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Old
06-07-2011, 10:44 AM
  #26
bobbyflex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You're operating under the delusion that Leino is a "key" piece of the Flyers? If he isn't willing to sign for <3M I don't want him.

And, yes, a goalie... which we can fit no problem with a few moves. Needing to make moves is not "cap hell". We are at zero risk right now of losing any key players. Just need to restructure a bit.
yeah ok buddy good luck with that

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06-07-2011, 10:47 AM
  #27
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yeah ok buddy good luck with that
Strong rebuttal.

Good luck with the whole speaking about that which you don't really know thing.

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Old
06-07-2011, 10:50 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We're in salary cap hell? The only key piece of our team not locked in right now is JVR... and next summer the cap is going to see a massive boost due to the 6M per team in TV money that is getting distributed this year.

The only thing we need to do is carve out room for a goalie... would hardly call that "hell". We have a cap "problem," but there are obvious solutions. It isn't like Carle is an albatross.
Jester, you can say it. I can say it. Every Flyers fan can say it. It's still not going to sink in that the Flyers are not in cap hell.

But please Leafs fans. Just stop. There is nothing the Flyers want from the Leafs, unless it's draft picks for Flyers' garbage.

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Old
06-07-2011, 10:54 AM
  #29
bobbyflex
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Strong rebuttal.

Good luck with the whole speaking about that which you don't really know thing.
i don't need a rebuttal. You have no cap space

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Old
06-07-2011, 11:00 AM
  #30
Jester
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Originally Posted by bobbyflex View Post
i don't need a rebuttal. You have no cap space
...we have 18 players under contract, too. Including some actual *ing talent, which I understand is a difficult situation to understand in Toronto.

We don't need top line defenders.

We don't need top line forwards.

We need to fill out the bottom of our roster, and sign a goalie.

We have players other teams actually want. Again, something I understand is difficult to understand in Toronto.

On top of that, the cap will go up this summer and will go up a LOT next summer.

Is it ideal? No. Ideal would be having a goalie locked in as well, but that's something that can be accomplished. It is not, however, cap hell. Largely due to the fact that Carter signed for a cap hit far below expected. Your claims to the contrary are an affirmation of your ignorance, and nothing else.

If we are in cap hell, I would like to see you enumerate the list of players we are at risk of losing this year that will severely affect this team. Leino is not one of those players.

Holmgren is an idiot, and he's gutted our farm system and hurt us a fair amount. He has, however, managed to lock up most of his key roster players to contracts at reasonable cap hits right now. He needs to get a goalie, and there are obvious pieces to aid in getting that done.

You don't "need" a rebuttal, because you don't have one. Congrats on being one more black mark on the intelligence of Leaf fans.

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Old
06-07-2011, 11:05 AM
  #31
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who is this Leafs fan? does school let out early in Ontario?

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06-07-2011, 11:09 AM
  #32
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who is this Leafs fan? does school let out early in Ontario?
I think someone showed Dion how to use a computer.

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Old
06-07-2011, 11:11 AM
  #33
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I think someone showed Dion how to use a computer.

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Old
06-07-2011, 11:12 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Only once in his career ('06-'07 with SJ) has Carle put up high point totals on the PP. His 14 pts last year was nice and all, but not particularly impressive given the fact that he was on one of the best PP teams in the league and getting solid minutes out there.

Over the last 4 seasons, Carle has put up 32 points on the PP. That's pathetic for a guy whose primary claim to fame in the NHL are his offensive chops.

Since were doing some research here, let's look at some facts.

Kimmo Timonen recorded 19 points on the PP in 09/10, while Carle recorded 14 pts in the same Season.
Timonen averaged 3:38 on the PP, for a total of 296:49 total PPTOI. Carle averaged 2:31 per game on the PP, for a total oog 201:32 total PPTOI. A considerable difference. Timonen also played on the top unit, and got the majority of 5 on 3 time with Pronger. So Carle putting up 14 PP points to Timonen's 19, is a solid number.

And Carle has shown in the past that he is more than capable of producing on the PP. As with any young developing D man, there are always ups and downs in a player play, as he matures. So to call anything about Carle pathetic, is rather shortsighted.

The poster stated that Carle's passing ability could help their PP. He didn't state anything about Carle dominating and leading the PP. And Carle is known for his solid all around ability not just a supposed "claim to fame" of offensive chops.

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Old
06-07-2011, 11:24 AM
  #35
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I approve of everything Jester and CharlieGirl have said in this thread. Also, the comment about Dion Phaneuf? Gold!

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Old
06-07-2011, 11:29 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyflex View Post
ignore this leaf fan. We don't want Carle. Good luck in salary cap hell
lol what? Haha that is funny

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Old
06-07-2011, 11:47 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...we have 18 players under contract, too. Including some actual *ing talent, which I understand is a difficult situation to understand in Toronto.

<Long and true explanation>

You don't "need" a rebuttal, because you don't have one. Congrats on being one more black mark on the intelligence of Leaf fans.
Hammer, meet nail.

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Old
06-07-2011, 11:47 AM
  #38
lancer247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Only once in his career ('06-'07 with SJ) has Carle put up high point totals on the PP. His 14 pts last year was nice and all, but not particularly impressive given the fact that he was on one of the best PP teams in the league and getting solid minutes out there.

Over the last 4 seasons, Carle has put up 32 points on the PP. That's pathetic for a guy whose primary claim to fame in the NHL are his offensive chops.
Your last paragraph may be true but does he get the avg ice time for a 1st PP unit dman?

Maybe he does but it seems like he was always a 2nd unit guy at most.

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06-07-2011, 11:51 AM
  #39
lancer247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...we have 18 players under contract, too. Including some actual *ing talent, which I understand is a difficult situation to understand in Toronto.

We don't need top line defenders.

We don't need top line forwards.

We need to fill out the bottom of our roster, and sign a goalie.

We have players other teams actually want. Again, something I understand is difficult to understand in Toronto.

On top of that, the cap will go up this summer and will go up a LOT next summer.

Is it ideal? No. Ideal would be having a goalie locked in as well, but that's something that can be accomplished. It is not, however, cap hell. Largely due to the fact that Carter signed for a cap hit far below expected. Your claims to the contrary are an affirmation of your ignorance, and nothing else.

If we are in cap hell, I would like to see you enumerate the list of players we are at risk of losing this year that will severely affect this team. Leino is not one of those players.

Holmgren is an idiot, and he's gutted our farm system and hurt us a fair amount. He has, however, managed to lock up most of his key roster players to contracts at reasonable cap hits right now. He needs to get a goalie, and there are obvious pieces to aid in getting that done.

You don't "need" a rebuttal, because you don't have one. Congrats on being one more black mark on the intelligence of Leaf fans.
Well said, sir.

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Old
06-07-2011, 12:53 PM
  #40
Jester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
Your last paragraph may be true but does he get the avg ice time for a 1st PP unit dman?

Maybe he does but it seems like he was always a 2nd unit guy at most.
I don't have his times everywhere, but his conversion rate per time out there is anemic.

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Old
06-07-2011, 03:08 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Where does this thought that Carle earns too much for a guy who can't anchor a defensive pairing himself come from? For the production that Carle brings, his Cap hit is reasonable. And compared to what a player of his caliber would command on the open market, his Cap hit is even more reasonable. And why can't Carle anchor a defensive pairing himself?
Your Carle love affair is sickening. If I recall, Carle's position is "defenseman," which would suggest that he's good at (and should get paid for) defense. Defensively I wouldn't put Carle slighly above average, but his mistakes in his own end and over-commitments in the offensive zone knock him down quite a bit. He is not worth his $3.5m cap hit. I'd legitimately be worried if Matt Carle was anchoring a top 4 defensive pair. If he can get more on the market, then by all means, let him.

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06-07-2011, 03:21 PM
  #42
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Your Carle love affair is sickening. If I recall, Carle's position is "defenseman," which would suggest that he's good at (and should get paid for) defense. Defensively I wouldn't put Carle slighly above average, but his mistakes in his own end and over-commitments in the offensive zone knock him down quite a bit. He is not worth his $3.5m cap hit. I'd legitimately be worried if Matt Carle was anchoring a top 4 defensive pair. If he can get more on the market, then by all means, let him.
There is no love affair. I judge players solely on their merits as a player. And I provide facts to back up my opinion. Carle is a solid player in his own end, and he is very good offensively. The numbers clearly show that he is a top 4 defenseman. The production he brings to the ice makes him well worth his Cap hit.

Carle is no different from any other defenseman in that he is not mistake free. His offensive instincts are solid in the offensive zone. I don't see an over comittment issue. Many of the Flyers defenseman get blamed for bad pinches by a number of fans. When it is by design and part of their system play to play aggressively at the opposition blue line and neutral zone to pressure the puck. There is a system in place that provides a safety mechanism behind them of support from the forwards in a hybrid version of the LW lock. When this doesn't happen, many time a defenseman is blamed when the fault was not with them, for an odd man rush. Laviolette wants and teaches his defensman to gamble on the puck and be aggressive, and favor the offensive side of the puck.

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Old
06-07-2011, 03:21 PM
  #43
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i don't need a rebuttal. You have no cap space
Lol I guess you just got sick of ragging on your own team. Bright future you got over there in Toronto.

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Old
06-07-2011, 03:30 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by bobbyflex View Post
and Leino
and a #1 goalie...
Stick to your own board buddy. It helps when you know what you are talking about on this one. The flyers are in a better position that at least 3/4 of the teams in the NHL.

Enjoy another 5 years of non play-off hockey.

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06-07-2011, 03:44 PM
  #45
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i don't need a rebuttal. You have no cap space
Too true. Cap space > talented roster players who make up a playoff team. The Leafs may be the ultimate testament to that. I <3 these boards!

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06-07-2011, 03:51 PM
  #46
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Who is toronto's best prospect?

Is it seriously Kadri?

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06-07-2011, 03:53 PM
  #47
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Who is toronto's best prospect?

Is it seriously Kadri?
Phil Kessel.

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Old
06-07-2011, 04:10 PM
  #48
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I imagine if we are trading someone that isn't one of our top players such as Carter, we probably won't be getting the best possible value for a player as teams know if we want Vokoun or Bryzgalov we are going to need to make cap room and not take a cap hit back. Of course it isn't like dumping a bad player because any of Carle, Versteeg, or Hartnell (I just threw him in there though I prefer he stay with the team) are all decent players. I'm also making the assumption that the team is pulling for an expensive goalie, which I think is reasonable but, perhaps other GMs aren't hung on that idea as much as we are edit- so perhaps they aren't thinking in these terms (though I think they are, and they are very likely more privy to the dealings of organizations than we are). For Carle I'd accept a second and a decent prospect, I'd love a first but I'm not sure that would happen, though perhaps I'm overvaluing picks.


Last edited by ilovetheflyers8: 06-07-2011 at 05:10 PM.
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Old
06-07-2011, 04:18 PM
  #49
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Who is toronto's best prospect?

Is it seriously Kadri?
Tyler Seguin

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06-07-2011, 04:53 PM
  #50
sobrien
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There is no love affair. I judge players solely on their merits as a player. And I provide facts to back up my opinion. Carle is a solid player in his own end, and he is very good offensively. The numbers clearly show that he is a top 4 defenseman. The production he brings to the ice makes him well worth his Cap hit.

Carle is no different from any other defenseman in that he is not mistake free. His offensive instincts are solid in the offensive zone. I don't see an over comittment issue. Many of the Flyers defenseman get blamed for bad pinches by a number of fans. When it is by design and part of their system play to play aggressively at the opposition blue line and neutral zone to pressure the puck. There is a system in place that provides a safety mechanism behind them of support from the forwards in a hybrid version of the LW lock. When this doesn't happen, many time a defenseman is blamed when the fault was not with them, for an odd man rush. Laviolette wants and teaches his defensman to gamble on the puck and be aggressive, and favor the offensive side of the puck.
His pinching and offensive capabilities are far from a weakness and I have no quarrel with them, yet offensive stats and points are the only things you're presenting. I don't believe he's worth his cap hit for what he brings defensively, and I believe a defenseman should not be paid for his offensive capabilities unless he's Mike Green, Chara, Enstrom, Byfuglien, etc.

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