HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

SCENARIO: Let's say Clarke was wrong and Hatcher doesn't fit well in the new NHL...

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-22-2005, 11:07 AM
  #76
Arastiroth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Manhattan
Country: United States
Posts: 1,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Frugal Gourmet
As I said above, I will be the first to admit that Hatcher is a useful defenseman. Great for clearing the crease. Intimidating for teams that cycle out of the corners. Probably would make a decent guy for mid-range ice time.

However, there's no question his Norris candidacy was a result of stats and not his play. Even if you reject my analysis of his waning skills, you cannot possibly have really observed the Stars and not thought he was significantly better when he was younger, the Stars were winning President's Trophies, and he wasn't getting nominated.
That came off a little worse than I intended, I was trying to hurry up. I'll take your word for it that he looked worse, I never watch Dallas too much. I actually really was curious if he got nominated on reputation/stats or on actual production, since many awards are often given on reputation and stats as opposed to watching the players play.

Hopefully for the Flyers sake he is at least usable, even if he isn't quite up to the level he was in Dallas. I never really cared for Hatcher much, though. We'll see how he does.

Arastiroth is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 11:08 AM
  #77
Hockeycanada*
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chara
Add to that list - Malakhov and Mogilny in NJ for about 3.5M each
That division sure is overpaying defensemen. What's up with that?

Hockeycanada* is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 11:27 AM
  #78
MotFly27
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 44
vCash: 500
Hatcher

This basically comes down to what people believe is going to happen in the new
NHL.

Those that think big physical defensemen are going to be obsolete because
of the new rules and no red line, will think Hatcher and Rathje were bad signings.
I also happen to think many of those that say they "believe" that are really just hoping that is the case and just don't want the Flyers to be better.

I'm in the other camp. The game is going to flow better and there will be more scoring chances. That's a given. But for people to think that physical defensemen
will have no value--especially in the eastern conference--are fooling themselves.
The Flyers have 4 guys on the BL that can skate with anyone: Desjardins,
Johnsson, Pitkanen and Seidenberg. Hatcher and Rathje will be paired with 2 of those guys and asked to do the dirty work in the corners and in front of the net.
Neither one is going to see a minute of ice time on the PP or 4-on-4.
As someone intelligently pointed out--they were brought in to add size to the BL
that was lacking for the Flyers in '04. People will think twice about camping in front
of the net with them back there. Is Hatcher the player we was 5 years ago?
Absolutely not. If he's healthy, does he add a dimension that every team needs to win a cup? Yes. He's not a Norris Trophy candidate anymore, but they don't need him to be. They went to G7 of the ECF with 4 healthy d-men and a winger playing
back there. Hitchcock said if they had one healthy physical defensemen against
Tampa, they win that series. I'll take his word for it.
Does anybody really believe Ken Hitchcock would bring in 2 guys that just can't play anymore?

MotFly27 is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 11:35 AM
  #79
Pens1566
Registered User
 
Pens1566's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: WV
Country: United States
Posts: 11,618
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaineer
I watched him win a cup as a key piece of the Stars not so long ago. Haven't seen the Flames win anything since 1989. His knee was an excuse? that's just dumb. So you thing Bob Clarke just decided to give him 3.5 million expecting to get the same performance as his worst year in the league? Don't you think somebody in the Flyers organization had a look at his knee/saw him skate/anything before giving him this contract? Come on back to the finals this year and see how bad he sucks. The Flames were a hard-working fluke with a goalie that got hot IMO and were simply outclassed by the Lightning.
Hatcher is being traded to the sens? Is this in a rumor thread????

Pens1566 is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 11:59 AM
  #80
MotFly27
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 44
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pens1566
Hatcher is being traded to the sens? Is this in a rumor thread????
Ottawa never wins a cup until they get some more heart in that locker room.

MotFly27 is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 12:02 PM
  #81
Steve L*
Registered User
 
Steve L*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Southampton, England
Country: England
Posts: 11,548
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotFly27
Ottawa never wins a cup until they get some more heart in that locker room.
or manage to avoid the Leafs in the playoffs (which may not be a problem this year)

Steve L* is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 12:09 PM
  #82
Master Shake
Registered User
 
Master Shake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kazakhstan
Posts: 1,765
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear
In this scenario, how much would the Flyers have to give up to trade him off their team if the new NHL eats him alive (even though I don't think this will happen).

He has a 4 year contract for 3.5 million a year I believe.

Funny part of this all is, the NHL expects the cap to drop to 35 mill next season

Master Shake is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 12:10 PM
  #83
MotFly27
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 44
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
or manage to avoid the Leafs in the playoffs (which may not be a problem this year)

Great points...both of them.

Ottawa has all the talent in the world but always ends
up playing a team more willing to pay the price.
Toronto had no business beating them in '04.
They simply wanted it more.

MotFly27 is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 12:14 PM
  #84
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
Funny part of this all is, the NHL expects the cap to drop to 35 mill next season
For that to be the case the NHL would have to drop from $2.2 Billion in revenues in 2003-04 down to $1.525 Billion in revenues in 2005-06. That would be a 30% drop in revenues, and I don't see that happening at all.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 12:16 PM
  #85
Jaded-Fan
Registered User
 
Jaded-Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,950
vCash: 500
I do not think that anyone here (or almost anyone here) thinks that Hatcher is a useless pickup, or that he has no skills at all. The question is whether his use and skills are equal to his reputation and that contract in this Cap environment. Most here seem to think no to that question. I would take it one further. All of the defenseman that Philly signed have skill and are name players, but for the most part have some questions that Hatcher also brings to the table, how will what they do best translate to this new cap environment. I would say that had Philly not made the coup of signing Forsberg, who even with his questions was a wonderful signing, Philly would be taking much more heat for this off-season both in who they focused on to sign and especially how much they paid. This is especially true when you think of some of what they lost from 2003-4. The team absent Forsberg is very likely not as strong as it had been 2003-4 unless those two rookies really really step up in ways that rookies seldom do.


Last edited by Jaded-Fan: 08-22-2005 at 12:22 PM.
Jaded-Fan is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 12:19 PM
  #86
Master Shake
Registered User
 
Master Shake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kazakhstan
Posts: 1,765
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
I do not think that anyone here (or almost anyone here) thinks that Hatcher is a useless pickup, or that he has no skills at all. The question is whether his use and skills are equal to his reputation and that contract in this Cap environment. Most here seem to think no to that question. I would take it one further. All of the defenseman that Philly signed have skill and are name players, but for the most part have some questions that Hatcher also brings to the table, how will what they do best translate to this new cap environment. I would say that had Philly not made the coup of signing Forsberg, who even with his questions was a wonderful signing, Philly would be taking much more heat for this off-season both in who they focused on to sign and especially how much they paid. This is especially true when you think of some of what they lost from 2002-3. The team absent Forsberg is very likely not as strong as it had been 2002-3 unless those two rookies really really step up in ways that rookies seldom do.

Hatcher has sucked for the last 3 years. I was thrilled the Flyers signed him.

Master Shake is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 12:20 PM
  #87
Jaded-Fan
Registered User
 
Jaded-Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,950
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
For that to be the case the NHL would have to drop from $2.2 Billion in revenues in 2003-04 down to $1.525 Billion in revenues in 2005-06. That would be a 30% drop in revenues, and I don't see that happening at all.

In most cities hockey revenues look to be much higher, if you look at the positive buzz this August with this FA free for all. My Pens look to be up significantly in revenues, I would not be surprised if it were by well over 50%. I am guessing that is true across the board. Now, in big markets was there a commensurate drop in interest/sales? I do not see it despite the chicken little predictions of those big market fans pre-lockout settlement. Boy were they wrong, weren't they?

Except for the ticket price reductions, I see no indications of anything that would reduce revenues and in fact everything else shows an increased interest in the sport which should raise revenues.

Jaded-Fan is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 12:32 PM
  #88
MotFly27
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 44
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
I do not think that anyone here (or almost anyone here) thinks that Hatcher is a useless pickup, or that he has no skills at all. The question is whether his use and skills are equal to his reputation and that contract in this Cap environment. Most here seem to think no to that question. I would take it one further. All of the defenseman that Philly signed have skill and are name players, but for the most part have some questions that Hatcher also brings to the table, how will what they do best translate to this new cap environment. I would say that had Philly not made the coup of signing Forsberg, who even with his questions was a wonderful signing, Philly would be taking much more heat for this off-season both in who they focused on to sign and especially how much they paid. This is especially true when you think of some of what they lost from 2002-3. The team absent Forsberg is very likely not as strong as it had been 2002-3 unless those two rookies really really step up in ways that rookies seldom do.
All fair points. Forsberg took the focus away from Hatcher.
The money they gave Hatcher may hurt later, but we'll wait and see.
Talk here was that Foote was really their first choice
on D but he took the money and ran with Columbus.
As far as the rookies, I won't expect too much from
Richards this year but Carter is probably gonna play with
Forsberg and Gagne on the first line. If he plays
a full season with them he gets 50 points by accident, if not
more. Keep in mind, Flyers were a game from the Finals
in '04 with one player over 60 points and playing the playoffs with basically
4 healthy d-men.

MotFly27 is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 12:49 PM
  #89
Roger's Pancreas*
 
Roger's Pancreas*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 13,363
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Roger's Pancreas*
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotFly27
All fair points. Forsberg took the focus away from Hatcher.
The money they gave Hatcher may hurt later, but we'll wait and see.
Talk here was that Foote was really their first choice
on D but he took the money and ran with Columbus.
As far as the rookies, I won't expect too much from
Richards this year but Carter is probably gonna play with
Forsberg and Gagne on the first line. If he plays
a full season with them he gets 50 points by accident, if not
more. Keep in mind, Flyers were a game from the Finals
in '04 with one player over 60 points and playing the playoffs with basically
4 healthy d-men.
The Flyers were playing with ONE healthy D-man. Malakhov had a concussion and only missed a game of the second round. Markov had a nagging shoulder injury which he later had operated on during the off season. Pitkanen received a concussion during the playoffs against the Lightning. Johnsson had a broken hand and was still logging 26+ minutes a night. Ragnarsson had a broken finger and missed games three to seven of the Lightning series. Seidenberg had a broken leg and was out the entire season including the playoffs. Finally, Desjardins came back from a broken arm only to have the plate re-brake and miss the remainder of the playoffs. The only healthy defenseman was Mattias Timander who is a call-up defenseman.

I'm sure I butchered the English language but deal with it.

Roger's Pancreas* is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 01:07 PM
  #90
jb**
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Planet Lovetron
Country: Italy
Posts: 8,556
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
The Flyers were playing with ONE healthy D-man. Malakhov had a concussion and only missed a game of the second round. Markov had a nagging shoulder injury which he later had operated on during the off season. Pitkanen received a concussion during the playoffs against the Lightning. Johnsson had a broken hand and was still logging 26+ minutes a night. Ragnarsson had a broken finger and missed games three to seven of the Lightning series. Seidenberg had a broken leg and was out the entire season including the playoffs. Finally, Desjardins came back from a broken arm only to have the plate re-brake and miss the remainder of the playoffs. The only healthy defenseman was Mattias Timander who is a call-up defenseman.

I'm sure I butchered the English language but deal with it.
Didn't Ragnarsson miss the entire series against the Lightning. Pitkannen was hurt before that series I think. Markov was relatively healthy, everone is dinged at that time of year, but they were really banged up. Seidenberg did dress for a game or 2 against Tampa or the Leafs think TB but was ineffective, coming off like you said broken leg.

jb** is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 01:50 PM
  #91
MotFly27
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 44
vCash: 500
The point to all this is that I don't think anyone expects Hatcher to
be the player he was 5 years ago. If his knee is healthy, he will fill
the role he was brought here for: net-clearing, stay at home, "don't skate with
your head down" defensemen. He's not going to see any minutes on the PP or
in 4 on 4 situations. Hitchcock's teams are always defensive-minded and Hatcher is not going to be left on island very often against the other teams top players. Is he going to get beat for some goals this year? It's an 82 game season,
I'm sure it'll happen plenty but that's hockey. The bottom line is this team has a great blend of veterans (Primeau, Desjardins, Kapanen, Knuble) guys entering their prime (Gagne, Handzus, Johnsson, Esche) and talented youth expected to contribute (Carter, Richards, Sharp, Pitkanen, Seidenberg). Oh yeah, and when healthy the best player in the world. The only question for the Flyers is health.

MotFly27 is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 01:50 PM
  #92
Darth Milbury
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Darth Milbury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Searching for Kvasha
Country: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 38,140
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisher
I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but only a fraction of a bought-out salary counts against a team's cap. Probably 1/2 or 2/3, still, not worth buying out unless it's absolutely necessary.
2/3 projected over twice the length of the contract. For that entire time, it would be a hit against the cap.

Darth Milbury is offline  
Old
08-22-2005, 11:24 PM
  #93
kdb209
Global Moderator
 
kdb209's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
In most cities hockey revenues look to be much higher, if you look at the positive buzz this August with this FA free for all. My Pens look to be up significantly in revenues, I would not be surprised if it were by well over 50%. I am guessing that is true across the board. Now, in big markets was there a commensurate drop in interest/sales? I do not see it despite the chicken little predictions of those big market fans pre-lockout settlement. Boy were they wrong, weren't they?

Except for the ticket price reductions, I see no indications of anything that would reduce revenues and in fact everything else shows an increased interest in the sport which should raise revenues.
Yes, there is buzz and an increase in revenues in Pittsburgh and maybe Nashville and a few other places that made a big splash in the FA market, but don't forget that there are 20+ other teams. Many teams took a significant hit in season ticket base and it is yet to see how long that will take to recover.

For example, the Sharks cut ticket prices by >10% and still had a season ticket renewal rate of only about 80-85%.

The new Comcast/OLN deal is about a wash with the expired ESPN one, but the revenue sharing NBC deal is less compared with the ABC network deal. On top of that local TV deals and advertising may very well have been negotiated downward.

Before this frenzy, many people were speculating that the estimate of $1.7B in league revenues was very optimistic.

And starting next year, the spread between the cap and floor is dropping $1.5M - that will lower the cap by $750K all other things being equal.

It's too early to get too optimistic on the revenue front.

kdb209 is offline  
Old
08-23-2005, 12:21 PM
  #94
RealFalconsSupporter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: New England
Country: United States
Posts: 173
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear
In this scenario, how much would the Flyers have to give up to trade him off their team if the new NHL eats him alive (even though I don't think this will happen).

He has a 4 year contract for 3.5 million a year I believe.
I think this will turn out to be one of Clarkes and Hitchcooks worst all time moves. Look for Hatcher who was starting to struggle in the old NHL really struggle in the new NHL after 18 months off and coming off an injury. Just watch the way he contained his check in old highlight films and you can see him hold or hook just about everytime. Look for many D to play their way out of the NHL in the new era of hockey.

RealFalconsSupporter is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:37 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.