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Dean Lombardi On Improving The Team

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Old
06-05-2011, 01:55 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
HF Organization Ranking Fall 2006
2. LA Kings

2005/6 Season Record
LA Kings 42-35-5 89 points 4th Pacific Division, 10th Western Conference

DL earning that paycheck....

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06-05-2011, 01:58 AM
  #102
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DL earning that paycheck....
Yep, and worth every penny so far.

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06-05-2011, 09:42 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP View Post
When was the last time that the Kings finished with 107 points? I'll save you the effort - NEVER
How about the best back to back seasons in Kings history? 101 points and 98 points.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP View Post
HF Organization Ranking Fall 2006
2. LA Kings

2005/6 Season Record
LA Kings 42-35-5 89 points 4th Pacific Division, 10th Western Conference
So, Dean took a non-playoff team and turned it into a playoff team that is younger than the team in 2005/6 and still has a top ranked prospect pool.

That is success.


You are acting like the Kings are some kind of storied franchise and Dean has destroyed it. The Kings were the Clippers of the NHL for a long time and I feel that Dean has turned a corner for the franchise, players are willing to sign here and re-sign at a discount. This doesn't mean the Kings will win the cup with him as GM, but Tallon didn't win a cup in Chicago either. The builder doesn't always get the ultimate price, but I think the Kings are in their best position to win it all in their history.


How does Murray fit into the equation for you? Do you think that Murray is getting the most out of the roster that Dean has given him?

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06-05-2011, 10:53 AM
  #104
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I have been seeing all types of arguments about Dean and the organization and all. All have valid points. Whether it is AEG's budget or Dean's decision making or coaching, is what holding the Kings to the next level. Whatever it is, by the end of the day it's not HOW you get there that matters. Just get the job done is how it will be perceived and judged by the owners and our peers.

It just boils downs to winning..... going past the first round and eventually win the Lord Stanley.

GMs have different philosophies, level of systematic "risk levels" they are willing to pull the trigger on deals and free agents. I came to realize neither side is right or wrong. We can have the best argument. But that's about it.

The important thing to find out is what time frame AEG has given Dean to win the Cup or at least go past the first round and how much budget can Dean work with.

Those are the two critical things we need to know. Then, once we do, I believe everyone can have a more constructive and intelligent conversation and discussion.

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06-05-2011, 11:29 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
How about the best back to back seasons in Kings history? 101 points and 98 points.
This is so flawed and surprised someone like you would use this stat. How many Kings teams in the past had the benefit of a shootout and a loser point. I'll leave JT to break it down further.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
So, Dean took a non-playoff team and turned it into a playoff team that is younger than the team in 2005/6 and still has a top ranked prospect pool.

That is success.
Success is winning playoff series and ultimately championships. Not losing in the first round but having a top prospect pool. That got Taylor fired, and if the Kings fail to win a playoff series this season it should get Lombardi fired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
How does Murray fit into the equation for you? Do you think that Murray is getting the most out of the roster that Dean has given him?
Murray is a terrible coach with an archaic system, but please, lets not act like Lombardi has given him anything close to a contending roster. The Kings roster has more flaws than the Maginot Line.

Right as Murray got here Lombardi had just traded two of the best players on the team, players who have since gone on to A) Lead all NHL d-man in scoring B) Have an 80 point season. The combined return was a 3rd pairing d-man, 3rd line center and a draft pick that flopped.

Murray in three years has never had the services of a true #1 LW or a true #2 center. Kind of hard to expect anyone to win without those key components.

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06-05-2011, 11:36 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP View Post
HF Organization Ranking Fall 2006
2. LA Kings

2005/6 Season Record
LA Kings 42-35-5 89 points 4th Pacific Division, 10th Western Conference
What you implying? That the franchise was in a good position when DL took over?


Here's your own words on that state of the organization when DT left:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP 08-06-2006 View Post
I'm not sure it could be much worse. He gutted the pipeline hoping to hold on for another season, but all he managed to do was cripple the future.
On the young players in the organization when DT left:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP on 08-07-2006 View Post
Your list has 4 players with NHL experience, 2 with a "cup of joe" in the show, and a whole bunch of "maybes". That's nice, but IMO those results could have been matched with anyone using any of the prospect rating publications instead of the army of scouts the Kings have employed.

If you set the bar low enough, you will always succeed
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=278230

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06-05-2011, 12:55 PM
  #107
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What you implying? That the franchise was in a good position when DL took over?
I wasn't implying anything. I was disputing tantrum4's claim:

Quote:
So taking a team that was dead last with no prospects in the minors to back to back 100 point (almost) playoffs seasons and the #1 ranked prospects by HF, all while having one of the youngest teams in the league is doing nothing? Wow, tough crowd.
The team wasn't dead last and they did have some prospects - not all in the minors, but the Kings had them playing on the big club or they were playing in Europe or juniors (e.g., Kopitar)

Both of those quotes are 5 years old - before Kopitar had played a single minute in the NHL. DL also traded some other existing assets for quality prospects - it's one of the things that he did very well early in his reign.

DT did give away a number of assets toward the end in an attempt to save his job - that was unforgiveable, but he didn't leave the franchise as void of assets as many of you claim now.

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06-05-2011, 01:01 PM
  #108
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July 8th 2001-the day I lost faith in Davey Taylor.
http://http://articles.latimes.com/2...ports/sp-20004

Brett Hull? No. Jaromir Jagr? No way. Eric Lindros? Are you kidding me? Randy Robitaille!

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06-05-2011, 01:13 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
How about the best back to back seasons in Kings history? 101 points and 98 points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
This is so flawed and surprised someone like you would use this stat. How many Kings teams in the past had the benefit of a shootout and a loser point.
Comparing apples to apples, the 2009/10 record with wins - losses - ties is 32-27-23, good for 87 points.

The 2010/11 season record without the OT and SO points would be 35-30-17, also good for 87 points.

Those are hardly the best in Kings history...

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06-05-2011, 01:18 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herby View Post
This is so flawed and surprised someone like you would use this stat. How many Kings teams in the past had the benefit of a shootout and a loser point. I'll leave JT to break it down further.
How about some context? My response was to PSP assertion that Phoenix was more successful with 107 points a couple of seasons ago. Same shootout for them too.

Back to back playoffs for this franchise is a success. And of course they aren't done yet. The core is still very young and growing together.

You're not encouraged with Clifford's growth last season? Kopitar? Brown?

An in shape Doughty and Penner? The team isn't as bad as you make it sound. Their entire top six can score 20+ goals. It is the bottom six that Murray needs to let play with possession and stop the dump, recover and point shot offense.

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06-05-2011, 01:21 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Comparing apples to apples, the 2009/10 record with wins - losses - ties is 32-27-23, good for 87 points.

The 2010/11 season record without the OT and SO points would be 35-30-17, also good for 87 points.

Those are hardly the best in Kings history...
How about the Phoenix 107 points you used as you asseriton that they are better than the Kings? The shootout is here and every team uses it to inflate their points. A playoff spot is a playoff spot.

Philly went from a shootout win to the finals. Think they care about the shootout inflating their points? Finish in the top 8 of the conference is the goal of every team. Being a top 3 seed should be the Kings primary goal this next season. This will give them the best shot at the second round.

The Kings didn't have a very good season when they went to the finals. 3rd in their division.

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06-05-2011, 03:00 PM
  #112
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Sydor,

You are wasting your time and energy bud, they have a hate on that they will never get rid of, LA can win the cup next year and they will still find something negative about the team, (it took them too long) (they didn't sweep any teams) (DL now has the last draft pick) etc, I have yet to find PSP or Herby say anything positive about the Kings and the direction they are headed in.

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06-05-2011, 06:46 PM
  #113
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Sydor,

You are wasting your time and energy bud, they have a hate on that they will never get rid of, LA can win the cup next year and they will still find something negative about the team, (it took them too long) (they didn't sweep any teams) (DL now has the last draft pick) etc, I have yet to find PSP or Herby say anything positive about the Kings and the direction they are headed in.
I wouldn't go that far. PSP reminds me of Benjamin from Animal Farm. Been around so long that he doesn't care about nonsense. Always sees the down side of every issue because more often than not he's heard the exact same spiel before and it's all turned out the same way. That is, poorly. He's just looking for proof that things are going to work out and the only way for that to happen is if the Kings win the cup.

Herby I can't figure out to save my life. It's almost like Lombardi did something to him personally to offend him. But he is a Kings fan. You don't spend that much time on these boards and not be.

And I want to stress that I don't know either of them.

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06-05-2011, 07:05 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Comparing apples to apples, the 2009/10 record with wins - losses - ties is 32-27-23, good for 87 points.

The 2010/11 season record without the OT and SO points would be 35-30-17, also good for 87 points.

Those are hardly the best in Kings history...
The problem with adjusting out the OT and SO points is that team play differently knowing that those two opportunities are available to them. Sure they used to do the same thing under the old OT system but you simply can't with any real accuracy claim the way the games and OT's would have gone. I do see your point though and agree that during the last two seasons that we weren't exactly looking at a 100+point team under the old system but then the same could be said about most every team in the league.

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06-05-2011, 07:12 PM
  #115
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Murray is a terrible coach with an archaic system, but please, lets not act like Lombardi has given him anything close to a contending roster. The Kings roster has more flaws than the Maginot Line.
Huh?

For the team TM has been given he should have produced more then he has, that is for certain in my opinion. Rather or not we have been actual contenders can be argued both ways. If TM were an actual elite coach he could have taken this team that has the best D corp in the game and two of the best goalies along with one of the top 5 centers and two of the best RW's in the game and done more than what he has with them.

TM is at best an average coach and that is why he will always at best get average results until his team is one of the most dominant teams in the league. He has to have a fully loaded over talented team in order for his archaic system to have any chance at success. We see eye to eye on that but not when it comes to how legitimate of a contender we have been and now are.

I agree that DL has made his mistakes, the squid mistake is his biggest in my opinion even ahead of Cloutier but other than that his triumph's have been significantly greater.

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06-05-2011, 07:21 PM
  #116
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How about some context? My response was to PSP assertion that Phoenix was more successful with 107 points a couple of seasons ago. Same shootout for them too.

Back to back playoffs for this franchise is a success. And of course they aren't done yet. The core is still very young and growing together.

You're not encouraged with Clifford's growth last season? Kopitar? Brown?

An in shape Doughty and Penner? The team isn't as bad as you make it sound. Their entire top six can score 20+ goals. It is the bottom six that Murray needs to let play with possession and stop the dump, recover and point shot offense.
I agree.

Give Cliffy the chance to have some confidence in his game and for F'sake consistent line mates and I don't think it out of reach for him to score 15 goals this coming season. Simmonds should do the same at least (if he can stop feeling so irie) and so can/should Lewis/Richie. That is one mean and productive 3rd line by the way and one that would be a great one on any contender.

Our 4rth line has excellent potential too and then when you through in JJ and DD's 10/20 goals along with the rest we are right there among the top two teams in the league in goals scored.

We are a contender and this coming year is going to be the first in a very long time that we will see it. There will still be ups and downs but by the end of the season we will be ready.

The growth of Lewis, A Mart and Clifford should be enough for anyone to be happy but add in Loktionov who looks ready to step in and play at an NHL level as well as Schenn Holloway and Kozun and we are looking good again.

The next season (11/12) is where we will explode. With Toffi Vey Kitsyn and Des all ready (or really should be) to step in and become exceptional NHL rookies and one or two of them might be even elite talents to boot we are looking at exactly what we have all been dreaming imo and that is a great to exceptional player at every position all pretty much home grown and ready to win it all.

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06-05-2011, 07:33 PM
  #117
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The next season (11/12) is where we will explode. With Toffi Vey Kitsyn and Des all ready (or really should be) to step in and become exceptional NHL rookies and one or two of them might be even elite talents to boot we are looking at exactly what we have all been dreaming imo and that is a great to exceptional player at every position all pretty much home grown and ready to win it all.
I am looking forward to it and hoping that it will happen - not convinced, but I hope that you are correct

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06-05-2011, 07:35 PM
  #118
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It's scary that most of you don't understand my motivation. It's not that I want the Kings to fail - it's the exact opposite. I want them to win more than anything. I'm just not fully on board with faith above actual performance

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06-05-2011, 08:21 PM
  #119
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I think there's a lot to get excited about next season. I don't want Richards. I would like to see both Loktionov and Schenn in the lineup.

Penner-Kopitar-Williams
Smyth-Loktionov-Brown
Parse-Stoll-Simmonds
Clifford-Schenn-Lewis
Richardson, Westgarth

Scuderi-Doughty
Mitchell-Johnson
Greene-Martinez
Voynov

Quick/Bernier


Younger and better. Just like Deano said.

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06-05-2011, 08:35 PM
  #120
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I'm just not fully on board with faith above actual performance
... And that's the real crux of the whole issue. I'm not ready to give Lombardi credit for things he hasn't done yet - some are, and have already. Good for you if you have, but good luck trying to convince other people to do the same.

I recall seeing a post that made Lombardi out to be a polarizing figure among Kings' fans. I think the reason for this has little to do with Dean himself and more to do with fans simply wanting to be polarized. Some feel that Lombardi is a great GM, and if someone disagrees with that, he automatically is labeled as someone who thinks Dean is a failure. I've called him an average GM over and over again for almost a couple years on this BB, and to this day I'm called out as being anti-Lombardi. I don't think he's been a failure, but I also certainly don't think he's been anything special as a GM and that his actual results don't come anywhere close to backing up his personal arrogance.

The Kings had a very poor team on the ice for the first three seasons, and Dean reaped the appropriate draft picks. He traded established players for more picks and prospects. Given that, I would expect Dean to improve the organizational talent base. Wouldn't you? What else would he have to do?

The Kings' record was 36-39-7 without the shootout before Dean took over. This season, it was 36-34-12 without it. Exact same number of regulation/OT wins, and they turned some losses into ties. Forgive me if I'm not doing cartwheels over such modest on-ice improvement after five years.

Yes, they've made the playoffs two seasons in a row. They've been lower-tier playoff teams who have made the playoffs largely because of the contributions of certain players (their best player, their captain, their #1 goalie) who were in place before Dean got here. Sure, he's made some good free-agent signings to help the team. He's also made some poor ones in his time here. He's made some good trades; he's also made some stinkers. He's let some good players in certain roles get away and now finds himself short of quality in those roles.

My favorite players on the Kings are Simmonds and Bernier ... I've made this pretty well known here. Those were Lombardi's drafts, and they were excellent. But Dean has also hired a coach who doesn't seem to know or care to use either man properly. Shouldn't the responsibility for that fall on the GM? Of course it should. Why does a GM who has made his main focus to be one of building with youth from within have a head coach who would rather play a veteran over a young player in almost every scenario, unless that young player is highly heralded (e.g. Kopitar, Doughty, Johnson)? Isn't that running contrary to the plan of the organization?

Anyway. I don't expect the people who sing the same tune time after time ("Dean's worth every penny!") to change their tune or be objective any time soon. I don't expect to suddenly not be labeled anti-Lombardi. I don't have a problem giving credit for real success when it actually takes place. But - I'm not doing it until it happens, and I'm not treating this as a black-white, love-hate thing. I've liked some of the things Dean has done, and I've disliked other things. It's that simple.

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06-05-2011, 08:58 PM
  #121
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It's sad that we are reveling in being average for the last 2 seasons as some kind of accomplishment.

If 16 out of 30 teams make the payoffs, the bottom 5 or 6 teams are nothing more than average at best. It really isn't much of an accomplishment ...

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06-05-2011, 09:09 PM
  #122
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I am looking forward to it and hoping that it will happen - not convinced, but I hope that you are correct
That's cool PSP.

I completely get where you are coming from and others too. I am provided a really rare opportunity to get an exceptionally close look at hockeys young up and coming players and even more so our own so I am through this rare opportunity provided the ability to develop my opinion based on what I actually see rather than the rantings of a guy like me on the internet.

While I bost about what I see in some of our prospects you probably notice that there are a ton of them that I typically leave out and that is due to their either being what I deem to be everyday or worse prospects.

Not all of them are great and of the great nobody knows for certain which will actually live up to their full NHL potential so your cautious nature is actually a smart one to have as far as I see things anyways.

Out of all of our kids including Schenn the only one that I see being a dead to rights lock to succeed at a much better than average level in the NHL (barring injuries) is Deslauriers. The rest have as good a shot as anyone and are as I see them in my opinion but ND is special.

I agree with your hesitation and think its not only right but reasonable too.

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06-05-2011, 09:13 PM
  #123
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It's sad that we are reveling in being average for the last 2 seasons as some kind of accomplishment.

If 16 out of 30 teams make the payoffs, the bottom 5 or 6 teams are nothing more than average at best. It really isn't much of an accomplishment ...
Yet you said Phoenix was more successful than the Kings.

Dean said he would slow build and he has done that. The results from the next two seasons will decide if he keeps his job. Two more early exits and I believe he will be gone, but he deserves two more seasons in my mind. Murray gets one.

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06-05-2011, 09:23 PM
  #124
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... And that's the real crux of the whole issue. I'm not ready to give Lombardi credit for things he hasn't done yet - some are, and have already. Good for you if you have, but good luck trying to convince other people to do the same.

I recall seeing a post that made Lombardi out to be a polarizing figure among Kings' fans. I think the reason for this has little to do with Dean himself and more to do with fans simply wanting to be polarized. Some feel that Lombardi is a great GM, and if someone disagrees with that, he automatically is labeled as someone who thinks Dean is a failure. I've called him an average GM over and over again for almost a couple years on this BB, and to this day I'm called out as being anti-Lombardi. I don't think he's been a failure, but I also certainly don't think he's been anything special as a GM and that his actual results don't come anywhere close to backing up his personal arrogance.

The Kings had a very poor team on the ice for the first three seasons, and Dean reaped the appropriate draft picks. He traded established players for more picks and prospects. Given that, I would expect Dean to improve the organizational talent base. Wouldn't you? What else would he have to do?

The Kings' record was 36-39-7 without the shootout before Dean took over. This season, it was 36-34-12 without it. Exact same number of regulation/OT wins, and they turned some losses into ties. Forgive me if I'm not doing cartwheels over such modest on-ice improvement after five years.

Yes, they've made the playoffs two seasons in a row. They've been lower-tier playoff teams who have made the playoffs largely because of the contributions of certain players (their best player, their captain, their #1 goalie) who were in place before Dean got here. Sure, he's made some good free-agent signings to help the team. He's also made some poor ones in his time here. He's made some good trades; he's also made some stinkers. He's let some good players in certain roles get away and now finds himself short of quality in those roles.

My favorite players on the Kings are Simmonds and Bernier ... I've made this pretty well known here. Those were Lombardi's drafts, and they were excellent. But Dean has also hired a coach who doesn't seem to know or care to use either man properly. Shouldn't the responsibility for that fall on the GM? Of course it should. Why does a GM who has made his main focus to be one of building with youth from within have a head coach who would rather play a veteran over a young player in almost every scenario, unless that young player is highly heralded (e.g. Kopitar, Doughty, Johnson)? Isn't that running contrary to the plan of the organization?

Anyway. I don't expect the people who sing the same tune time after time ("Dean's worth every penny!") to change their tune or be objective any time soon. I don't expect to suddenly not be labeled anti-Lombardi. I don't have a problem giving credit for real success when it actually takes place. But - I'm not doing it until it happens, and I'm not treating this as a black-white, love-hate thing. I've liked some of the things Dean has done, and I've disliked other things. It's that simple.
Well said Dutch, This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this board.

I'd just like to add that I am probably Lombardi's biggest critic on this board and I am constantly called out for it, people say I am not objective and am critical of everything.

You can search the board and find that I have said a few positive things about Lombardi, such as his handling of the goaltenders and his drafting in the later rounds. I'd love to see something negative that someone like KINGS17, Sjmay or Bunny Foo Foo have said about him. But are these guys ever labeled as Lombardi homers or blind Lombardi supporters? They cover up obvious mistakes like the return for Cammy and Visnovsky, the lack of development of certain forwards and the bad draft picks with lame excuses rather than to own up to the obvious failures.

Now I eagerly await KINGS17 and his arrogant reply about those of us who disagree with him as essentially being to stupid to see the big picture.

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06-05-2011, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Yet you said Phoenix was more successful than the Kings.
Please stop exaggerating my position - the only thing that I said regarding Phoenix was that they had improved, points-wise, faster than the Kings while dealing with much more drama and uncertainty. I don't think that they are necessarily better than the Kings - other than the fact that their coach is dramatically better (or at least more applicable to the current state of the NHL) than TM.

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