HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Felix Potvin

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-26-2011, 01:34 PM
  #1
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,075
vCash: 500
Felix Potvin

Surely someone here knows why Felix Potvin was not drafted in 1989. I don't recall anything specific myself and google has been no help.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 03:18 PM
  #2
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,953
vCash: 500
Weak Team

Played on a non-playoff team. Bit of a late bloomer. Into junior and somewhat in the NHL there was a stiffness or lack of fluidity to his movements.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 08:40 PM
  #3
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 25,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Played on a non-playoff team. Bit of a late bloomer. Into junior and somewhat in the NHL there was a stiffness or lack of fluidity to his movements.
Huh?. Felix Potvin?. He led the QMJHL with Chicoutimi in shutouts over his 3 seasons; was a 2nd & 1st Team All Star; A Memorial Cup All Star & won the Hap Emms (i think thats what its called); was drafted by the Toronto Maple Leafs. I find the HHOF player search section edifying & reliable, or, are they completely mistaken?.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 09:10 PM
  #4
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 34,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Played on a non-playoff team. Bit of a late bloomer. Into junior and somewhat in the NHL there was a stiffness or lack of fluidity to his movements.
Was he a late bloomer? If anything his career started off like a rocket and fizzled out somewhat. For a guy known for his reflexes and nicknamed "The Cat" he wasn't stiff and fluidity was not an issue. I recall that he wasn't selected in the 1989 draft because 18 year olds had to be drafted in the first three rounds. Since his junior numbers with Chicoutimi were not amazing that year, he was bypassed early. By the end of his junior career he was a WJC team member, a Memorial Cup star, QMJHL champion, a AHL rookie of the year, etc.

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 09:29 PM
  #5
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 25,079
vCash: 500
The HockeyDatabase has him being taken by the Leafs in the 2nd Round, 1990.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 09:30 PM
  #6
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,953
vCash: 500
1989 Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Huh?. Felix Potvin?. He led the QMJHL with Chicoutimi in shutouts over his 3 seasons; was a 2nd & 1st Team All Star; A Memorial Cup All Star & won the Hap Emms (i think thats what its called); was drafted by the Toronto Maple Leafs. I find the HHOF player search section edifying & reliable, or, are they completely mistaken?.
Felix Potvin was not drafted in his first year of entry draft eligibility. It was also his first year in the Q. Basically he was on a non-playoff team his first year in the QMJHL. His GAA was near 5.00 and had a number of incomplete games where he would be replaced. He was far from a fluid goalie

As for being a late bloomer, he was a late in his one year of Midget AAA at 16/17, most promising goalies will be early in Midget AAA at age 15/16 then will have two maybe three years in the Q before being drafted.

His Memorial Cup season with all the listed honours was as an overage 20 year old.Likewise all the other honours you mention were post 1989 entry draft and helped get him drafted as a 19 year old. Comparison would be Patrick Roy who as a 19 year old out of junior led an AHL team to the Calder and as a 20 year old led the Canadiens to a Stanley Cup. So Felix Potvin profiles as a late bloomer.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 09:49 PM
  #7
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 25,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
As for being a late bloomer, he was a late in his one year of Midget AAA at 16/17, most promising goalies will be early in Midget AAA at age 15/16 then will have two maybe three years in the Q before being drafted.
Yes, I see your point. A late bloomer from Midget AAA to Jr. A brief superb couple three seasons with Toronto eclipsed when Joseph was signed, slowly fading thereafter. The OP assumed he hadnt been drafted at all as he may have been looking exclusively at the Class of 89, forgetting that players can gain re-entry if not selected.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 10:06 PM
  #8
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,953
vCash: 500
Jimmy Waite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yes, I see your point. A late bloomer from Midget AAA to Jr. A brief superb couple three seasons with Toronto eclipsed when Joseph was signed, slowly fading thereafter. The OP assumed he hadnt been drafted at all as he may have been looking exclusively at the Class of 89, forgetting that players can gain re-entry if not selected.
There is a bit more to the 1988-89 season that Felix Potvin had in Chicoutimi. The previous Chicoutimi goalie was Jimmy Waite:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...waiteji01.html

From the link you can see that he was a high draft pick who made the Hawks as an underager playing a bit for Mike Keenan - not ideal but........

When Waite was not returned to his junior team, Chicoutimi was stuck and turned to Potvin who was seen as a back-up who might play a handful of games and another kid they found in Ontario. A definite playoff team floundered. but Potvin got that one chance that many do not and eventually made the most of it.

Aside: reflexes, stiffness and fluidity are three different concepts. Potvin used his reflexes because he could not get across or move as easily as other goalies. M.A Fleury has great reflexes but he is also much more flexible and does not have any herky-jerky movements in his game.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 10:15 PM
  #9
vadim sharifijanov
Rrbata
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
There is a bit more to the 1988-89 season that Felix Potvin had in Chicoutimi. The previous Chicoutimi goalie was Jimmy Waite:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...waiteji01.html

From the link you can see that he was a high draft pick who made the Hawks as an underager playing a bit for Mike Keenan - not ideal but........

When Waite was not returned to his junior team, Chicoutimi was stuck and turned to Potvin who was seen as a back-up who might play a handful of games and another kid they found in Ontario. A definite playoff team floundered. but Potvin got that one chance that many do not and eventually made the most of it.

Aside: reflexes, stiffness and fluidity are three different concepts. Potvin used his reflexes because he could not get across or move as easily as other goalies. M.A Fleury has great reflexes but he is also much more flexible and does not have any herky-jerky movements in his game.
that chicoutimi team had some firepower, led by stephane morin. he turned out to be an AHL/IHL legend that could never consistently crack the canucks, though he did put up some impressive numbers for a rookie in half a season with an awful nords team the year they finished last and drafted lindros. sadly, he died of a heart attack in the late 90s, before the age of 30.

but i digress, they had the CHL's leading scorer and still didn't make the playoffs. couldn't have looked good for the kid between the pipes.

also, didn't they have a rule back then where an 18 year old could only be drafted in the first three rounds unless he played in a pro league (like bure supposedly did)?

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 10:48 PM
  #10
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,953
vCash: 500
Stephane Morin

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
that chicoutimi team had some firepower, led by stephane morin. he turned out to be an AHL/IHL legend that could never consistently crack the canucks, though he did put up some impressive numbers for a rookie in half a season with an awful nords team the year they finished last and drafted lindros. sadly, he died of a heart attack in the late 90s, before the age of 30.

but i digress, they had the CHL's leading scorer and still didn't make the playoffs. couldn't have looked good for the kid between the pipes.

also, didn't they have a rule back then where an 18 year old could only be drafted in the first three rounds unless he played in a pro league (like bure supposedly did)?
From memory the 18 year old rule applied to CHL players only. Had the effect of bumping the other 18 year olds from US prep schools etc further down the draft.

Stephane Morin. One of those in between players to good for the AHL yet not good enough for the NHL, Somewhat frail at 170-175 lbs, he would wear down over the course of an NHL season.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 10:59 PM
  #11
vadim sharifijanov
Rrbata
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,182
vCash: 500
^ i think it might also have applied to european players, unless they had played a certain amount of games in both of the previous two years in a pro league. at least that's what i remember from the bure draft fiasco, where pat quinn and igor larionov allegedly manufactured "evidence" that bure had played exhibition games with the red army as a 16 year old.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 11:36 PM
  #12
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 25,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
There is a bit more to the 1988-89 season that Felix Potvin had in Chicoutimi. The previous Chicoutimi goalie was Jimmy Waite,
Thanks for the link, I had no idea Waite had had such a traveled career. Holy Toldeo. Talk about up, down over & under..... Interesting comparison in (Fleury-Potvin) order to demonstrate the area most lacking in his game; fluidity, or "grace of movement"; expending less energy in a Fleury type as opposed to the more tightly wound & almost desperate (and often spectacular) style of Potvin. Sort of like wee Roger Crozier with Detroit. He was either right on it or right off it. No middle ground. Blooming late was a good thing for that one, right place right time, because that style will burn brightly for only so long before dissipating. Always questioned his skating ability & foot speed. Perhaps had he worked on that, he'd have had a stronger career.


Last edited by Killion: 05-26-2011 at 11:41 PM.
Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2011, 11:42 PM
  #13
Trebek
Mod Supervisor
 
Trebek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
The OP assumed he hadnt been drafted at all as he may have been looking exclusively at the Class of 89, forgetting that players can gain re-entry if not selected.
Iain knows his hockey, and if you don't believe me, do a quick search on The Google.

He didn't assume that Potvin wasn't drafted at all, and it takes a generous reading of what he wrote to imply that.

Trebek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2011, 12:01 AM
  #14
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,953
vCash: 500
Jimmy Waite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Thanks for the link, I had no idea Waite had had such a traveled career. Holy Toldeo. Talk about up, down over & under..... Interesting comparison in (Fleury-Potvin) order to demonstrate the area most lacking in his game; fluidity, or "grace of movement"; expending less energy in a Fleury type as opposed to the more tightly wound & almost desperate (and often spectacular) style of Potvin. Sort of like wee Roger Crozier with Detroit. He was either right on it or right off it. No middle ground. Blooming late was a good thing for that one, right place right time, because that style will burn brightly for only so long before dissipating. Always questioned his skating ability & foot speed. Perhaps had he worked on that, he'd have had a stronger career.
Jimmy Waite was one of those goalies who never filled out physically 6' 1" is accurate but 180 lbs is very generous. More in the 160-165 lb range.

The Crozier analogy is very apt although Crozier started his career in the pre mask era and like many goalies from that era tended to play back on his heels a bit.

There was an old QMJHL scout who used to talk to the groupies to learn if the goalies he was watching were good dancers.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2011, 12:32 AM
  #15
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 25,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Surely someone here knows why Felix Potvin was not drafted in 1989.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Iain knows his hockey...
My apologies. I read it as "he wasnt drafted in 1989" without picking up on Iains subtle text, assuming he meant he wasnt drafted at all. Put another way, "how come he was passed over in 89 & drafted in 90"?. See where I went wrong there?. I took it literally & assumed. Hard to keep up with you guys sometimes.


Last edited by Killion: 05-27-2011 at 12:54 AM.
Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2011, 11:41 AM
  #16
Eisen
Registered User
 
Eisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Eugene
Country: United States
Posts: 7,651
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
My apologies. I read it as "he wasnt drafted in 1989" without picking up on Iains subtle text, assuming he meant he wasnt drafted at all. Put another way, "how come he was passed over in 89 & drafted in 90"?. See where I went wrong there?. I took it literally & assumed. Hard to keep up with you guys sometimes.
me too^^

Eisen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2011, 07:12 PM
  #17
MS
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 14,852
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
also, didn't they have a rule back then where an 18 year old could only be drafted in the first three rounds unless he played in a pro league (like bure supposedly did)?
I seem to recall that the 1990 THN Draft Preview, in their little profile on Potvin, mentioned this as the reason he wasnt picked in 1989.

I still have that preview somewhere but have no idea where so not 100% certain, but I believe that was the reason.

Just checked hockeydb.com and there were no 1971-born CHL players taken in the 4th round of the 1989 draft, so the evidence would seem to back it up.

MS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2011, 06:58 PM
  #18
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Iain knows his hockey, and if you don't believe me, do a quick search on The Google.

He didn't assume that Potvin wasn't drafted at all, and it takes a generous reading of what he wrote to imply that.
This is it. The first-three-rounds things mentioned above seems to be the culprit. Seems I need to do a little more reading.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2011, 02:58 PM
  #19
Ferjo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 230
vCash: 500
It seems to have been solved, but here is a passage from Dick Irvins's book "In the Crease". Potvin says this.

"After my first year of junior everyone said I was going to be drafted, even though I was only 18. So I went down to Minnesota and I sat there and didn't get drafted. I didn't have to sit there all day because my name was onl up for the first three rounds, but they were pretty long rounds. That was a terrible feeling, the worst feeling. After that I said I didn't care who picks me next time just as long as I get picked. When I was drafted by Toronto the next year I was happy because it's a great hockey town."

Ferjo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2011, 04:59 PM
  #20
Trebek
Mod Supervisor
 
Trebek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,735
vCash: 500
Good find - surprising that I have two copies of Irvin's book, but couldn't remember that passage in either.

Trebek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2011, 08:00 PM
  #21
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,075
vCash: 500
Apparently 18-year-olds could be drafted in the later rounds if they met certain criteria, but I have had absolutely no luck in finding the details of said criteria.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2011, 03:28 AM
  #22
MS
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 14,852
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Apparently 18-year-olds could be drafted in the later rounds if they met certain criteria, but I have had absolutely no luck in finding the details of said criteria.
It really is a weird rule.

For Europeans, they were eligible in all 12 rounds if they'd played a certain number of professional league games - this was the crux of the Pavel Bure Canucks/NHL dispute.

There don't appear to be any restrictions at all on the drafting of US players ... for example, Derek Plante was a 1971-born player drafted straight out of USHS in the 8th round.

MS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:12 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.