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06-04-2011, 01:53 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
Has it happened much lately? As I mentioned earlier I suspect guys like Daigle in the past are the reason the scouting process, background checks, family checks, constant character testing interviews over and over, physical testing etc... has been intensified, changed and implemented in a more comprehensive and intensified way. As I said above going into his draft year most seemed to consider Angelo Esposito as the favourite for the top pick. Once he was put through the process he quickly dropped 20 spots in the draft. His performance so far as pro showed whatever they found that made him drop like a rock seems to be coming out in the wash in his stats.
bang on!! much more thorough scouting these days than back in '93! Esposito has already been traded too, and he's not listed as one of Atlanta's, now Winnipeg's top prospects anymore! his stock has really fallen!!

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06-04-2011, 02:16 PM
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Sorry for the ot, but whenver i hear about a player like Daige my thoughts always wounder off to Jesse Niinimäki. The former 15# oilers prospect. Probably the most naturally talented player i have ever seen. But ohh boy was he lazy unfortunatly..

He could have mounted to something superb if only he had his mind set on it. Anyone remember him?

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06-04-2011, 03:55 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Krigaren View Post
Sorry for the ot, but whenver i hear about a player like Daige my thoughts always wounder off to Jesse Niinimäki. The former 15# oilers prospect. Probably the most naturally talented player i have ever seen. But ohh boy was he lazy unfortunatly..

He could have mounted to something superb if only he had his mind set on it. Anyone remember him?
oh ya!! i remember though that Jesse was actually ranked by most scouts at that draft as a 2nd rounder at about #50. he never should have gone in the 1st round.

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06-04-2011, 04:15 PM
  #54
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One reason teams use psych evalution on players is because of Daigle

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06-04-2011, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
One reason teams use psych evalution on players is because of Daigle
So it looks like he DID earn his place in hockey history...kinda...

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06-04-2011, 05:30 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Lebowski44 View Post
So it looks like he DID earn his place in hockey history...kinda...

I believe it was former bj's GM Doug Mclean who when he was the team1260 was going over the changes in how teams draft(this was last summer prior to the hall draft) and he was giving examples of what led to some of the changes that teams did in preparing for a draft. Mclean was talking about how much the psych testing was being used now compared to ten and twenty years ago. He brought up Daigle and how one team gave him an early version of what teams now call the standard psych test and he bombed on it, while pronger, Kariya and Jason Arnott were giving above average responses. After that a few teams started using it, but most teams still did not buy into how much help it is at drafting. He said his wake up call came with one of his first draft picks while the bj's were not buying into the testing and put little faith into the data that he was given. He then went onto give his first experience with how important the psych tests had become. He did not give the players names--but it gives an insight about how much the drafting procedures have changed. He had a second round player who gave a great interview and had was great physical speciman and Mclean was high on him. One of his scouts, a newer one who believed in the psych testing told him that the player he liked---scored some of the lowest scores he had seen and then told him about another player, who while not as good physically as the guy Mclean liked, scored off the chart and he suggested to Mclean that this is the player he should draft. Mclean ignored the scouts advice, drafted the guy he liked and within a few years he was out of hockey--the guy the scout liked turned into an NHL all star. Mclean stated that more and more teams are relying more on the psych test and less and less on the interview of the draft prospects and he says Daigle was one of the earliest examples of why the psych test has become so important.

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06-04-2011, 06:14 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by TheStig View Post
I believe it was former bj's GM Doug Mclean who when he was the team1260 was going over the changes in how teams draft(this was last summer prior to the hall draft) and he was giving examples of what led to some of the changes that teams did in preparing for a draft. Mclean was talking about how much the psych testing was being used now compared to ten and twenty years ago. He brought up Daigle and how one team gave him an early version of what teams now call the standard psych test and he bombed on it, while pronger, Kariya and Jason Arnott were giving above average responses. After that a few teams started using it, but most teams still did not buy into how much help it is at drafting. He said his wake up call came with one of his first draft picks while the bj's were not buying into the testing and put little faith into the data that he was given. He then went onto give his first experience with how important the psych tests had become. He did not give the players names--but it gives an insight about how much the drafting procedures have changed. He had a second round player who gave a great interview and had was great physical speciman and Mclean was high on him. One of his scouts, a newer one who believed in the psych testing told him that the player he liked---scored some of the lowest scores he had seen and then told him about another player, who while not as good physically as the guy Mclean liked, scored off the chart and he suggested to Mclean that this is the player he should draft. Mclean ignored the scouts advice, drafted the guy he liked and within a few years he was out of hockey--the guy the scout liked turned into an NHL all star. Mclean stated that more and more teams are relying more on the psych test and less and less on the interview of the draft prospects and he says Daigle was one of the earliest examples of why the psych test has become so important.
All the improvements in scouting in general are why I find it hard to swallow when people say the Oilers should be like Detroit and find gems late in the draft (Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg). I mean, you still do find deep draft steals, but it's nowhere near as common as it was when Detroit was doing it. With how much all the aspects of prospect tracking have improved and more emphasis on European scouting, I don't know that any team will grab players as good as Zetterberg or Datsyuk late in drafts again. I mean, you never say never, but it seems to be becoming less and less likely with every passing draft.

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06-05-2011, 12:08 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Lebowski44 View Post
All the improvements in scouting in general are why I find it hard to swallow when people say the Oilers should be like Detroit and find gems late in the draft (Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg). I mean, you still do find deep draft steals, but it's nowhere near as common as it was when Detroit was doing it. With how much all the aspects of prospect tracking have improved and more emphasis on European scouting, I don't know that any team will grab players as good as Zetterberg or Datsyuk late in drafts again. I mean, you never say never, but it seems to be becoming less and less likely with every passing draft.
I still maintain that Detroit's couple of late round successes were more luck and perhaps good development than keen drafting prowess. Look at how poor Detroit's early round returns have been over-all.

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06-05-2011, 01:42 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Alawishis View Post
I still maintain that Detroit's couple of late round successes were more luck and perhaps good development than keen drafting prowess. Look at how poor Detroit's early round returns have been over-all.
Luck certainly has a lot to do with it.

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06-05-2011, 02:18 AM
  #60
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He's actually doing visual effects for movies now :

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1388997/

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06-05-2011, 03:55 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Dooman View Post
He's actually doing visual effects for movies now :

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1388997/
Obviously took a different path than most hockey players. To each his own!

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06-05-2011, 07:17 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Alawishis View Post
I still maintain that Detroit's couple of late round successes were more luck and perhaps good development than keen drafting prowess. Look at how poor Detroit's early round returns have been over-all.
I beg to differ. It has become clear to me that Detroit has a very sound strategic approach to their drafting. A lot of people claim that "if Detroit really knew how good Lidstrom/Datyuk/Zetterberg/etc. would become they wouldn't have waited so late to pick them up" which I think is false. Truth is Detroit probably knew they weren't on anyone's radars and picked other more known prospects earlier as much as they could, as they still do now.

You need only look at recently, when Tatar was very high on the Red Wings' draft board and everyone knew it. It was rumored that they might even use their first round pick for him, but in the end they waited patiently for their late 2nd round pick, probably figuring he would be available there. As it turns out, I think Tatar has developed faster/better than their earlier pick. Just another example but there will probably be fewer and fewer very late steals though.

They just have great scouts and what seems like very good info gathering regarding to what's on the minds of the other teams' scouting crew and management, IMO. Luck is a factor in every single pick, no matter early or late, but in the end, you pick players your scouting team believes has the odds on the right side of the equation. It's no luck that all the players that pan out for Detroit seem to have collected personalities and be dedicated professionals.

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06-05-2011, 11:40 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Lebowski44 View Post
Luck certainly has a lot to do with it.
Disagree.

The reason the Wings did so well in the later rounds was because their foreign scouting budget was way ahead of the rest of the league in the late 80s and 90s (which is where most of their late round steals - Fedorov, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Konstantinov, Datsyuk, Holmstrom).

They also had a strong core of veterans like Yzerman that allowed the drafted players to develop properly, either in the minors or overseas until they were ready to play.

I don't think the Wings were lucky - they were just ahead of everyone else.

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06-05-2011, 11:48 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Dooman View Post
He's actually doing visual effects for movies now :

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1388997/
originally he had open a production house where he was going to be a producer and make movies--but it went belly up and he needed to return to hockey to make more money

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06-05-2011, 01:02 PM
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Disagree.

The reason the Wings did so well in the later rounds was because their foreign scouting budget was way ahead of the rest of the league in the late 80s and 90s (which is where most of their late round steals - Fedorov, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Konstantinov, Datsyuk, Holmstrom).

They also had a strong core of veterans like Yzerman that allowed the drafted players to develop properly, either in the minors or overseas until they were ready to play.

I don't think the Wings were lucky - they were just ahead of everyone else.
In my initial post I mentioned that it's harder to find late round steals like Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg now because there is so much more emphasis on European scouting these days. But even still, you do have to be lucky with your late round selections. It's not like every single pick that Detroit has made from the 5th round and beyond has panned out.

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06-05-2011, 01:04 PM
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He scored 88 points in 131 games as an 18-19-20 year-old on a last-place team, including 12 points in his first 6 career games. There was talent there. Everything went to crap in his third season and he never regained traction.

For fans who don't remember him, he was sort of like the 1990s hockey version of Reggie Bush; he got to the big show and everyone was fast, so he couldn't play the same style of game that had got him there. He had to deal with traffic in a way he never had to in junior.

Rather than push through it, he kind of threw his arms up in the air and said "so much for that." He had no desire whatsoever. I watched him play a few games in junior (WJC), and saw a few Ottawa games. He was obviously world-class on talent alone. He could have been a Pat Lafontaine calibre player.

A lot of people cite Ottawa's management for basically providing unconditional love when what he needed was to be challenged. I'm of the opinion that his fatal flaw was psychological in nature, and he would have busted no matter where he ended up or how he was handled.
This guy knows.

Daigle wasn't nearly as bad as people like to believe and his first bit in the NHL showed he had all the talent. There were a lot of factors that led to his downfall and retirement but to say he just didn't have the talent is far from the truth.

There was also the fact that Alexei Yashin had his rookie season at the same time and scored a bit better than Daigle, and instead of appreciating two solid rookies, the Ottawa media and fans used it as a reason to call Daigle out on everything. He couldn't match this Yashin guy, and that was unacceptable. It'd be like if everyone turned on Hall if Eberle scored 20 more points.

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06-05-2011, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by enthropi View Post
I beg to differ. It has become clear to me that Detroit has a very sound strategic approach to their drafting. A lot of people claim that "if Detroit really knew how good Lidstrom/Datyuk/Zetterberg/etc. would become they wouldn't have waited so late to pick them up" which I think is false. Truth is Detroit probably knew they weren't on anyone's radars and picked other more known prospects earlier as much as they could, as they still do now.

You need only look at recently, when Tatar was very high on the Red Wings' draft board and everyone knew it. It was rumored that they might even use their first round pick for him, but in the end they waited patiently for their late 2nd round pick, probably figuring he would be available there. As it turns out, I think Tatar has developed faster/better than their earlier pick. Just another example but there will probably be fewer and fewer very late steals though.

They just have great scouts and what seems like very good info gathering regarding to what's on the minds of the other teams' scouting crew and management, IMO. Luck is a factor in every single pick, no matter early or late, but in the end, you pick players your scouting team believes has the odds on the right side of the equation. It's no luck that all the players that pan out for Detroit seem to have collected personalities and be dedicated professionals.
SO why then not the same "luck" in early rounds. Does there scouting staff only concentrate on scouting late round picks?

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06-05-2011, 01:08 PM
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I once read that even after he was drafted #1, he already knew he didn't want to play hockey and the only reason he went to the Sens training camp was because his dad wanted him to.

he was, basically, a beer leaguer who just happen to have world class talent. Can't really blame him for not liking the daily grind and competiveness of professional hockey. Besides the money, is it really that great of a life? I'm not so sure anymore.
" I thought about playing in the NHL, but you're on the road so much, you have no time to spend with your wife and kids. And I really want a wife and kids.

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06-05-2011, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Alawishis View Post
SO why then not the same "luck" in early rounds. Does there scouting staff only concentrate on scouting late round picks?
Because, as was said earlier, they know that the guy they want is going to go late so there's no need to take them higher. They take the more known guys early incase they pan out. You wouldn't say they don't have early round success if Datsyuk and Zetterberg were first rounders


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06-05-2011, 09:57 PM
  #70
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Because, as was said earlier, they know that the guy they want is going to go late so there's no need to take them higher. They take the more known guys early incase they pan out. You wouldn't say they don't have early round success is Datsyuk and Zetterberg were first rounders
Um, no they weren't. If you look at Detroit's early drafts, say first rounders, they have some notables but really they haven't done any better than anyone else, in fact probably slightly less.

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06-05-2011, 10:15 PM
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Um, no they weren't. If you look at Detroit's early drafts, say first rounders, they have some notables but really they haven't done any better than anyone else, in fact probably slightly less.
This may sound a bit far fetched, but I find most people think that Detroit is very successful because they did get guys like Helm, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, FLipula, and Franzen. However, they always had there prominent positions in place and were able to develop.

Also since the early 90's they have by far one of the best farm clubs for grooming players for the big club. Its not taking anything away from them, however its alot of things drafting (right character plays with talent) developing and then bringing and adapting them to there roles.

Also Detroit always has that vibe and culture that if you play with heart and character sometimes without the huge talent we're going to play you. Helm, Abdelkadar, Franzen come to mind. Yes, Franzen can score 4 goals in a night he doesn't do that consistently he works at other parts of the game.

Thats the second part Detroit fans in general very knowledgeable look for other elements in a players game, and its all appreciated. I find Oiler fans a bit cynical in the sense that we may never have that Zetterberg, Datsyuk talent but drafting a guy like Mcneill maybe you get a Darren Helm type player and thats not bad either (not the greatest trade off, but time will tell).

EDIT: Main point Detroit should be known for developing and building various diverse talents, rather than a team that drafts well.

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06-06-2011, 07:49 AM
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My biggest beef with Daige is how much money he demanded on his rookie season -1.975. The highest paid player at the time was Eric Lindros at 3.35. The current rookie salarie cap should be called the Alexandre Daige cap.

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06-06-2011, 08:42 AM
  #73
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I wouldn't say that...the NFL does a lot of tests during their combine, including psychological, intelligence, athletic, etc...but they still came out with someone like Jamarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf. Although in their cases I think attitude and the sense of self-entitlement had a lot to do with it.
From what I understand there were a lot of red flags concerning Leaf's personality tests but the Chargers chose to ignore them.

As for Daigle, I pretty much agree that he just lacked the drive that it takes to take your game from the junior to the pro level (which is a huge step for most players).

When I think of personality tests on hockey players in general my mind always comes back to Bonsignoire and how (I believe) the Oilers were late compared to some other teams in using these tests. Bonsignoire, according to to Barry Fraser, deserved to be drafted #4 in terms of talent. In fact, Fraser has not changed his opinion on this. The problem was that Bonsignoire looked at getting drafted as his final goal. Once he accomplished that goal, he didn't care enough about taking the next step. I kind of put Daigle in a similar place in terms of his mindset. Daigle wanted to be in Hollywood, Bonsignoire wanted to ride Harleys all day (no joke). Neither of them really cared about being pro hockey players.


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06-06-2011, 10:51 AM
  #74
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From what I understand there were a lot of red flags concerning Leaf's personality tests but the Chargers chose to ignore them.

As for Daigle, I pretty much agree that he just lacked the drive that it takes to take your game from the junior to the pro level (which is a huge step for most players).

When I think of personality tests on hockey players in general my mind always comes back to Bonsignoire and how (I believe) the Oilers were late compared to some other teams in using these tests. Bonsignoire, according to to Barry Fraser, deserved to be drafted #4 in terms of talent. In fact, Fraser has not changed his opinion on this. The problem was that Bonsignoire looked at getting drafted as his final goal. Once he accomplished that goal, he didn't care enough about taking the next step. I kind of put Daigle in a similar place in terms of his mindset. Daigle wanted to be in Hollywood, Bonsignoire wanted to ride Harleys all day (no joke). Neither of them really cared about being pro hockey players.
Bonsignoire, I think he wanted to be cyclist in the tour de france if I'm not mistaken. Also a recording artist.

I forget the player, but just 'days' after Bonsignoire was drafted he was laughing at the pick. He did a tiny 'OK' hand gesture, saying that was the size of Bonsignoire's heart. A cheerio. Who knew Bonsignoire was going to be a bust, everybody but Oiler's management at the time. Those were some arrogant days for the club. I think they really thought they were just reloading and would be back to winning Stanley cups in no time at all.

Man,'94 was a brutal draft. Fortunate to get Smyth at 6. I highly doubt we will ever, and I mean ever see a draft that poor again. Looking back Alfredsson, Hejduk, Steve Sullivan, Turco and Elias were all later round steals with Elias being the only one mentioned that even went in the second round. That list of players picked up late in the draft blows the first round away. Smyth was the best player chosen in the first round IMO, and that's just sad.

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06-06-2011, 12:57 PM
  #75
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From what I understand there were a lot of red flags concerning Leaf's personality tests but the Chargers chose to ignore them.

As for Daigle, I pretty much agree that he just lacked the drive that it takes to take your game from the junior to the pro level (which is a huge step for most players).

When I think of personality tests on hockey players in general my mind always comes back to Bonsignoire and how (I believe) the Oilers were late compared to some other teams in using these tests. Bonsignoire, according to to Barry Fraser, deserved to be drafted #4 in terms of talent. In fact, Fraser has not changed his opinion on this. The problem was that Bonsignoire looked at getting drafted as his final goal. Once he accomplished that goal, he didn't care enough about taking the next step. I kind of put Daigle in a similar place in terms of his mindset. Daigle wanted to be in Hollywood, Bonsignoire wanted to ride Harleys all day (no joke). Neither of them really cared about being pro hockey players.
No kidding. You'd have thought the Oilers would have learned their lesson after drafting Jason Soules - didn't he tell them up front he never wanted to play professional hockey?

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