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Top 10 European defensemen

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05-31-2011, 01:06 AM
  #76
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Poor Numminen ... so under-rated his whole career, then finally gets a bit of the respect he deserves right at the end of his time in Phoenix, but then as soon as he retires everyone forgets how good he was again.
He easily could have won the Norris in '98, I wonder how different he'd be remembered...

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05-31-2011, 01:59 AM
  #77
Canadiens1958
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Teppo Nummenin

I appreciate the contribution of RHS d-men but realistically Teppo Nummenin vs contemporaries(other RHS NHL d-men) over a 10 year stretch that covers his best years comes in around the Eric Desjardins level:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_played

If that is Top 10 European then Europe is in trouble when producing d-men. Nummenin on a team that appreciated a RHS d-man was a very solid contributer, effective against strong left wingers and very efficient at getting the puck out of his zone. He also brought a level of offense but so did Eric Desjardins and no one is crying about Desjardins being jobbed in Norris voting. He wasn't and neither was Teppo Nummenin.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 05-31-2011 at 02:01 AM. Reason: Clarification
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05-31-2011, 05:10 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
I appreciate the contribution of RHS d-men but realistically Teppo Nummenin vs contemporaries(other RHS NHL d-men) over a 10 year stretch that covers his best years comes in around the Eric Desjardins level:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_played

If that is Top 10 European then Europe is in trouble when producing d-men. Nummenin on a team that appreciated a RHS d-man was a very solid contributer, effective against strong left wingers and very efficient at getting the puck out of his zone. He also brought a level of offense but so did Eric Desjardins and no one is crying about Desjardins being jobbed in Norris voting. He wasn't and neither was Teppo Nummenin.
Thank you for helping make my point for me.

I agree completely that Eric Desjardins and Teppo Numminen are nearly identical-level hockey players, at both ends of the rink.

Eric Desjardins was top-5 in Norris voting twice. No kidding he wasn't jobbed.

Numminen never got that level of respect despite a near-identical level of play.

In 1998, as Nalyd mentioned above, he was better than the vastly over-rated player who took the Norris.

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05-31-2011, 05:29 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
Thank you for helping make my point for me.

I agree completely that Eric Desjardins and Teppo Numminen are nearly identical-level hockey players, at both ends of the rink.

Eric Desjardins was top-5 in Norris voting twice. No kidding he wasn't jobbed.

Numminen never got that level of respect despite a near-identical level of play.

In 1998, as Nalyd mentioned above, he was better than the vastly over-rated player who took the Norris.
IIRC there were two favourites in the Norris voting that year: Blake (winner) and Lidstrom. IMHO Blake was very weak Norris winner and if someone was robbed it was definetly Lidstrom.

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05-31-2011, 05:44 AM
  #80
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IIRC there were two favourites in the Norris voting that year: Blake (winner) and Lidstrom. IMHO Blake was very weak Norris winner and if someone was robbed it was definetly Lidstrom.
While that may have been the case in the medias eyes, it was a wide open field and Numminen was great that year. Playing in a big market he at least would have been on the same tier as Blake and Lidstrom.

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05-31-2011, 05:54 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
While that may have been the case in the medias eyes, it was a wide open field and Numminen was great that year. Playing in a big market he at least would have been on the same tier as Blake and Lidstrom.
Exactly - I would have had Lidstrom as the winner, but Numminen should have been right there that year. Best player by a mile on an otherwise garbage Phoenix team to lead them to the playoffs.

The rest of the Coyote blueline that season was expansion calibre.

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05-31-2011, 06:09 AM
  #82
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Both of you are right, I remember big hype around Blake at those times and just a brief look at the stats shows how good Numminen was on that terrible expansion team.

Do anyone has a Norris voting list of that year?

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05-31-2011, 06:15 AM
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Both of you are right, I remember big hype around Blake at those times and just a brief look at the stats shows how good Numminen was on that terrible expansion team.

Do anyone has a Norris voting list of that year?
Voting lists for most awards through history are stickied in this section.

NORRIS: Rob Blake 401 (27-12-8-2-1); Nicklas Lidstrom 369 (15-22-10-5-0); Chris Pronger 316 (8-15-23-5-1); Scott Stevens 84 (3-2-2-9-3); Scott Niedermayer 58 (0-0-3-10-13); Larry Murphy 47 (1-0-3-5-7); Ray Bourque 37 (0-1-3-2-9); Al MacInnis 26 (0-1-1-4-2); Sergei Zubov 22 (0-1-0-3-6); Teppo Numminen 22 (0-0-1-3-8); Darryl Sydor 6 (0-0-0-2-0); Chris Chelios 3 (0-0-0-1-0); Kenny Jonsson 3 (0-0-0-1-0); Darius Kasparaitis 3 (0-0-0-1-0); Alexei Zhitnik 3 (0-0-0-1-0); Eric Desjardins 1 (0-0-0-0-1); Kevin Hatcher 1 (0-0-0-0-1); Calle Johansson 1 (0-0-0-0-1); Boris Mironov 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

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05-31-2011, 06:43 AM
  #84
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i have only heard from NJ fans that kasatonov was better in the NHL than fetisov. fetisov was not an especially good player in the NHL.


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Konstantinov was basically a Russian Adam Foote only more durable. The two players were nearly identical in terms of style, defensive play, and offensive ability. Konstantinov was a bit more devastating bodychecker.

He was definitely quite a bit better than a guy like Volchenkov, but has gotten quite over-rated due to the tragic circumstances which befell him.

Outstanding player, but when you see him being rated ahead of Chara all time ... people are letting nostalgia get the better of themselves.
konstantinov was clearly more skilled than adam foote, imo, even ignoring the advantages of playing with the rest of the russian 5. more dynamic, better in transition and joined the attack better. i am fairly certain konstantinov was one of the highest scoring d-men at ES in '96 and '97.

i don't know where to find ES stats from that period, but i found this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
It's worth noting that Konstantinov never played on the power play much, despite decent even-strength scoring. If he got power play time, he could have put up much better scoring numbers.

Player Year GP ESG ESA ESP
Konstantinov 1996 81 10 15 25
Konstantinov 1997 77 5 24 29
Lidstrom 1996 81 8 17 25
Lidstrom 1997 79 7 19 26

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06-01-2011, 04:35 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
konstantinov was clearly more skilled than adam foote, imo, even ignoring the advantages of playing with the rest of the russian 5. more dynamic, better in transition and joined the attack better. i am fairly certain konstantinov was one of the highest scoring d-men at ES in '96 and '97.

i don't know where to find ES stats from that period, but i found this post:
The flipside of that is that Konstantinov was always on the ice with the 5-man Russian unit, so always playing with excellent players (ie. Lidstrom was probably getting a ton more shifts with Kirk Maltby).

And he did get 2nd unit PP time those years. And 5-on-5 scoring isn't a good predictor of PP scoring in any case. Willie Mitchell nearly outscored Lidstrom at ES a couple years back, and Steve Montador did this year (or was through about game 75; I didn't check after that).

Foote received similar icetime with a similarly skilled team and put up similar points. I don't see how either player can be considered to have an advantage there.

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06-01-2011, 07:47 AM
  #86
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Top 5

The top 5 separate themselves from the rest rather decisively.

1.) Nicklas Lidstrom simply on longevity gets the nod plus has leadership and grades top notch for virtually all skills.

2.) Viacheslav Fetisov pre 1985 accident the complete package. Afterwards down a level.

3.) Borje Salming. Amongst the best NHL d-men of his era but never the best. Of the pioneering Europeans landed in the most ideal situation. Red Kelly was the ideal coach for him as their styles and skills were a very close match. Playing with three HHOF centers -Keon, Ullman, Sittler helped.

4.) Valeri Vasiliev. Complete game but never played in the NHL so the adaptation question lingers.

5.) Zdeno Chara. Big gap between him and the top 4, closer to the rest. Size covers a few weaknesses especially on offense.

6 - 10.) undecided yet about 15 under consideration all with one basic question, the relation between player and team.

A few deletions. Founder type players - Ragulin, Davydov, Kuzkyn, Suchy etc,. Recognize them for what they contributed to the growth of international hockey in their country but the skills were very basic. The Soviets toured regularly in the 1960's playing games in Montreal against slightly reinforced junior teams. High skilled juniors gave the Soviet d-men a hard time and we are talking fully mature men, prime condition against teenagers. At the same time the Canadiens, sponsorship era, would invite the same juniors to the start of training camp and the fringe NHL d-men - Jean Gauthier, Noel Price would toy with the kids while getting into shape.

The Kasatanov/Fetisov issue in the NHL. Talent wise Fetisov by far. Perceived performance reflects deficient coaching. The Devils until Jacques Lemaire took over were not a well coached organization. Integrating Fetisov's skill set with the varied backgrounds of the Devils was a challenge. An elite to very good coach manages to do it by the end of training camp, at most 10 games into the season. Good /average coach about 1/2 - 2/3 into the season, below average/weak - hopes and prays that things come together knowing that if they do not he is out the door. Devils went thru a lot of coaches until Lemaire.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 06-01-2011 at 07:50 AM. Reason: Wording
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