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Old
06-07-2011, 09:58 AM
  #1
nuclear reactor
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Coburn and Carle as UFAs

What do you think their price tags would be on the market?

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06-07-2011, 10:01 AM
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Depends what they do next year... also will have to see what happens this summer, and how the TV money is going to impact things.

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06-07-2011, 10:04 AM
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More than what they'd make if they took a hometown discount. Regardless, I don't want Carle here next year anyways. I'd keep Coburn as long as possible. He gets a bad rap on here.

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06-07-2011, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by PycckuuRocket10 View Post
More than what they'd make if they took a hometown discount. Regardless, I don't want Carle here next year anyways. I'd keep Coburn as long as possible. He gets a bad rap on here.
Depends on the price. If someone wants to pay him like he's a "shutdown" guy then I don't want to go there.

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06-07-2011, 10:45 AM
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What do you think their price tags would be on the market?
Probably what they make now.

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06-07-2011, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Depends what they do next year... also will have to see what happens this summer, and how the TV money is going to impact things.
I think this is hypothetical, IF they were UFA's this year.

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06-07-2011, 10:50 AM
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Coburn has random mental lapses and down games, but he shows signs of being a straight boss. It seems like when he gets his hitting game going he starts to play really well. If he can be consistent he is the future of our defense along with Mez (IMO right now...many things could change in the next year or 2).

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06-07-2011, 10:51 AM
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Coburn has random mental lapses and down games, but he shows signs of being a straight boss. It seems like when he gets his hitting game going he starts to play really well. If he can be consistent he is the future of our defense along with Mez (IMO right now...many things could change in the next year or 2).
We're in serious trouble if those two are the "future" of our D. Neither of 'em has "franchise" D potential, IMO. Both have the skills to be very solid contributors, but you don't want either as your frontline guy on the PP (nor will you ever, it's just not in their toolbox), and neither guy is really all that great offensively in general (Mez a bit better than Coburn, but not a ton).

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06-07-2011, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We're in serious trouble if those two are the "future" of our D. Neither of 'em has "franchise" D potential, IMO. Both have the skills to be very solid contributors, but you don't want either as your frontline guy on the PP (nor will you ever, it's just not in their toolbox), and neither guy is really all that great offensively in general (Mez a bit better than Coburn, but not a ton).

First of all there are only a handful of "franchise" defenseman in the League. Secondly, Meszaros absolutely has the potential to round into a top pairing defenseman. In my opinion, the Flyers are in solid position with Meszaros, Carle, and Coburn as the core of their defense going forward.

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06-07-2011, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We're in serious trouble if those two are the "future" of our D. Neither of 'em has "franchise" D potential, IMO. Both have the skills to be very solid contributors, but you don't want either as your frontline guy on the PP (nor will you ever, it's just not in their toolbox), and neither guy is really all that great offensively in general (Mez a bit better than Coburn, but not a ton).
There's currently a team in the Stanley Cup Final without a franchise type of Dman, even without one who has the potential to be one.
They even do lead the series.

I think we are a little bit spoiled by having Kimo and Prongs.

With that being said I fully expect us to get a younger true #1 Dman the moment Kimo retires.

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06-07-2011, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
There's currently a team in the Stanley Cup Final without a franchise type of Dman, even without one who has the potential to be one.
They even do lead the series.


I think we are a little bit spoiled by having Kimo and Prongs.

With that being said I fully expect us to get a younger true #1 Dman the moment Kimo retires.
This.

We've gotten spoiled with having both Pronger and Timonen. People ask how we're going to replace these, ignoring how rare it is to have two guys like this to start with.

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06-07-2011, 11:38 AM
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This.

We've gotten spoiled with having both Pronger and Timonen. People ask how we're going to replace these, ignoring how rare it is to have two guys like this to start with.
yeah, some Flyer fans have no idea how good and underrated Timonen is. Maybe they will when he retires.

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06-07-2011, 11:43 AM
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Eh, until it actually happens, I agree with Jester. Those three havent shown to be able to be a #1 defender, which all teams have. Meszaros's 1 year doesnt make him a #1 defender all of a sudden. Carle and Coburn are 2 at bests.

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06-07-2011, 11:50 AM
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Eh, until it actually happens, I agree with Jester. Those three havent shown to be able to be a #1 defender, which all teams have. Meszaros's 1 year doesnt make him a #1 defender all of a sudden. Carle and Coburn are 2 at bests.
Which is another reason to have gone heavily after Tim Erixon, even if you have to give up Carle and possibly something else to get him in Philly. (Of course this is under the stipulation that Erixon would've signed outside of NYR.)

We need to start getting assets to either fix our blueline from the inside or assets to trade in order to fix our blueline of the future.

JVR - Roo - xxx
xxx - Carter - xxx
xxx - Richards - xxx

Is stellar and all, but it doesn't solve our issue of a number 1 defenseman post Pronger/Timonen.

I'm all for giving Meszaros another year to see if he can really be a #1, but if he can't it's time to at least start thinking about the future of our defense.

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06-07-2011, 12:24 PM
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Nobody wants to throw out some numbers? Obviously it depends on next season, but I think they will both be asking for at least $4,000,000 - pretty much the going rate for top 2 pairing defensemen.

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06-07-2011, 12:32 PM
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What do you think their price tags would be on the market?
Less than Burns or Suter who I would much rather have on the Flyers.

I imagine Homer will try to sign one to an extension this summer, leaving endless trade speculations involving the one who is not. I prefer Coburn to Carle. I view Carle as someone who plays well with Pronger and average without.

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Old
06-07-2011, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by nuclear reactor View Post
Nobody wants to throw out some numbers? Obviously it depends on next season, but I think they will both be asking for at least $4,000,000 - pretty much the going rate for top 2 pairing defensemen.
I can see Carle getting a big contract on the open market, as GM's always overpay for a puck-moving defenseman. At least $4 million, probably more. That's part of the reason why I think we should move him for a 1st rounder, if possible. There's a good chance that we can't afford him, especially if we don't win the Cup next year and Kimmo doesn't retire.

Coburn, I'm not sure about. He has some games where he shows off his ridiculous speed in moving the puck. Sometimes he plays more defensive and just takes guys out. A few times he does both, other times he does neither. I can't really get a read on him. Probably at least $4 million for him too.

I feel like people are overrating Meszaros a bit here. He definitely made strides last year, but until the end of the season, he never really faced top-rate opposition. If he can show that this year, then he'll be a steal at $4 million for the next three years. Problem is, I'm not sure yet if he can.

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Old
06-07-2011, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We're in serious trouble if those two are the "future" of our D. Neither of 'em has "franchise" D potential, IMO. Both have the skills to be very solid contributors, but you don't want either as your frontline guy on the PP (nor will you ever, it's just not in their toolbox), and neither guy is really all that great offensively in general (Mez a bit better than Coburn, but not a ton).
Thank god I'm not the only one who sees it this way. Coburn is a COMPLIMENTARY dman, either on the 1st or 2nd pairing. He CANNOT lead either as we found out 2 years ago (hence we HAD to go out and get Carle and like it or not, only Carle was capable of leading the 2nd pairing that year). We NEED a future top pairing, #1 dman either as a PMD that can lead Coburn or a big mean SOB that Mesz can be the offensive guy on the pairing.

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06-07-2011, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
There's currently a team in the Stanley Cup Final without a franchise type of Dman, even without one who has the potential to be one.
They even do lead the series.

I think we are a little bit spoiled by having Kimo and Prongs.

With that being said I fully expect us to get a younger true #1 Dman the moment Kimo retires.
Umm, I think that both Chara and Edler count as franchise dmen. If you don't know who Edler is then I understand but he's pretty god damned good, FAR better than Carle, Coburn and Meszaros. Edler may be a lower end "top dman" but please don't deminish his abilities. We'd be damned lucky to have him here and if I could trade Timonen or Pronger for him then I'd do it in a second. He's already Timonens equal and in a few years when Prongers game declines and Edlers gets better then Edler will be a much better asset to have (maybe 2 years IMO).

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06-07-2011, 12:56 PM
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Umm, I think that both Chara and Edler count as franchise dmen. If you don't know who Edler is then I understand but he's pretty god damned good, FAR better than Carle, Coburn and Meszaros. Edler may be a lower end "top dman" but please don't deminish his abilities. We'd be damned lucky to have him here and if I could trade Timonen or Pronger for him then I'd do it in a second. He's already Timonens equal and in a few years when Prongers game declines and Edlers gets better then Edler will be a much better asset to have (maybe 2 years IMO).
I'm hoping for Meszaros to eventually grow into an Edler-esque role here; someone who can lead a strong top-to-bottom group of defenders even without being the elite of the elite so to speak.

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06-07-2011, 12:57 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
There's currently a team in the Stanley Cup Final without a franchise type of Dman, even without one who has the potential to be one.
They even do lead the series.

I think we are a little bit spoiled by having Kimo and Prongs.

With that being said I fully expect us to get a younger true #1 Dman the moment Kimo retires.
Ah, you mean the team with probably the best 6 man unit in the NHL this year?

They may not have a Norris guy there, but Vancouver has some extremely good talent on their blue line.

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06-07-2011, 02:14 PM
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Which is another reason to have gone heavily after Tim Erixon, even if you have to give up Carle and possibly something else to get him in Philly. (Of course this is under the stipulation that Erixon would've signed outside of NYR.)

We need to start getting assets to either fix our blueline from the inside or assets to trade in order to fix our blueline of the future.

JVR - Roo - xxx
xxx - Carter - xxx
xxx - Richards - xxx

Is stellar and all, but it doesn't solve our issue of a number 1 defenseman post Pronger/Timonen.

I'm all for giving Meszaros another year to see if he can really be a #1, but if he can't it's time to at least start thinking about the future of our defense.

Is Erixon a guarantee to be a future #1 defenseman? It's going to take more than one more Season for Meszaros to develop into a top pair defenseman. You know that going in. Why the rush? Defenseman mature later than other players. He's still young as an NHL defenseman.

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06-07-2011, 02:20 PM
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Is Erixon a guarantee to be a future #1 defenseman?
No, but I like his potential. He was on Joacim Eriksson's team this year so I got to see a lot of him, Rundblad, and Larsson. All three are extremely good.

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It's going to take more than one more Season for Meszaros to develop into a top pair defenseman. You know that going in. Why the rush? Defenseman mature later than other players. He's still young as an NHL defenseman.
I agree, but I don't see Carle having that kind of potential.

I'm intrigued about how Meszaros will handle this upcoming season. He's in a new place, a new team, and he's coming off a successful year. I want to see him build on that and take over.

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06-07-2011, 02:30 PM
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Umm, I think that both Chara and Edler count as franchise dmen.
Umm, I referred to the Nucks.
And Alex Edler is far from being a franchise dman.

Pronger
Lidstrom
Chara
Weber
Keith
Doughty (potentially)
Pietrangelo (potentially)

Those are the Dmen I would currently rate into this category, with Pietrangelo and Doughty standing out as the two young guys who already (Pietrangelo to a lesser extent) have shown to be able to become what is defined as a franchise defenseman.
There are a few others (including Edler) who can jump into this conversation but atm this would be my list.

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If you don't know who Edler is then I understand but he's pretty god damned good, FAR better than Carle, Coburn and Meszaros. Edler may be a lower end "top dman" but please don't deminish his abilities.
No question about that, but in my opinion there's a significant gap between being a top defender (which in my estimation is playing on the top pair, 22-24min/game) and being a franchise defender (anchoring the whole D-unit, playing in all situations, 24-30min/game and being dominant at that).

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We'd be damned lucky to have him here and if I could trade Timonen or Pronger for him then I'd do it in a second.
We are lucky now, to have Pronger and Timonen now.
Timonen? Maybe.
Pronger? Hell no.
You don't trade Pronger, ask the Blues, the Oilers and the Ducks about that. You are overrating Edler / underrating Pronger here.

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He's already Timonens equal and in a few years when Prongers game declines and Edlers gets better then Edler will be a much better asset to have (maybe 2 years IMO).
We have the best defender in this league (when healthy) now, with Pronger. I'm not interested in 2 years from now, especially if that means not being sure how good the incoming asset really will be at that time (which is almost always the case).




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Ah, you mean the team with probably the best 6 man unit in the NHL this year?
The best 6 man unit in the NHL got eliminated by the Boston Bruins in round 2.
And even if you consider Vancouver to be the best 6 man unit (which isn't far from the truth, I just like having two Ds who can play 30min more than having a whole lot of #2-3s), it doesn't change my few on them not having a franchise defender.

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They may not have a Norris guy there, but Vancouver has some extremely good talent on their blue line.
That's actually my point.

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06-07-2011, 03:25 PM
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No, but I like his potential. He was on Joacim Eriksson's team this year so I got to see a lot of him, Rundblad, and Larsson. All three are extremely good.



I agree, but I don't see Carle having that kind of potential.

I'm intrigued about how Meszaros will handle this upcoming season. He's in a new place, a new team, and he's coming off a successful year. I want to see him build on that and take over.
Carle is already a solid top 4 defensman. I don't see Carle as a #1 future D man. But he could play on a #1 pairing with a #1 defenseman. Carle still has plenty of upside.

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