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Old
06-02-2011, 06:37 PM
  #901
jarek
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'm going to side mostly with jarek here. Why give the other team a competitive advantage? That's what you're doing if they are getting away with dives and you're not.

The other thing is, diving for no reason, yeah, I agree it's 100% dishonorable and I would handle it like Dreakmur says he does. However, there is also "honorable" diving, IMO, for example, if you are legitimately fouled and the only way the ref is going to call it is if you go down. This would not be a problem if the rules were called in the first place.
100% agree with this. I wouldn't dive for the sake of diving. I would dive for the sake of getting calls made that would otherwise be missed.. as you said.

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06-02-2011, 07:03 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'm going to side mostly with jarek here. Why give the other team a competitive advantage? That's what you're doing if they are getting away with dives and you're not.

The other thing is, diving for no reason, yeah, I agree it's 100% dishonorable and I would handle it like Dreakmur says he does. However, there is also "honorable" diving, IMO, for example, if you are legitimately fouled and the only way the ref is going to call it is if you go down. This would not be a problem if the rules were called in the first place.
It is a wild guess but I bet there would be a distinction between around the 30ish and under crowd and the 30ish and over crowd on this one. I don't give a crap about "competitive advantage".

Do you know what one of the best feelings to have when playing sports is? Beating someone who can't even beat you when cheating/diving or getting biased refereeing etc..

I guess you guys will never know because you immediately sink to their level as soon as the wind is blowing slightly that way. If you can't stand up for what is right even in the insular environment of a game.. that really doesn't bode well for how you are in life. Set an example for your kids or future kids for gods sake.

I don't care if I win a Stanley Cup, 10 million dollars, a sports car, and a supermodel for diving.. the only way I'm going down on a play is if I am legitimately taken down. Man up and have some damn self respect.

If I wanted to watch professional athletes being rat boys & wussies or pretending to be hurt I'd watch soccer.

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06-02-2011, 07:16 PM
  #903
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It is a wild guess but I bet there would be a distinction between around the 30ish and under crowd and the 30ish and over crowd on this one. I don't give a crap about "competitive advantage".

Do you know what one of the best feelings to have when playing sports is? Beating someone who can't even beat you when cheating/diving or getting biased refereeing etc..

I guess you guys will never know because you immediately sink to their level as soon as the wind is blowing slightly that way. If you can't stand up for what is right even in the insular environment of a game.. that really doesn't bode well for how you are in life. Set an example for your kids or future kids for gods sake.

I don't care if I win a Stanley Cup, 10 million dollars, a sports car, and a supermodel for diving.. the only way I'm going down on a play is if I am legitimately taken down. Man up and have some damn self respect.

If I wanted to watch professional athletes being rat boys & wussies or pretending to be hurt I'd watch soccer.
Then why are you watching hockey? Who are you to judge me or seventies or anyone else for conduct within the game with respect to diving? If the other team is going to dive, and they're not calling it, I don't think it should even be optional to take advantage of the same thing. You are being PAID to play.. you have a responsibility to your employer to do everything you can to win.. that includes diving, as far as I'm concerned, if they aren't calling it. It is a failure of the referees, not the players, that diving exists.

Also, if/when Ryan Kesler wins the cup, I highly doubt his kid is going to care how he won it.. all his kid is going to know is that his father won the cup, and he's going to brag to his friends, and nobody is going to care in the end how it was won.

Also, for your own sake, I would suggest that you get a clue about the real world. This ideal world that you're dreaming of doesn't exist. In every facet of life, cheating exists, and will continue to exist. The ones who cheat are the ones who regularly get ahead of the game. You can either ride this wave or be left behind. No one except you gives a damn if you did things honorably if you've got nothing to show for it.

I used to think the way you do - that everyone should act responsibly and honestly, but I learned the hard way that the ones that do are the ones that are left behind.

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06-02-2011, 07:23 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
Then why are you watching hockey? Who are you to judge me or seventies or anyone else for conduct within the game with respect to diving? If the other team is going to dive, and they're not calling it, I don't think it should even be optional to take advantage of the same thing. You are being PAID to play.. you have a responsibility to your employer to do everything you can to win.. that includes diving, as far as I'm concerned, if they aren't calling it. It is a failure of the referees, not the players, that diving exists.

Also, if/when Ryan Kesler wins the cup, I highly doubt his kid is going to care how he won it.. all his kid is going to know is that his father won the cup, and he's going to brag to his friends, and nobody is going to care in the end how it was won.

Also, for your own sake, I would suggest that you get a clue about the real world. This ideal world that you're dreaming of doesn't exist. In every facet of life, cheating exists, and will continue to exist. The ones who cheat are the ones who regularly get ahead of the game. You can either ride this wave or be left behind. No one except you gives a damn if you did things honorably if you've got nothing to show for it.

I used to think the way you do - that everyone should act responsibly and honestly, but I learned the hard way that the ones that do are the ones that are left behind.
Good for you choosing to be part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

The thing you don't understand is that I do have something to show for it.

Respect and trust from people who value honour above money or baubles. And satisfaction from accomplishment that is untainted.

You're keeping score with the wrong measurements.

Isn't it funny how doing the right thing and doing the hard thing are so often the same thing?

Pat yourself on the back some more for taking the easy way.

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06-02-2011, 07:46 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Good for you choosing to be part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

The thing you don't understand is that I do have something to show for it.

Respect and trust from people who value honour above money or baubles. And satisfaction from accomplishment that is untainted.

You're keeping score with the wrong measurements.

Isn't it funny how doing the right thing and doing the hard thing are so often the same thing?

Pat yourself on the back some more for taking the easy way.
Ask yourself this: what do you really know about me, or what I've done in my life, other than me approving diving when it isn't called? You're judging me for lifestyle choices that I have never made in my life.

As far as being part of the solution.. the world is ending, dude, and we're the cause for it. It's only a matter of time until society crumbles under the greed and corruption that rule it. The current economical system, run by greed and capitalism, is very unstable and unsustainable. The "solution" is utter chaos and destruction, with order being restored after the dust settles. It may not happen in my lifetime, it may not happen in the next couple centuries, but eventually it will. That's how it has always been in history.

I commend you for choosing a virtuous life and whatnot.. just keep in mind that almost every single person you've dealt with in your life and will deal with in the future has at some point most likely done something that goes against what you believe in. Helping these people means you are indirectly supporting the greed and selfishness, despite your good intentions. It's impossible to avoid it. It's best to accept it, take advantage of it when you can and pray that the world doesn't fall apart in your lifetime.

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Old
06-03-2011, 12:17 AM
  #906
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I'm a socialist, personally.... my capitalist nature ends with my owning of a basement suite in my house (you could say I am taking advantage of the fact that I am affluent enough to buy my own house and others aren't)... but anyway, this conversation has gone well beyond what I wanted to discuss! Call penalties by the rulebook and we don't talk about this stuff.

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06-03-2011, 12:31 AM
  #907
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
However, there is also "honorable" diving, IMO, for example, if you are legitimately fouled and the only way the ref is going to call it is if you go down. This would not be a problem if the rules were called in the first place.
That doesn't make sense. If you were legitimately fouled, you wouldn't need to dive.

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06-03-2011, 12:52 AM
  #908
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That doesn't make sense. If you were legitimately fouled, you wouldn't need to dive.
So if someone's hooking the **** out of you but it's not enough to make you fall down, you're not being legitimately fouled?

also, you guys might be getting caught up in misinterpretations of terminology. I'm not talking about full out "diving", more like "letting yourself fall". And in no way do I condone doing it when you are not being fouled.

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06-03-2011, 10:00 AM
  #909
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That doesn't make sense. If you were legitimately fouled, you wouldn't need to dive.
In theory, sure.. but how many times have refs missed legitimate fouls that aren't causing a player to fall? The most obvious one I can think of is the high stick against Sundin that almost gave him a Joker smile.

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06-03-2011, 11:15 AM
  #910
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
So if someone's hooking the **** out of you but it's not enough to make you fall down, you're not being legitimately fouled?
Hooking should never be enough to make you fall down. You want to draw attention to a hook, move your feet and fight through it. It's win-win if you beard down and fight it - you either fight off the hook or you bring more attention to it honestly.

By diving, you are quitting on the play. It's just a lack of second effort.

Quote:
also, you guys might be getting caught up in misinterpretations of terminology. I'm not talking about full out "diving", more like "letting yourself fall". And in no way do I condone doing it when you are not being fouled.
It's wrong no matter how you want to slice it.

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06-03-2011, 11:22 AM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
In theory, sure.. but how many times have refs missed legitimate fouls that aren't causing a player to fall? The most obvious one I can think of is the high stick against Sundin that almost gave him a Joker smile.
Referees miss calls all the time. That's part of the game.

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06-03-2011, 11:30 AM
  #912
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Referees miss calls all the time. That's part of the game.
If that's part of the game, then so is embellishing to draw attention to those calls. It's not always possible to "fight through" those hooks without an outstanding amount of effort.. why should I put that effort in if the opposing player got lazy and decided to hook me down? If you "fight through it", you're expending far more energy than the hooker. Why should I give him that competitive advantage if there's an easier way to achieve the same result?

You're living in a dream world if you actually think this way. All these players that you're teaching not to dive, if any of them make it higher, they will be coached by more competitive coaches, and those guys will encourage diving. You'll be watching players that you coached in the future who will be doing everything that you taught against. That's competition. That's part of the game. Until the refs start calling everything, it will continue to be part of the game. That's all there is to it. There is no point in fighting it, unless you can get a very large group of people to get behind you and get some changes made.

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06-03-2011, 11:49 AM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
If that's part of the game, then so is embellishing to draw attention to those calls. It's not always possible to "fight through" those hooks without an outstanding amount of effort.. why should I put that effort in if the opposing player got lazy and decided to hook me down? If you "fight through it", you're expending far more energy than the hooker. Why should I give him that competitive advantage if there's an easier way to achieve the same result?
You either fight through hooks and holds or you legitimately get taken down. There isn't a grey area here.

You're just advocating racing to the bottom in the game and in life.

You gave up - that is your choice - that doesn't mean we have to, or that you are better off.


Quote:
You're living in a dream world if you actually think this way. All these players that you're teaching not to dive, if any of them make it higher, they will be coached by more competitive coaches, and those guys will encourage diving. You'll be watching players that you coached in the future who will be doing everything that you taught against. That's competition. That's part of the game. Until the refs start calling everything, it will continue to be part of the game. That's all there is to it. There is no point in fighting it, unless you can get a very large group of people to get behind you and get some changes made.
Diving is the exact opposite of more competitive.

Any coach that would actually encourage diving is a complete joke and destroys their credibility (imo). How can you encourage someone to dive and then at any other time expect them to work hard at anything?

I know it isn't popular with the (generally younger) "me me me now now now" crowd, but how you win is actually as important to some people as winning.

You say no one will say anything about Kesler being a diver if he wins the Cup or even the Conn Smythe this year.. but we are right now and until my last breath I'll always hold it against him unless he matures and straightens up. And I'm far from the only one.

Referees are people and they make mistakes.. but you're the one living in a dream world if you believe that the guys who are serial divers won't end up paying for it in the end.

Referees have long memories for people actively trying to make them look bad.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 06-03-2011 at 12:23 PM.
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06-03-2011, 11:49 AM
  #914
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
If that's part of the game, then so is embellishing to draw attention to those calls. It's not always possible to "fight through" those hooks without an outstanding amount of effort.. why should I put that effort in if the opposing player got lazy and decided to hook me down? If you "fight through it", you're expending far more energy than the hooker. Why should I give him that competitive advantage if there's an easier way to achieve the same result?
Embellishing is not part of the game. It's against the rules.... hence the penalty.

You're giving the extra effort becuse the play is not over. You still have a chance to make something happen.

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You're living in a dream world if you actually think this way.
If I beleived everyone thought like this, I'd be in a dream world. Why am I living in a dream world just because I hold myself and my players to a higher standard?

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All these players that you're teaching not to dive, if any of them make it higher, they will be coached by more competitive coaches, and those guys will encourage diving. You'll be watching players that you coached in the future who will be doing everything that you taught against.
Unless I'm forgetting somebody, three players that I've coached are currently in the NHL... and you're right, coaches at higher levels have encouraged them to dive.

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That's competition. That's part of the game. Until the refs start calling everything, it will continue to be part of the game. That's all there is to it. There is no point in fighting it, unless you can get a very large group of people to get behind you and get some changes made.
It's not competition - it's cheating. It's not part of the game - it's against the rules.

The referees should call it....

There is a point fighting it. Just because I can't win the fight doesn't mean I should join the other team. If I can teach a few kids how to compete honestly, that's a good thing.

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06-03-2011, 12:22 PM
  #915
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There is a point fighting it. Just because I can't win the fight doesn't mean I should join the other team. If I can teach a few kids how to compete honestly, that's a good thing.
Please continue to do so!

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06-03-2011, 12:35 PM
  #916
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Dreak, are you also teaching them to hook their opponents in ways that they will get away with?

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06-03-2011, 12:42 PM
  #917
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Dreak, are you also teaching them to hook their opponents in ways that they will get away with?
Absolutely not. I teach my players to play hard and clean.... and clean doesn't mean whatever you can get away with.

I very regularly inform my players that they were lucky to not get penalties.

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06-03-2011, 01:28 PM
  #918
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Absolutely not. I teach my players to play hard and clean.... and clean doesn't mean whatever you can get away with.

I very regularly inform my players that they were lucky to not get penalties.
Just out of curiosity, how often does your team win? I would imagine there is a strong correlation between getting away with cheating and winning, and I absolutely don't blame those teams for cheating if they are being allowed to get away with it.

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Embellishing is not part of the game. It's against the rules.... hence the penalty.
You're right, but until the refs start calling it on a regular basis, people will continue to take advantage of that. Especially in smaller markets where the fans are more fickle and will only support the team when it's winning.. you have a vested interest in doing whatever you can to win the games, because that's what keeps the franchise afloat.. even if it means "cheating".

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You're giving the extra effort becuse the play is not over. You still have a chance to make something happen.
As I said before.. you spending that extra effort gives your opponent a competitive advantage because you're expending far more energy than they are. Over the course of a game, this can mean the difference between winning and losing.

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If I beleived everyone thought like this, I'd be in a dream world. Why am I living in a dream world just because I hold myself and my players to a higher standard?
You may not be living in a dream world, but you are certainly using your time in a very inefficient way. When these players move up to more competitive leagues, their coaches will start to endorse diving, and perhaps even punish players who don't - who knows. All your teaching might only be sticking with 5-10% of the guys you coach.

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Unless I'm forgetting somebody, three players that I've coached are currently in the NHL... and you're right, coaches at higher levels have encouraged them to dive.
Just out of curiosity, who are these players?

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It's not competition - it's cheating. It's not part of the game - it's against the rules.
If the refs aren't calling it, for whatever reason, as far as I'm concerned, it's a part of the game. Every single team in the league dives.. some do it more convincingly than others. If EVERYONE does it, the playing field evens out, and at that point it is no longer cheating in my mind.

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There is a point fighting it. Just because I can't win the fight doesn't mean I should join the other team. If I can teach a few kids how to compete honestly, that's a good thing.
I don't disagree.. I just think it's futile.

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06-03-2011, 01:36 PM
  #919
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You either fight through hooks and holds or you legitimately get taken down. There isn't a grey area here.

You're just advocating racing to the bottom in the game and in life.

You gave up - that is your choice - that doesn't mean we have to, or that you are better off.
It pains me to see you putting cheating in a game where you have a very vested interest in winning on the same level as lifestyle choices, when I fully disagree that this is universally the case with professional athletes.

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Diving is the exact opposite of more competitive.

Any coach that would actually encourage diving is a complete joke and destroys their credibility (imo). How can you encourage someone to dive and then at any other time expect them to work hard at anything?

I know it isn't popular with the (generally younger) "me me me now now now" crowd, but how you win is actually as important to some people as winning.

You say no one will say anything about Kesler being a diver if he wins the Cup or even the Conn Smythe this year.. but we are right now and until my last breath I'll always hold it against him unless he matures and straightens up. And I'm far from the only one.

Referees are people and they make mistakes.. but you're the one living in a dream world if you believe that the guys who are serial divers won't end up paying for it in the end.

Referees have long memories for people actively trying to make them look bad.
Explain to me, then, how diving DOESN'T give you a competitive advantage if you're getting away with it and getting favorable calls for your team?

Coaches that don't encourage diving are doing their players and team that hires them a disservice - they are not using a means of getting ahead to try to win games, and they have a professional obligation to use anything they can, within reason, to win the games.

If Kesler wins the Cup and the Smythe, nobody is going to care how it was done 5-10 years from now - all they will know is that Kesler won the Cup and the Smythe. Do you honestly believe that diving is a new problem? Evidence of diving can be found as early as the early 1900s. It's big been an issue since the dawn of the universe. Everyone has cheated at some point, those people cheat now, and will continue to cheat in the future - as long as they can get away with it. This is human nature.

Referees make mistakes, true, and as long as they continue to do it, people will continue to abuse that. Therefore, the onus is on the NHL to implement systems to limit these mistakes. I absolutely do not fault the players for taking advantage of this.

You might be right about the referees remembering guys who make them look bad, but how often have they actually made the calls? I've seen incidents where diving was called on a legitimate take down just as often as I've seen it called on a dive. Sometimes the referees get overzealous with this and make even more mistakes, and then get reprimanded by the NHL (behind closed doors, obviously). This is why they are scared to make these calls.


Last edited by jarek: 06-03-2011 at 05:33 PM.
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06-03-2011, 02:03 PM
  #920
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I would imagine there is a strong correlation between getting away with cheating and winning, and I absolutely don't blame those teams for cheating if they are being allowed to get away with it.
You are getting carried away now. There is a strong correlation between talent and winning. Whatever correlation between cheating and winning exists, is rather weak, and a semi-strong correlation would only start to emerge if you identified matchups where the talent levels of the teams involved were comparable.

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06-03-2011, 02:14 PM
  #921
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I have a question for the diving advocates...

If you could get away with other penalties like you can diving would you encourage doing that too? Would you be ok winning a Championship just because you constantly tripped the opposing defenseman and gave yourself a few breakaways each game?


When you play in the NHL you agree to follow the rules. That is how any system of rules works. The same goes for laws in a society. Sure they are policed in some way and there are consequences to breaking them, but it really comes down to the people under those rules agreeing to follow them. If everyone just started stealing from each other there would be nothing the police or government could do to stop it. The only reason the rule of "no stealing" works is because (almost) everyone agrees that it is wrong and does not do it. The rules of the NHL should be no different. The players have agreed to play the game in a certain way, and should stick to it.

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06-03-2011, 02:14 PM
  #922
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Just out of curiosity, how often does your team win? I would imagine there is a strong correlation between getting away with cheating and winning, and I absolutely don't blame those teams for cheating if they are being allowed to get away with it.
My teams win a lot. I started coaching in the 1998/99 season. My teams have won their league 8 times, and have been the finalists 3 other times.

As I've said numerous times before, my teams win because I am lucky to coach great teams, but the fact that I don't let them cheat doesn't seem to stop them from winning.

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As I said before.. you spending that extra effort gives your opponent a competitive advantage because you're expending far more energy than they are. Over the course of a game, this can mean the difference between winning and losing.
It's not giving them a competitive advantage. You're actually taking away from that advangate.

A lot of people just give up when they get hooked. That makes it very easy on the hooker. By fighting through it, they have two options. They can really lay into you, which almost always leads to a penalty, ot they can let you go, which leads to you breaking into open ice.

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You may not be living in a dream world, but you are certainly using your time in a very inefficient way. When these players move up to more competitive leagues, their coaches will start to endorse diving, and perhaps even punish players who don't - who knows. All your teaching might only be sticking with 5-10% of the guys you coach.
I don't coach to develop NHLers.

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Just out of curiosity, who are these players?
Drew Doughty, Logan Couture, and Nazem Kadri.

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If the refs aren't calling it, for whatever reason, as far as I'm concerned, it's a part of the game. Every single team in the league dives.. some do it more convincingly than others. If EVERYONE does it, the playing field evens out, and at that point it is no longer cheating in my mind.
The refs should call it. Just because you can get away with something doesn't mean it's honorable to do so.

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I don't disagree.. I just think it's futile.
Absolutely disagree.

Most of the kids I coach will end up playing beer league with me. If I can teach them that working hard and being honest in your efforts is a good thing, then they'll be better off in life.

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06-03-2011, 02:17 PM
  #923
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
Coaches that don't encourage diving are doing their players and team that hires them a disservice - they are not using a means of getting ahead to try to win games, and they have a professional obligation to use anything they can to win the games.
I guess we know your stance on performance enhancing drugs then, right?

If you are not taking steroids, you are cheating your team! Bunch of selfish non-cheaters!

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06-03-2011, 02:19 PM
  #924
Hawkey Town 18
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I guess we know your stance on performance enhancing drugs then, right?

If you are not taking steroids, you are cheating your team! Bunch of selfish non-cheaters!

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06-03-2011, 02:27 PM
  #925
overpass
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I agree with BraveCanadian. It's not about the consequences. It's about holding yourself to a standard of integrity.

I coach kids, and I make it clear to them that diving and playing to the refs is not something we do. Sometimes they do it anyway, and it doesn't mean they are bad kids, they just get frustrated and they want to win. But that's why you have coaches - to teach the kids how to conduct themselves, not just to run drills and set the lineup.

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