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Now that we have Erixon, 2 more D deals...

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Old
06-03-2011, 05:29 PM
  #1
bernmeister
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Now that we have Erixon, 2 more D deals...

If opportunity drops a prize F in our lap, great.
However, I think there might be more opportunity in attempting to land Victor Hedman (at cost of not much more than MDZ) and Doughty, which would be a massive overpayment, but one I think is long term beneficial. If Doughty is RFA --- as I recall --- would want to negotiate a contract with him first.

We get younger, improve our power play to extent it is a difference maker.
TB and LA get enough in assets to make it worth their while. I assume LA will translate extra cap into other non cap assets (i.e., Kudratek = 2nd round pick, etc., or they keep him and dump deadwood instead).

Here's my thought:

Now that we have Erixon,
1) MDZ, Christian Thomas + MZA
to TB for Victor Hedman

Then, part of the Wolski to LA picture is:
2) Fs Gaborik, Stepan, and Wolski;
Ds Ilkka Heikkinen and Kundratek;
and one netminder not named Lundqvist plus the #15 overall pick
to LA for Doughty

Explanation:
Deal 1. Saves TB $$; possible replacement for St. Louis; , MD who once played with Stamkos, not bad substitute for Hedman. Rangers probably best return for MDZ, upgrade.

Deal 2:
Stepan is a solid block
Gaborik a bonafide sniper, gamble is he returns to form after healed shoulder separation and mild concussion, and still got like 20+ goals in like half a season
Girardi is best shot blocking D in league and a solid defensive G
Wolski of interest to LA in another thread; if a bust buyout for cap space is reasonable
Heikkinen is Finnish import, rushing D might be stopgap option, competes w/short term contract
Kundratek a bonafide 2nd prospect value
another G to develop or trade can’t hurt.
+ a mid first rounder
Again, Rangers upgrade.

Results:
LW C RW
Dubinsky Anisimov Callahan
Grachev Boyle Prust
Hagelin Lindberg Tommy Grant
Fedotenko Drury Wiese
reserves: maybe Gilroy, Jason Wilson, Fasth
possibly dump Christensen, Avery, Prospal (would keep but his knees are going)

D
Staal Doughty
Sauer McDonaugh
Erixon Hedman
reserves: Emminger, V. Tank, Pashnin, Parlett

G:s Lundqvist, Biron

Thoughts...
Please don't hesitate to qualify your opinions with why you think value is good/bad, we are paying too much/little, etc.
Thanks in advance...

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06-03-2011, 05:36 PM
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Thoughts:

-If TB and LA both love their respective players (Doughty, Hedman), why would they be willing to deal quality for quantity? That's like us flipping Staal for 2-3 players whose cumulative value is comparable to Staal's. If we're pleased & happy with Marc Staal, why would we willingly trade him for quantity?

-You decimated the Rangers offense at the expense of overloading up on defense. Trading away Gaborik & Stepan & probably our most valued prospect in Thomas. The line-up you suggested is woefully inadequate up front. Prust should not be on the 2nd line, Grachev is unproven at the NHL level and is still working on improving his production at the AHL level. I don't even know who Tommy Grant is.

-Unrealistic that the Rangers would trade for 2 premier young defenseman and then skate one of them on the 3rd pairing with limited minutes.

I think your trade proposals might sound plausible 'in theory' but when you look at the bigger picture and the reality of how teams wheel & deal, I think you could come to the conclusion that a lot of these trade proposals are unrealistic and highly improbable. But nice work explaining your justification for the moves.

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Old
06-03-2011, 05:41 PM
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these are excellent proposals. if you want to rebuild via tanking.

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06-03-2011, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Then, part of the Wolski to LA picture is:
2) Fs Gaborik, Stepan, and Wolski;
Ds Ilkka Heikkinen and Kundratek;
and one netminder not named Lundqvist plus the #15 overall pick
to LA for Doughty
You should include Dowzak and Baranka too.

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06-03-2011, 05:51 PM
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bernmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Thoughts:

-If TB and LA both love their respective players (Doughty, Hedman), why would they be willing to deal quality for quantity? That's like us flipping Staal for 2-3 players whose cumulative value is comparable to Staal's. If we're pleased & happy with Marc Staal, why would we willingly trade him for quantity?

-You decimated the Rangers offense at the expense of overloading up on defense. Trading away Gaborik & Stepan & probably our most valued prospect in Thomas. The line-up you suggested is woefully inadequate up front. Prust should not be on the 2nd line, Grachev is unproven at the NHL level and is still working on improving his production at the AHL level. I don't even know who Tommy Grant is.

-Unrealistic that the Rangers would trade for 2 premier young defenseman and then skate one of them on the 3rd pairing with limited minutes.

I think your trade proposals might sound plausible 'in theory' but when you look at the bigger picture and the reality of how teams wheel & deal, I think you could come to the conclusion that a lot of these trade proposals are unrealistic and highly improbable. But nice work explaining your justification for the moves.
Thank you.
we lost a D in MDZ, but upgraded with Hedman
TB motivation is based on need to extend Stamkos long term, and MDZ, who played with Stamkos earlier, is a good alternate replacement.
Can live without high boom bust Thomas if I get enough in return, which IMO, Hedman is.

LA is another story. See they are more inclined to keep him and not make him available. But the question is, if you are LA, and you have to assume you are not going to get Coke for Pepsi, is this attractive enough for them to make the deal? I say yes, but it's a judgment call.

I realize what was done to the offense we need. But I think these moves, which don't even assume we land Richards, will set us up to have our young talent prove itself. We've got contenders and pretenders in our system, like everybody else. The people I've suggested, I believe, will cut the mustard.

We kept our core line: Dubi, AA, Cally. also important contributors, Boyle, Prust, etc.
I think on balance this would work.

Thanks again for the feedback..

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06-03-2011, 05:54 PM
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06-03-2011, 05:57 PM
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I hate it, it's a total overload. It leaves us with crap at foward and a defense that's far better than it needs to be.

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06-03-2011, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post

Thanks again for the feedback..
Other things to consider:

-Drury is all but certain to be bought out in a couple weeks
-Rangers have a very strong chance at landing Richards to center our top line
-You are sending nearly $12 mil in cap hits to L.A. for next season
-MDZ's trade value is very low considering his play digressed and he had to be demoted last season. Hedman was the #2 overall pick and expected to be a franchise defensemen for TB... Christian Thomas + MDZ is not going to pry him from TB.

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06-03-2011, 05:59 PM
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I'm going to attempt to salvage the conversation here by saying just because we acquired Erixon doesn't mean we need to go out and trade one of out defensive prospects. We saw what happened to MDZ last season in his sophomore year, it could easily happen to Sauer and/or McDonagh. The more competition, the better. At the end of the day, I figure our roster has Staal, Girardi, and then most likely Sauer and McDonagh. After that, let's assume that either Gilroy is back or we bring in a veteran like Paul Kubina to round out our defense (not necessarily saying it'll be Kubina or that they'll be on the 3rd pair.) There's one or two spots open for these players:
Tim Erixon, Michael Del Zotto, Pavel Valentenko

Kundtratek and Pashnin could make a case, I even think Partlett could make a case, but those three are the ones that will get the hardest looks and won't have to have an AMAZING camp to make it. So let's say only one of them makes the squad. We'll say it's MDZ just so we don't have to list everyone's name again.
That leaves hartford with:
Erixon, Valentenko, Partlett, Pashnin, Kundtratek, Niemi, Redden, Bickel, Nightingale, and maybe McIlrath depending on what the franchise wants to do. That's 10 defenseman.

Redden to another league or another AHL team is 9.
Bickel back to the ECHL, 8.
McIlrath back to juniors, 7 (I really doubt he's the first call-up, or anywhere near it, so let's just send him to the WHL for another year...he needs it).
Niemi is your 7th d-man, or end that experiment. You're down to 6 quality defenseman, and your system is still pretty good at other positions.


You have the flexibility to move one of these guys, but there's no rush to do it, and the Erixon trade does not automatically mean there's another deal involving one of our defenseman coming anytime soon.

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06-03-2011, 05:59 PM
  #10
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The goaltending and overall defense from the better teams in the EC make going "all defense" a pretty poor strategy, not even considering these deals.

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06-03-2011, 06:01 PM
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Well, that's 2:00 I will never get back

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06-03-2011, 06:04 PM
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Well, that's 2:00 I will never get back


It's absolutely dead at my office so I figured I would spend the time to analyze the details of these blockbusters.

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06-03-2011, 06:10 PM
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Isn't there a fantasy thread for this stuff? I have no one to blame but myself for opening a thread that proposes trading for Hedman and Doughty, when neither team has given any indication for moving either player, especially when both players are under control for at least another four years by their respective teams.

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06-03-2011, 06:11 PM
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as soon as i read stepan

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06-03-2011, 06:14 PM
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Come on Bern! We had this discussion earlier in the Trades Board.. Its not a good idea, end of story. Our issue is with our offense not our defense.

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06-03-2011, 06:19 PM
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I said this once, and ill say it again one last time.. Since its already in the Trade Rumours and Free Agents board with the same proposal..

I just dont see it as a win-win at all.. Giving up those players opens up to many holes for us to fill.. While Hedman does NOT fill any of our holes. Hedman has all the raw skill and talent but how many of those type of players never live up to their potential? I do believe Hedman is way overrated, otherwise in the years he has been playing he should have broken the 30pt mark or become better defensively which he has yet to do with either situation. Meanwhile, i cant believe your actually advocating that Hedman possibly be moved to wing. He does NOT have the ability to do so.. thats like moving Gilroy to wing on the rangers. It was a completely failed experiment and just dumb to do. Can you name any players who were defenseman in the league that turned into a forward? I cant..

Yes i believe that Hedman is a better overall player than MDZ but MDZ creates the same offense that Hedman has and even had better numbers than him so far. Then MZA can become a solid 3rd liner which always can be replaced.. But Thomas is the main reason i wouldnt do this deal. I see Thomas as a Zach Parise clone, and is right up there with krieder to be a top line player. You dont trade those types of prospects when your NOT getting a 1st line player in return. Regardless of anything, our need is at forward NOT defense.
I understand that he has the size and skill that cant be taught, i completely agree with you but fact still remains that his offensive game that everyone talked up so much is non existant and no offense but his defensive skills and positioning and all that really hasnt made the progress that everyone has been expecting.. Would i take Hedman over MDZ... sure.. but not at the cost of Thomas sorry.

I think MDZ will be just fine and in his rookie season he had basically TWICE as many pts as Hedman does in his 2 full season.. PLUS Hedman plays for the much more offensively talented team. Showing by his pts totals on the PP, Hedman isnt the answer for our PP woes either.

You can have your opinion on Thomas just like i have my own opinion on him. I think thomas is a special player that has put up GREAT pts while being a good two way player and not playing on a very talented team. I think the kid can be great and would rather take the chance that he will develop with Stepan since they had SICK chemistry together. Rather than trying to beef up our defense more. Our defense is VERY good and VERY young already. If we want a REAL SERIOUS upgrade on defense then wait till next years free agent crop were there will be players that are alil older but much better both ways such as Brent Burns.

MZA i have to disagree with you again, he is not a 4th line player. He is a 3rd line player with upside. The only reason he cooled off was bc he hit the wall like all rookies usually do in their first season. He has alot of talent but at most can be a 2nd line player.

Our issues again, is our offense, the problem of not having an actual 1st line.. We only have one 1st line player in Gaborik, otherwise we are a blue collar team that will work your ass off. What we desperately need is that 1st line talent. If any trades were to be made it should be for a forward not a defenseman. Idk what player i would try to trade for but offering Thomas in a deal is a bad idea. Him and Krieder can be those missing 1st line talents we need. Otherwise i have no problem dealing MDZ, MZA, 15th overall, and Grachev for something special. Maybe that wouldnt get what we need and we would have to add something more but no chance do i trade Krieder or thomas UNLESS we get a 1st line talented FORWARD.

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06-03-2011, 06:20 PM
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I like how people think TB would love MZA to "replace" StM Louis. Just cause they are both small?

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06-03-2011, 06:24 PM
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Nothing realistic about either of these deals.

Tampa will not part with Hedman--not for that package. He's going to be the kingpin of their future defense. He's Marc Staal--might even turn out better.

Trading what almost seems like half our roster for Doughty is absurd. Not sure even whether Girardi is included or not. From the listed players--no--but then the OP starts talking about him as if he is. LA does not need one of our goalies not named Lundqvist. They have much more depth at that position than we do and the likes of Kundratek would not be much of an addition to their defensive prospect stable which might be the deepest in the league. In HF's organizational prospect rankings guess which team came in No. 1?

And losing Gaborik, Stepan decimates our offense. No question about it. The idea that Tommy Grant--a free agent signing fresh out of college might be NHL ready is a real reach. Maybe the OP knows more about him than I do but I'm kind of thinking if he ever does make it it is a few years away.

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06-03-2011, 06:24 PM
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I've got a head ache from looking at this.

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06-03-2011, 06:39 PM
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I'd rather not trade Stepan no reason to trade our youth. Keep building through youth and don't give up on things that work

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06-03-2011, 06:44 PM
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Hedman is really not as good as most people seem to think he is.

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06-03-2011, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
Hedman is really not as good as most people seem to think he is.
Too soon to tell only his 2nd season. Expectations and criticisms need to be tempered a bit, a few more years and we'll see how good or bad he really is.

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06-03-2011, 06:53 PM
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Old
06-03-2011, 06:54 PM
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Hedman is really not as good as most people seem to think he is.
He's 20 and looks pretty damn good to me.

What did Staal, Girardi, etc look like at age 20? And still he had a decent year logging 20-25 minutes.

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06-03-2011, 07:01 PM
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That offense is a complete joke. Grachev Boyle Prust as a 2nd line in the NHL? LOL

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