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Old
06-02-2011, 11:27 PM
  #251
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well...boudreau is still the coach and mcphee still the gm. so, whats the point?
Touche. We're doomed.

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06-03-2011, 09:35 AM
  #252
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Look at his signing thread on the main board. Compare the reactions of Blues fans to that of Caps fans when Schultz was extended. He's a significantly better player. Not without flaws, but much better than Schultz.

And yes, I loved Ballard as a player, and still do. I'd love to have him on this team (depending on the health of his leg, of course).
The Blues are not very good and getting a pretty good player signed long term at a decent rate is definitely a positive for them. Schultz was resigned after a major 1st round playoff exit. The circumstances were completely different.

And in the view of much of this board everyone is significantly better than Schultz. It is hard to believe for many that he even has a job in professional hockey, let alone playing 20 minutes a game for a top 10 team in the best league in the world.

Schultz is never going to get a fair shake around here because for most of his haters it isn't about how well he does his job it is about how he does his job. Yes Schultz was exposed in the Tampa series but so was pretty much the entire team. He did have a very good series against the Rangers though. And in Polak's one trip to the playoffs he was exposed by the Canucks the same way.

Polak's a decent player and so is Schultz so it makes sense IMO that they would be on similar contracts.

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06-03-2011, 09:58 AM
  #253
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Sarge plays basic defense which is effective. Like most other players, they can do more but just dont.

He doesnt clean the crease. Turns away from forwards in the goalies face after the whistle. Doesnt stand up for the teams stars. Doesn't play physical. Doesnt provide energy, fire up the bench or crowd with even a great play on a 2 on 1. Doesn't pursue loose pucks, he watches his partner until they cave and go get it, even if he is closer. He stepped up his game in the playoffs by trying to hit. Which by stepped up, I mean started to learn, a horrible time to learn. It was almost funny to watch. I rarely to never see him skating his hardest. He doesnt hustle over to support his partner that is getting into trouble, pull a little interference to slow down someone about to pummel Green, or give his partner an easy out via a short pass. Doesnt work the edge of breaking rules to gain an advantage. Forwards are fearless facing him. All of them. You think StL or someone else would be afraid of getting crunched trying to go wide. Nope.

Is Polak guilty of those same things?

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06-03-2011, 10:33 AM
  #254
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McPhee has sniffed around Bieksa enough over the years that I have to think he's going to kick tires on Bieksa as a UFA.

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06-03-2011, 10:50 AM
  #255
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McPhee has sniffed around Bieksa enough over the years that I have to think he's going to kick tires on Bieksa as a UFA.
He's going to get Mike Green money.

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06-03-2011, 11:22 AM
  #256
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He's going to get Mike Green money.
Wouldn't say that high, but he's really played well this postseason.

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06-03-2011, 12:14 PM
  #257
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He's going to get Mike Green money.
And?

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06-03-2011, 12:20 PM
  #258
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We have 8 signed D-man for next year. Don't see how we could add Bieksa, Erhoff, or anyone else. I want more than anything to trade Schultz, but can't see GMGM doing that.

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06-03-2011, 12:31 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Appreci8 View Post
We have 8 signed D-man for next year. Don't see how we could add Bieksa, Erhoff, or anyone else. I want more than anything to trade Schultz, but can't see GMGM doing that.
Techincally there are 7, as Alzner hasn't been signed yet. But for all intents and purposes, there are six. Sloan and Poti shouldn't factor into any decisions regarding defensive changes. Considering that, even if you keep Schultz, signing someone would just push Erskine to #7.

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06-03-2011, 12:35 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Appreci8 View Post
We have 8 signed D-man for next year. Don't see how we could add Bieksa, Erhoff, or anyone else. I want more than anything to trade Schultz, but can't see GMGM doing that.

I would love having Beiksa on the team and if Schultz is traded and Poti has to go on LTIR, that would clear up the space, but it won't happen.

- Assuming that Schultz and Poti are gone, who is he going to play with? This is assuming Alzner-Carlson and Erskine -Wideman are set at the 1 and 3 pairs. Green? Doubt it... Ideally if we brought back Hannan, and Hannan-Bieksa pairing would be a solid 2nd pairing. Then what happens to Green?

- Bieksa most likely will accept a discount to stay in Vancouver. He's expressed his appreciation numerous times for their willingness to stick with him. In all likelihood, I think Vancouver tries to trade Ballard and let Erhoff walk before saying goodbye to Beiksa.


If Poti really is done, I could see GMGM looking into Ballard. I have no clue why Vigneault seems to despise him, but he's still a lefty and top-4 quality and his status as the odd-man out in Vancouver would mean they might trade him on the cheap to an Eastern Conference team. His 4.2 million salary would largely be absorbed by the subtraction of Poti's. It's also less than what Bieksa and Erhoff will probably get.

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06-03-2011, 12:44 PM
  #261
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Even if we could come up with ways to make it happen, its a moot point. GMGM has said any moves will be internal ones and he's passed on some free agent D-men that were equal to or better than Bieksa, mainly in the past off-season. So I can't see him doing anything significant.

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06-03-2011, 12:44 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
He doesnt clean the crease. Turns away from forwards in the goalies face after the whistle. Doesnt stand up for the teams stars. Doesn't play physical. Doesnt provide energy, fire up the bench or crowd with even a great play on a 2 on 1. Doesn't pursue loose pucks, he watches his partner until they cave and go get it, even if he is closer. He stepped up his game in the playoffs by trying to hit. Which by stepped up, I mean started to learn, a horrible time to learn. It was almost funny to watch. I rarely to never see him skating his hardest. He doesnt hustle over to support his partner that is getting into trouble, pull a little interference to slow down someone about to pummel Green, or give his partner an easy out via a short pass. Doesnt work the edge of breaking rules to gain an advantage. Forwards are fearless facing him. All of them. You think StL or someone else would be afraid of getting crunched trying to go wide. Nope.
You know what else he doesn't do? Give up many goals to the other team. Sarge may have his shortfalls, and he's far from the perfect, do-everything defenseman. But he does fulfill his ultimate goal rather well, preventing the other team from scoring.

Do I want more out of Schultz? Sure. Do I want a mobile defenseman who's capable of playing strong physically and clearing the crease? Yup. Do I think Schultz is a bad player simply because he's not that guy? No.

You need an assortment of different types of players. Having a Schultz-type defenseman is not a bad thing. Hes strong positionally, has great reach, and is good at tangling up players along the boards. Most importantly, he's a plus PKer. It's not as if he's the only dman in the league who plays this way (even at his size).

I want that "missing piece" in our top 4 as bad as anyone. I'd be willing to trade Schultz to get it. But running Schultz out of town for pennies on the dollar would be a stupid move. If we can address a need by trading him, sure, go for it. But trading him for the sake of trading him, not so much.

Either way, I don't really anticipate McPhee trading Schultz anytime soon. But him trading Steckel was a little surprising as well.

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06-03-2011, 12:56 PM
  #263
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Pennies on the dollar, eh?

What kind of trade value do you think a $10 million dman who can't skate and can't pass has around the league?

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06-03-2011, 12:57 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Appreci8 View Post
Even if we could come up with ways to make it happen, its a moot point. GMGM has said any moves will be internal ones and he's passed on some free agent D-men that were equal to or better than Bieksa, mainly in the past off-season. So I can't see him doing anything significant.
And you believe that?

Maybe that's what ends up happening, but I wouldn't take that comment at face value.

I'd guess the most likely scenario involving the defense is merely Hannan being re-signed, Sloan waived and Poti LTIRed, but if any opportunity presenets itself that would improve on that situation, I'd think McPhee would seize it.

Best case scenario (prior to July 1), IMO (for the defense) is waiving Sloan, trading Schultz for either an effective bottom-6 forward or a draft pick, and signing Hannan to a 2-3 year deal in the Poti/Schutlz range. Then you'd have, going into Free Agency:

Hannan-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Erskine-Wideman

Then in free agency, go after an Ehrhoff or Pitkanen type to pair with Green. If you're priced out of one of those guys, go after someone like Andy Greene or Radek Martinek on the cheap. Then you'd have:

Ehrhoff/Pitkanen-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Hannan-Wideman
Erskine

or

Hannan-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Martinek/Greene-Wideman
Erskine

Either one of those groups is an improvement, IMO. The first one would make the defense as good as anyone's in the conference.

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06-03-2011, 01:00 PM
  #265
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Trading Schultz is addition by subtraction for the playoffs, as far as I'm concerned.

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06-03-2011, 01:08 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Trading Schultz is addition by subtraction for the playoffs, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah. We'd be so much better if we got rid of the guy who set the playoff record for most TOI without a goal scored against him.*


I'm not preaching that Schultz is some elite d-man. But the hate against him is getting completely ridiculous. Someone has to play devil's advocate here. Grass is always greener on the other side, I suppose.


*Didn't we have to wait a while in the beginning of the regular season for a goal to be scored against him, too? Or was that someone else?

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06-03-2011, 01:09 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
And you believe that?

Maybe that's what ends up happening, but I wouldn't take that comment at face value.

I'd guess the most likely scenario involving the defense is merely Hannan being re-signed, Sloan waived and Poti LTIRed, but if any opportunity presenets itself that would improve on that situation, I'd think McPhee would seize it.

Best case scenario (prior to July 1), IMO (for the defense) is waiving Sloan, trading Schultz for either an effective bottom-6 forward or a draft pick, and signing Hannan to a 2-3 year deal in the Poti/Schutlz range. Then you'd have, going into Free Agency:

Hannan-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Erskine-Wideman

Then in free agency, go after an Ehrhoff or Pitkanen type to pair with Green. If you're priced out of one of those guys, go after someone like Andy Greene or Radek Martinek on the cheap. Then you'd have:

Ehrhoff/Pitkanen-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Hannan-Wideman
Erskine

or

Hannan-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Martinek/Greene-Wideman
Erskine

Either one of those groups is an improvement, IMO. The first one would make the defense as good as anyone's in the conference.
Has he proven otherwise? He has been reluctant splurge in free agency, perhaps b/c of the Nylander disaster. Defense-wise he hasn't made any external moves of long-term significance, electing to build from within or make TDL acquisitions. The only move I see is dumping a D-man to rid of the logjam, not bringing one in. But believe me, I'd love to add Bieksa, Erhroff, or trade for a guy like Regehr, just can't see it happening.

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06-03-2011, 01:10 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Appreci8 View Post
Has he proven otherwise? He has been reluctant splurge in free agency, perhaps b/c of the Nylander disaster. Defense-wise he hasn't made any external moves of long-term significance, electing to build from within or make TDL acquisitions. The only move I see is dumping a D-man to rid of the logjam, not bringing one in. But believe me, I'd love to add Bieksa, Erhroff, or trade for a guy like Regehr, just can't see it happening.
He's proven time and time again that you should never listen to what he says.

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06-03-2011, 01:16 PM
  #269
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I am also massively in favor of adding a top 4 defenseman to pair with Green. Whether it be Vancouver's left-overs (Ehrhoff, Bieksa, or Ballard, but not Salo), Markov, a discount-deal for Jovocop, or trading for someone like Tyutin/Regehr/Hjalmarsson. I doubt it actually happens (and I question whether Markov, Ehrhoff, or Bieksa would play up to their eventual contract), but I think the defense would be greatly improved by that addition.

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06-03-2011, 01:17 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Yeah. We'd be so much better if we got rid of the guy who set the playoff record for most TOI without a goal scored against him.*


I'm not preaching that Schultz is some elite d-man. But the hate against him is getting completely ridiculous. Someone has to play devil's advocate here. Grass is always greener on the other side, I suppose.


*Didn't we have to wait a while in the beginning of the regular season for a goal to be scored against him, too? Or was that someone else?
Don't really care if there wasn't a goal scored against him for a stretch during the Rangers' series. He's been brutalized in every other playoff series of his career.

He's the definition of a passenger. He doesn't do anything. He doesn't win races, doesn't win battles, doesn't contribute to the offense, doesn't punish the opposition physically, doesn't break up the forecheck. He gets in the way. That's the extent of his defensive skills. No urgency to his game.

To win in the playoffs, you need guys that are going to compete and leave it all on the ice. Not guys who's slow line changes cause OT game-winners.

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06-03-2011, 01:41 PM
  #271
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Don't really care if there wasn't a goal scored against him for a stretch during the Rangers' series. He's been brutalized in every other playoff series of his career.

He's the definition of a passenger. He doesn't do anything. He doesn't win races, doesn't win battles, doesn't contribute to the offense, doesn't punish the opposition physically, doesn't break up the forecheck. He gets in the way. That's the extent of his defensive skills. No urgency to his game.

To win in the playoffs, you need guys that are going to compete and leave it all on the ice. Not guys who's slow line changes cause OT game-winners.
Yet your suggestion still has Scott Hannan, in some cases as a 1st pairing guy?

I agree with much of what you're saying, but I think you're losing the forest for the trees. To phrase my argument another way, think of Aroldis Chapman, who I'm going to call the anti-Schultz.
Ignoring for the moment that he's still developing as a young pitcher, just imagine a pitcher with his stat line. Oh man, look at those K/9 numbers (10.38!), and that opposing batters are only hitting .143 against him, and that 103.9 mph fastball. What outstanding peripherals. Yet he has a 6.92 ERA, 6.51 xFIP, and a -0.2 WAR. That's right, he's performance is below replacement value at this point.
Why? Because no matter how good those peripherals are, he's still giving up runs. And runs are what actually matters when playing baseball.

Schultz is the polar opposite of this. He sucks at [item x] and [attribute y]. But he's still a useful hockey player. He has a role, and he can fill that role. When we lump too much responsibility on him against a good opponent (especially when his partner isn't a plus skater, as was the situation in the Tampa series), his flaws can be exposed and exploited. But no player is lacking flaws, and there are plenty of defensemen who can be exposed in the playoffs by the right opponent. Remember how bad Keith looked for chunks of the playoffs last year? Or how god awful Pronger was against Chicago?

Give Schultz a mobile partner (Wideman), don't give him top-pairing minutes, and let him kill penalties.

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06-03-2011, 01:41 PM
  #272
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Blah blah blah...

Is Polak guilty of those same things?
Go watch the next 80 games Polak plays and you tell me. I don't know the answer as over the last few years I have probably only watched 10 Blues' games. Do I see Polak make mistakes when I watch him? Yes. Are they mistakes he makes all the time? I don't know as I don't watch him enough to know. And it works the same way for good plays.

You don't have to go too far to find people on these boards, not the Caps' side but HF wide, who think Schultz is a very good player and a lot of the reason Green was able to put up the offensive numbers he was.

My point in all of this is that when you watch a guy once a month he is going to look a lot better to you than if you watched him every day.

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06-03-2011, 01:45 PM
  #273
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McPhee has sniffed around Bieksa enough over the years that I have to think he's going to kick tires on Bieksa as a UFA.
Does anyone know if Green, Carlson, Wideman, or Bieksa are comfortable on the left?

Left shots have had to play on the right forever but it is pretty rare that a righty plays regularly on the left and most of the time when they are asked to for whatever reason they don't excel at it.

So unless McPhee is looking to move Wideman or Green, or one of those 4 guys has shown he can be just as good on the left, there is no way I can see the Caps looking seriously at Bieksa.

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06-03-2011, 02:20 PM
  #274
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Yet your suggestion still has Scott Hannan, in some cases as a 1st pairing guy?

I agree with much of what you're saying, but I think you're losing the forest for the trees. To phrase my argument another way, think of Aroldis Chapman, who I'm going to call the anti-Schultz.
Ignoring for the moment that he's still developing as a young pitcher, just imagine a pitcher with his stat line. Oh man, look at those K/9 numbers (10.38!), and that opposing batters are only hitting .143 against him, and that 103.9 mph fastball. What outstanding peripherals. Yet he has a 6.92 ERA, 6.51 xFIP, and a -0.2 WAR. That's right, he's performance is below replacement value at this point.
Why? Because no matter how good those peripherals are, he's still giving up runs. And runs are what actually matters when playing baseball.

Schultz is the polar opposite of this. He sucks at [item x] and [attribute y]. But he's still a useful hockey player. He has a role, and he can fill that role. When we lump too much responsibility on him against a good opponent (especially when his partner isn't a plus skater, as was the situation in the Tampa series), his flaws can be exposed and exploited. But no player is lacking flaws, and there are plenty of defensemen who can be exposed in the playoffs by the right opponent. Remember how bad Keith looked for chunks of the playoffs last year? Or how god awful Pronger was against Chicago?

Give Schultz a mobile partner (Wideman), don't give him top-pairing minutes, and let him kill penalties.
Scott Hannan is a vastly superior player to Schultz. He has all of Schultz's strengths, save his length, yet he wins battles, rubs out forwards along the boards with great prejudice, is significantly stronger, and is a better skater. He's also approaching 1000 games of NHL experience.

And the Chapman comparison doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons. First of all, as you said, Chapman is anything but a finished product. He has under 30 innings of MLB experience. Schultz has almost 340 games of NHL experience. Second, as a pitcher, Chapman is largely isolated in his performance. He can't have teammates cover his mistakes (for the most part) and can't be carried by being on a strong team. Schultz can be, and often is made to look better by his teammates.

I have no doubt Schultz in a legitimate NHL defenseman. I'm not going to argue he's AHL caliber. But he's a liability for what this team wants to do (win in the playoffs). He'd be much better off on a team that plays a very defensive style that's fine just trying to get into the playoffs.


Last edited by NobodyBeatsTheWiz: 06-03-2011 at 02:26 PM.
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06-03-2011, 02:25 PM
  #275
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Go watch the next 80 games Polak plays and you tell me. I don't know the answer as over the last few years I have probably only watched 10 Blues' games. Do I see Polak make mistakes when I watch him? Yes. Are they mistakes he makes all the time? I don't know as I don't watch him enough to know. And it works the same way for good plays.

You don't have to go too far to find people on these boards, not the Caps' side but HF wide, who think Schultz is a very good player and a lot of the reason Green was able to put up the offensive numbers he was.

My point in all of this is that when you watch a guy once a month he is going to look a lot better to you than if you watched him every day.
Again, to a man, every one of the people that watch Polak every game (Blues fans) were thrilled with the extension and rate. So I don't see how your point holds water. Watch Nick Lidstrom for 80 games and you'll see him make mistakes.

I refuse to believe that Caps fans are just that much more cynical.

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