many people choose to believe that the territorial rights clause in the NHL constitution isn't legal....... they might be right about the legalities but it's still in play today.

Stanley Foobrick is offline  
Old
05-31-2011, 08:18 PM
  #120
dronald
Registered User
 
dronald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Hamilton, ON
Posts: 1,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
Now that Winnipeg has it's team is the Hamilton talk going to re-fire?

Gabe Macaluso, formerally in charge of HECFI, the people that run Copps and other entertainment venues in Hamilton, has told all what needs to happen if Hamilton is to ever get a team.

Gabe says he was told by the NHL, I believe it was Bettman but not 100%, that if Hamilton wanted an NHL team he'd better come walking down the aisle with Toronto on his right and Buffalo on his left.

Many people choose to believe that the territorial rights clause in the NHL constitution isn't legal....... they might be right about the legalities but it's still in play today.
Perhaps, but the only way Hamilton will get a franchise is if two others fold... And it will be a very long time before the NHL lets two more go down the gutter, can you imagine how that's going to look on the NHL?

dronald is offline  
Old
05-31-2011, 08:21 PM
  #121
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 56,803
vCash: 500
It's always been the case for Hamilton... They have to have agreement with both Toronto and Buffalo.

What that **likely** means is an agreed amount (each team) for territory indemnification.

Regardless of veto, it's unlikely the requisite # of teams would vote for expansion/relocation into another team's territory without the governor of that effected team saying they are willing to share (in exchange for the territory indemnification fee).

That likely means tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in indemnification fees (on top of purchase/relocation or expansion price and other expenses for arena work).

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
05-31-2011, 08:23 PM
  #122
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dronald View Post
And it will be a very long time before the NHL lets two more go down the gutter, can you imagine how that's going to look on the NHL?
Too late for that sentiment dronald. Its already happening. Phoenix & Atlanta are just the tip of the iceberg, and no other jurisdiction in North America will be as "giving" as those you'll find in Arizona. Hamilton will wind up with a franchise yet.

Killion is offline  
Old
05-31-2011, 08:27 PM
  #123
dronald
Registered User
 
dronald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Hamilton, ON
Posts: 1,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Too late for that sentiment dronald. Its already happening. Phoenix & Atlanta are just the tip of the iceberg, and no other jurisdiction in North America will be as "giving" as those you'll find in Arizona.
I sort of thought maybe that way of thinking might be correct until I saw Bettmans face today. You can tell he really hates the idea of teams going to Canada, I know it's been said before, but today confirmed it.

So even if QC gets the Coyotes next year (and it's really not guarenteed) that may put Hamilton next in line. If it does put Hamilton next, then you have to think of all the obstacles Bettman will put up just to stop it.

Do I think putting a team in Hamilton would be smart? Oh yes... yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Does it mean it will be happening in the next 5-7 years? Really doubt it mate. Try 10-15 years.

dronald is offline  
Old
05-31-2011, 08:39 PM
  #124
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,414
vCash: 500
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...hings-to-come/


Boom Here we go.

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
05-31-2011, 08:42 PM
  #125
dronald
Registered User
 
dronald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Hamilton, ON
Posts: 1,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post

dronald is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:32 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.