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2011-2012 Flyers Prospects and Phantoms Discussion Thread

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Old
06-01-2011, 05:40 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerGuy18 View Post
I thought Riopel was signed last summer?
Missed that.

I thought he was signed to a Phantoms' contract, not an ELC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerGuy18 View Post
TSN says Riopel was signed last summer to an ELC

http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=6147

EDIT: It was a AHL deal, don't know how this effects it
I'm pretty sure that he was never signed by the "Flyers."

He was always Flyers property, but he was signed by the Phantoms. Now that his term is up as a prospect per draft rules, I'm not sure what that means.

It's a weird scenario. I'm pretty sure he is not currently under contract with the Flyers.

I don't know whether that leaves him as an RFA (because he was under an AHL contract) or a UFA as is the case with all CHL players like him.

I believe however that if he is not signed he becomes free game.


Last edited by CS: 06-01-2011 at 05:46 PM.
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06-01-2011, 07:49 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by FlyerSithLord View Post
This thread makes me sad. I wish we had at least one prospect to get even a little excited about.
Wait, your aren't excited for Rinaldo? If hfboards hates Carcillo as much as they do, I can't wait till they see him play

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06-01-2011, 08:17 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by 10KeithLeClair25 View Post
Wait, your aren't excited for Rinaldo? If hfboards hates Carcillo as much as they do, I can't wait till they see him play
lol I actually like Carcillo . Not excited at all for Rinaldo, I think he's just going to be out of control and help reinforce all the negative philly stereotypes.

Also, can someone with more knowledge on the situation answer this: How come Eriksson isn't being considered to come over and play for the phantoms? He's 20 isn't he?

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06-01-2011, 09:35 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by FlyerSithLord View Post
lol I actually like Carcillo . Not excited at all for Rinaldo, I think he's just going to be out of control and help reinforce all the negative philly stereotypes.

Also, can someone with more knowledge on the situation answer this: How come Eriksson isn't being considered to come over and play for the phantoms? He's 20 isn't he?
He wants to play one more season in the SEL and get better with the goalie coach over there, then the season after he will probably be the Phantoms' starter.

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06-01-2011, 09:37 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
He wants to play one more season in the SEL and get better with the goalie coach over there, then the season after he will probably be the Phantoms' starter.
We don't know whether he wants at least one more season in the SEL, but that's what the Flyers want definitely. There's absolutely no reason to rush Eriksson.

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06-01-2011, 10:06 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
He wants to play one more season in the SEL and get better with the goalie coach over there, then the season after he will probably be the Phantoms' starter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We don't know whether he wants at least one more season in the SEL, but that's what the Flyers want definitely. There's absolutely no reason to rush Eriksson.
Oh ok, thanks. I would have figured, him coming over and getting 50-60 starts in the AHL and learning the N.A. would benefit him more than staying over there.

Though actually thinking about it, if they Flyers do sign someone, Leighton's probably going to get the bulk of the AHL starts.

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06-01-2011, 10:28 PM
  #32
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Corey Pronman of Hockey Prospectus says Riopel "already turned pro"

http://twitter.com/coreypronman/stat...11835245445120

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06-01-2011, 10:46 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerGuy18 View Post
Corey Pronman of Hockey Prospectus says Riopel "already turned pro"

http://twitter.com/coreypronman/stat...11835245445120
That means he would become a free agent on July 1st.

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06-02-2011, 02:00 AM
  #34
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Someone on the prospect board brought something up. How do we lose Bertilsson because we didnt sign and he goes back into the draft, but with Eriksson we didnt sign him and he is still on our squad?

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06-02-2011, 02:14 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Someone on the prospect board brought something up. How do we lose Bertilsson because we didnt sign and he goes back into the draft, but with Eriksson we didnt sign him and he is still on our squad?
Yeah, I have no idea. Good question, however.

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06-02-2011, 05:52 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Someone on the prospect board brought something up. How do we lose Bertilsson because we didnt sign and he goes back into the draft, but with Eriksson we didnt sign him and he is still on our squad?
I thought about that myself ... [everything that follows is speculation]

Based on previous seasons we should have kept Bertilsson exclusive rights due to the absence of an IIHF-NHL transfer agreement.

The reason we lost his rights but kept Eriksson until today would be that NHL and IIHF (possibly only the Swedish Association) have signed an agreement during the season. If thats the case, we lost Eriksson's exclusive rights as well and he became an UFA yesterday. (If its an IIHF-NHL agreement, the rights to Kovar, Bodrov and Popov as well)

Or, Isaac doesn't has his facts straight, and we kept their rights. Also possible. There isn't any quote of Holmgren or Bertilsson's agent in the article.

Edit: Another thing that crossed my mind after reading what Isaac wrote on twitter. The Flyers may just lost interest in Bertilsson and decided to forfeit the exclusive rights.


Last edited by Rick Deckard: 06-02-2011 at 06:27 AM.
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Old
06-02-2011, 03:54 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Someone on the prospect board brought something up. How do we lose Bertilsson because we didnt sign and he goes back into the draft, but with Eriksson we didnt sign him and he is still on our squad?
Eriksson was drafted at the age of 19.

Bertilsson and Erixon (who was just traded to NYR) were drafted at 18.

Euro rights and draft ages and all that nonsense is a convoluted mess sometimes.

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06-02-2011, 03:57 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Eriksson was drafted at the age of 19.

Bertilsson and Erixon (who was just traded to NYR) were drafted at 18.

Euro rights and draft ages and all that nonsense is a convoluted mess sometimes.
Hmm I dont think that is correct.


08-09 season: 18 turned 19
09-10 season: 19 turned 20
10-11 season: 20 turned 21

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joacim_Eriksson

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06-02-2011, 04:04 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Hmm I dont think that is correct.


08-09 season: 18 turned 19
09-10 season: 19 turned 20
10-11 season: 20 turned 21

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joacim_Eriksson
Tim Erixon - 2/24/91 (currently 20)
Simon Bertilsson - 4/19/91 (currently 20)
Joacim Eriksson - 4/09/90 (currently 21)

So, Bertilsson turned 20 in April meaning he's 20 for the 2011 NHL Entry Draft. That means that 2 years ago, at the 2009 NHL Entry Draft, he had turned 18 in April making him 18 for the Draft in June.

Eriksson had turned 19 that same April that Bertilsson turned 18, making Eriksson 19 at the time he was drafted.

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06-02-2011, 04:31 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Tim Erixon - 2/24/91 (currently 20)
Simon Bertilsson - 4/19/91 (currently 20)
Joacim Eriksson - 4/09/90 (currently 21)

So, Bertilsson turned 20 in April meaning he's 20 for the 2011 NHL Entry Draft. That means that 2 years ago, at the 2009 NHL Entry Draft, he had turned 18 in April making him 18 for the Draft in June.

Eriksson had turned 19 that same April that Bertilsson turned 18, making Eriksson 19 at the time he was drafted.
That is correct. Meaning that, Eriksson would have needed to be re-upted this past summer. We didnt hear anything about that.

But I think it is what Rick said. The Flyers lost interest in Bertilsson and just forfeited his rights.

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06-02-2011, 04:42 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
That is correct. Meaning that, Eriksson would have needed to be re-upted this past summer. We didnt hear anything about that.
Not necessarily. Like I said, be careful when speaking in absolutes when it comes to this stuff unless you are 100% convinced you are right. A lot of it is so awkward and dynamic that it's hard to get a grasp on what's going on in many scenarios.

I know that you are wrong about Eriksson needing to be re-upped last year because we are guaranteed the rights of all drafted players for 2 years. So Eriksson, when he turned 20 (as in his last chance to re-enter the draft), was stuck as our property. Bertilsson, no longer forced to be our property because of the 2-year rule, was not signed allowing him to re-enter the draft as a 20-year-old. Eriksson didn't have that option when he was 20 because he was our guaranteed property.

De Serres re-entered the draft last year though he did not get drafted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
But I think it is what Rick said. The Flyers lost interest in Bertilsson and just forfeited his rights.
Forfeited his rights as in actively gave up his rights and let him re-enter the draft?

Or forfeited as in didn't even bother trying to sign him?

They are two very different things.

If they had his rights as an asset why would they actively give up rights that they were going to lose according to the CBA anyway (see: Tim Erixon).

It is very possible that they forfeited his rights in that they didn't actively pursue signing him.

It's also possible that Bertilsson wanted to try for somewhere else and opted not to sign with Philadelphia and instead re-enter the draft.


Last edited by CS: 06-02-2011 at 04:48 PM.
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Old
06-02-2011, 04:55 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Not necessarily. Like I said, be careful when speaking in absolutes when it comes to this stuff unless you are 100% convinced you are right. A lot of it is so awkward and dynamic that it's hard to get a grasp on what's going on in many scenarios.

I know that you are wrong about Eriksson needing to be re-upped last year because we are guaranteed the rights of all drafted players for 2 years. So Eriksson, when he turned 20 (as in his last chance to re-enter the draft), was stuck as our property. Bertilsson, no longer forced to be our property because of the 2-year rule, was not signed allowing him to re-enter the draft as a 20-year-old. Eriksson didn't have that option when he was 20 because he was our guaranteed property.

De Serres re-entered the draft last year though he did not get drafted.



Forfeited his rights as in actively gave up his rights and let him re-enter the draft?

Or forfeited as in didn't even bother trying to sign him?

They are two very different things.

If they had his rights as an asset why would they actively give up rights that they were going to lose according to the CBA anyway (see: Tim Erixon).

It is very possible that they forfeited his rights in that they didn't actively pursue signing him.

It's also possible that Bertilsson wanted to try for somewhere else and opted not to sign with Philadelphia and instead re-enter the draft.
Can you re-explain this part? You state that we are guaranteed the rights to all drafted players for 2 years. Eriksson was drafted in 2008. He played in the 2008-2009 season and then the 2009-2010 season. that is considered 2 years. At the end of the 2009-2010 season, Eriksson was 20 years old. At this point, he WAS able to re-enter the draft. This is very similar to Bertilsson. Bertilsson was draft 1 year after Eriksson. They are born on the same month in a 1 year difference. So if Bertilsson, playing in the same league as Eriksson HAD to have some sort of agreement in place why did we lose Bertilsson and not Eriksson also?

In other words, Eriksson wanted to stay Flyers property and Bertilsson didnt?

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06-02-2011, 05:02 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Can you re-explain this part? You state that we are guaranteed the rights to all drafted players for 2 years. Eriksson was drafted in 2008. He played in the 2008-2009 season and then the 2009-2010 season. that is considered 2 years. At the end of the 2009-2010 season, Eriksson was 20 years old. At this point, he WAS able to re-enter the draft. This is very similar to Bertilsson. Bertilsson was draft 1 year after Eriksson. They are born on the same month in a 1 year difference. So if Bertilsson, playing in the same league as Eriksson HAD to have some sort of agreement in place why did we lose Bertilsson and not Eriksson also?
You're right. I got confused in this mess.

My editor is lost right now too. I'm talking to him via GMail.

Honestly, when the news about Erixon came out I was extremely shocked. One of our writers actually broke the story about Erixon and his eventual trade.

That's when I heard about Bertilsson falling under the same criteria as Erixon.

Then I found out that Bertilsson wasn't going to be re-upped.

It all came as a pretty big shock to me too. I was under the impression up until this point that Europeans were not subject to the same rules that the CHL prospects were involved in in terms of re-entering the NHL draft as 20-year-olds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
In other words, Eriksson wanted to stay Flyers property and Bertilsson didnt?
Maybe that's what it comes down to?

Nothing in the CBA has changed since that time, making it all the more bizarre.


EDIT: I'm also curious as to whether or not it could even possibly have to do with some verbal commitment to the CHL at the time of the draft. We just had an prospect who was committed to NCAA at the time of his drafting but did not go the NCAA route. Even so, his team ended up holding onto his rights for 5 years. It was a really bizarre situation. So you always have to question whether or not something else is in play here that we're not being told.


Last edited by CS: 06-02-2011 at 05:11 PM.
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06-02-2011, 05:52 PM
  #44
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Here's what the CBA says:

Quote:
8.6 Reserve List Exclusive Rights

(a) Commencing with the 2005 NHL Entry Draft, a Player selected by a Club in the Entry Draft shall be registered on the Reserve List of the selecting Club as an "Unsigned Draft Choice."
  • (i) Subject to the provisions of Section (b), (c), and (d) below, such registration shall establish for such selecting Club exclusive right of negotiation for all the services of each Player selected and registered as against all other Clubs up to and including June 1 of the next calender year following the date of his selection.
  • (ii) Subject to the provisions in subsection (iii) below and Sections (b) and (c) below, if, on or before June 1st of the calender year next succeeding the Entry Draft, the claiming Club makes a Bona Fide Offer (as defined below) to its claimed Player of an SPC, the Club shall retain the exclusive right of negotiation for the services of such Player up to and including the second June 1 following the date of his selection.
  • (iii) Notwithstanding anything set forth in subsections (i) and (ii) above, if a Player is drafted for the first time at the age of 20 and re-enters the Entry Draft at 22, the Club that selects him as a re-entry may retain the exclusive negotiating rights to the Player for only one (1) year and may not acquire exclusive negotiating rights to the Player for a second year by extending a Bona Fide Offer, provided, however, this provision shall not apply to a Player drafted outside North America whose rights, under all circumstances, shall be continued to be governed by Section 8.6(a)(ii).

(b) Drafted Players who Leave the Major Juniors prior to age 20.

...

(c) College Players

...

(d) A "Bona Fide Offer" is an offer of an SPC which is for a period corresponding to the Player's age as required under Section 9.1(b) of this Agreement, is to commence at the start of the next League Year, offers at least the Minimum Paragraph 1 Salary as set forth in Section 11.12 of this Agreement for each League Year covered by such offer and remains open to the Player for at least thirty (30) after receipt of the offer by the Player. A Bona Fide Offer may be conditioned upon acceptance by the Player within thirty (30) and carries no right to salary arbitration.

(e) Except otherwise provided in this Section, a claimed Player unsigned on June 1 at 5:00 p.m. New York time next succeeding his draft shall be removed from the Reserve List of the Club that claimed him.
This implies that we had a "Bona Fide Offer" for Eriksson, which would be why we did not lose his rights, and did not have one for Bertilsson.

That implies that we were indeed the ones that allowed Bertilsson to move on.

But there is still something missing here because it also implies that if we had given Eriksson a "Bona Fide Offer," he would have already been under contract by now.

It also implies that we have lost Riopel's rights as well assuming we did not give him a Bona Fide Offer before the June 1 5:00 p.m. cutoff since he was never under the reigns of an SPC/ELC.


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06-02-2011, 09:15 PM
  #45
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anyone know when prospects camp or the trial are?

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06-02-2011, 09:55 PM
  #46
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anyone know when prospects camp or the trial are?
Probably July.

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06-03-2011, 03:44 AM
  #47
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Honestly, when the news about Erixon came out I was extremely shocked. One of our writers actually broke the story about Erixon and his eventual trade.

That's when I heard about Bertilsson falling under the same criteria as Erixon.

Then I found out that Bertilsson wasn't going to be re-upped.

It all came as a pretty big shock to me too. I was under the impression up until this point that Europeans were not subject to the same rules that the CHL prospects were involved in in terms of re-entering the NHL draft as 20-year-olds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
This implies that we had a "Bona Fide Offer" for Eriksson, which would be why we did not lose his rights, and did not have one for Bertilsson.

That implies that we were indeed the ones that allowed Bertilsson to move on.

But there is still something missing here because it also implies that if we had given Eriksson a "Bona Fide Offer," he would have already been under contract by now.

It also implies that we have lost Riopel's rights as well assuming we did not give him a Bona Fide Offer before the June 1 5:00 p.m. cutoff since he was never under the reigns of an SPC/ELC.
Forget about the Bona Fide Offer, that is only to keep the rights for a second season. I always understood it in the way that you offer your prospects a $500K/$50K no bonuses contract, just to keep the rights. Regarding the Swedes, Eriksson got his Bona Fide offer 2009, Bertilsson got his 2010.

For the CBA, CHL prospects and European prospects are the same. An NHL team owns their rights until June 1st two years after the Draft (Bona Fide offer after the first year assumed). Thats all that is said there.

BUT, after the lockout the NHL and the IIHF couldn't agree on a transfer agreement. Due to that the owners "agreed" to keep the rights to their prospects for longer ... I think that its always been for another season. Basically the rights have been extended every year for another year. If that changed this season, we lost the rights to all of them: Bertilsson, Eriksson, Kovar, Popov and Bodrov.

For the CHL prospects, Riopel, Labrecque and Morrison, its clear. They haven't been signed to a contract so the rights are lost. Labrecque and Riopel are UFAs, they were eligible to be drafted twice before, Morrison will re-enter the Draft.

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06-03-2011, 06:21 AM
  #48
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http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=753841

So the Swedish Elitserien signed a transfer agreement with the NHL, that means that the rules within the CBA count for those players. They lost the rights to Bertilsson because they weren't able to agree to a contract with him before the deadline.

But that doesn't explain why they still own Eriksson (if they still own the rights).

Edit: Question for mirimon, Vikke or some other Swede: Is the Elitserien independent from the Swedish Hockey Association?


Last edited by Rick Deckard: 06-03-2011 at 07:31 AM.
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06-03-2011, 09:39 AM
  #49
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Probably July.
yeah, it is always in july. i was asking for dates

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06-03-2011, 11:17 AM
  #50
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This comes directly from Paul Holmgren-- the Flyers no longer have Eriksson's rights, either. Both he and Bertilsson are eligible to be drafted by other clubs.

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