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Old
06-08-2011, 10:12 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Dont get me wrong, I like Dan Girardi. Nice story, good player, etc.

But he is also probably one of the most overrated Rangers on the current roster. All you have to do is analyze how hes played without a rock like Staal by his side over the last couple of seasons. Whenever they are seperated, Girardi goes from being very good to very average.

You can play him on the top pair because he works well with Staal as a shutdown pair, but that doesnt make him a "top pair defenseman" in the traditional sense.
Ok but why trade him if he is amazing with Staal. He can be as average as he wants without Staal, but since he is a great player with Staal, there is no reason to want to trade him.

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06-08-2011, 10:13 AM
  #27
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girardi probably has alot of trade value and there is a possiblity that for a little bit more $$ you could upgrade that spot on the top pair...but i don't think we are in the position to even consider trading one of our top 4 dmen.

we have 4 dmen...4. we don't even have a 3rd pair. i know people list all our prospects to claim we have a ton of depth and should trade guys. but reality is until some of those prospects start showing they can play in the nhl we have zero depth. if anything we have negative depth...

if del zotto refinds his game and erixon makes it giving us 3 full pairs, then we could consider if it makes sense to make a trade...but until that happens we can't afford to lose any of our top 4.

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06-08-2011, 10:15 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by HagelinForPresident View Post
Ok but why trade him if he is amazing with Staal. He can be as average as he wants without Staal, but since he is a great player with Staal, there is no reason to want to trade him.
only place that would make sense to me is if we had the chance to acquire someone like suter or burns or weber (i wish) that would upgrade the top pair...definitely not dumping girardi so sauer or erixon can play on the top pair. atleast not at this stage.

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06-08-2011, 10:20 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Its absolutely fascinating how you could possibly come up with this conclusion after reading my post.
Thats nice and all, but do we really want Dan Girardi playing on the powerplay? Your words...not mine.

What is fascinating to me is how quickly you are willing to dismiss that he had 31 points with very limited powerplay time, yet guys like Myers and Timonen are on the powerplay almost the entire 2 minutes.

But let's just pretend that is not the case!

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06-08-2011, 10:39 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
1) Stacked with young talented defensemen.
2) You only get to play 6 defensmen. You play 12 Forwards.
3) Rangers don't score.
4) Rangers don't have high end scoring forwards.
5) Girardi's stock is high
6) Use what you have to get what you need.
1). Young, talented, unproven dmen? Yes.
2). Which makes dmen a lot more valuable, considering they're likely to play more time than forwards.
3+4). Doesn't make Girardi expendable. And there's no guarantee the guy we obtain for him single-handedly remedies our lack of scoring.
5). It's high for a reason. A damn good reason.
6). See 3+4.

I wouldn't consider moving Girardi, unless we get a young stud LW or C back who's well under 30 years of age. If we do sign Richards this summer, that all but elimates whatever possibility we have of moving Girardi.

This team wants to be a contender. A formidable 1st pairing D is beyond vital. Sorry, but I don't trust the kids in our line-up to play alongside Marc when AO or Crosby step on the ice.

Can you guys remind me what happened last time we traded a top-4 dmen for a scoring forward . . . ?

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06-08-2011, 10:39 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
only place that would make sense to me is if we had the chance to acquire someone like suter or burns or weber (i wish) that would upgrade the top pair...definitely not dumping girardi so sauer or erixon can play on the top pair. atleast not at this stage.
Exactly, the only way I'd trade Girardi is if a guy who is better such as the 3 u listed above, is coming back in return. Or if there was a FA d man better than Girardi, I'd trade Girardi for a winger that we desperately need and then try to sign the FA to take Girardi's spot.

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06-08-2011, 10:39 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
...
1) Stacked with young talented defensemen.
2) You only get to play 6 defensmen. You play 12 Forwards.
3) Rangers don't score.
4) Rangers don't have high end scoring forwards.
5) Girardi's stock is high
6) Use what you have to get what you need.
this eloquently sums the case I've been making on why Girardi should NOT be rushed out the door, but certainly moved if there is a good deal.
IMO a good deal is either an upgrade in F (forget this nonsense about getting someone elite, that's not happening without adding a lot, usually assets we prefer to keep)
OR
you add and get a solid caliber D who can be adequate at minimum w/our above average D, then earn his keep with great shooting, coming in and pinching or from the point on a power play.

DG is not across the board elite. He is a borderline All Star in that he is the best shot blocking D in the league, the rest of his D skills are above average across the board (terrific positioning and stick checking; average play the body), his offense is mediocre at best, being smart enough to get the puck to someone else.

While his value is high, and we have enough depth, let's move him sooner than later.
And for everyone who said last year, no we can't trade Rozi or Girardi because Sauer and McDonaugh and this one and that one aren't ready, yeah, it wasn't necessarily hand in glove like clockwork, but I went against the grain on that and the proof is I was right about it.

I'll be proven correct about this too.

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06-08-2011, 10:46 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by HagelinForPresident View Post
Ok but why trade him if he is amazing with Staal. He can be as average as he wants without Staal, but since he is a great player with Staal, there is no reason to want to trade him.
I never said he should be traded. Hell, I never said it doesnt work with Staal.

All Im saying is that people seem to think hes a lot better than he actually is.

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06-08-2011, 10:48 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Thats nice and all, but do we really want Dan Girardi playing on the powerplay? Your words...not mine.
If you want a team that competes for more than just a playoff spot, then no you don't.

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06-08-2011, 10:48 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
girardi probably has alot of trade value and there is a possiblity that for a little bit more $$ you could upgrade that spot on the top pair...but i don't think we are in the position to even consider trading one of our top 4 dmen.

we have 4 dmen...4. we don't even have a 3rd pair. i know people list all our prospects to claim we have a ton of depth and should trade guys. but reality is until some of those prospects start showing they can play in the nhl we have zero depth. if anything we have negative depth...

if del zotto refinds his game and erixon makes it giving us 3 full pairs, then we could consider if it makes sense to make a trade...but until that happens we can't afford to lose any of our top 4.
I think your anxieties are encouraged by a lack of information and I mean that as uninsulting as possible<--meant uninsulting.

First the concern about only having 4 defenders. Staal, Girardi, McD, Sauer. Every scout and NHL GM says this kid is ready to step in as a top4 defenseman, there are tons of articles out there and posted on this forum, google them, read them, he's refereed to having ABOVE nhl level skating and being BETTER than McD. How well did McD step in? IMO the only concern you have to worry about with Erixon is the number of games playing which I'd have to say this year after playing a full season in the SEL, watching him in the WC afterwards, he didn't look tired. That doesn't mean he won't tire in the longer NHL season and the playoffs. That gives the Rangers 5 top4 defenseman. So based on that alone if you go into this season with nothing changing outside of your top 4 being Staal, McD, Sauer, Erixon rather than the above, not much has changed you still need to fill your bottom pair.

The bottom pair. McCabe only wants to play in NY. Eminger doesn't want to sign outside of NY. MDZ isn't a sophomore anymore. Vtank is a Russian version of Girardi playing the left side. Many felt Kundratek deserved the callup BEFORE McD. Gilroy probably isn't even offered a deal anymore. Pashnin is a long shot. Parlett is a longshot. Don't forget the annual invite for Alexie Semonov or anyone else who gets invited to camp. That's 9 names for 2 spots. At that point its accuracy by volume, even after Girardi was traded.


Last edited by vipernsx: 06-08-2011 at 05:27 PM.
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Old
06-08-2011, 10:49 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Thats nice and all, but do we really want Dan Girardi playing on the powerplay? Your words...not mine.

What is fascinating to me is how quickly you are willing to dismiss that he had 31 points with very limited powerplay time, yet guys like Myers and Timonen are on the powerplay almost the entire 2 minutes.

But let's just pretend that is not the case!
Yes, thats what I asked. And if Dan Girardi is getting any significant powerplay time next season, we will continue to have serious issues in that area.

How you come to the conclusion of "defensemen arent good if they dont play the powerplay" is twisted logic at best and ignorance at worst.

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06-08-2011, 10:52 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Yes, thats what I asked. And if Dan Girardi is getting any significant powerplay time next season, we will continue to have serious issues in that area.
This is the issue, right here. Girardi getting minimal powerplay time on the 2nd unit would be fine, but getting consistent time on the 1st unit? That's not a good thing for the Rangers. It spells out the lack of a legitimate offensive defenseman, and you really can't contend in this league, as it is now, without at least a single defenseman that is capable of putting up 40 points.

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06-08-2011, 11:01 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Yes, thats what I asked. And if Dan Girardi is getting any significant powerplay time next season, we will continue to have serious issues in that area.

How you come to the conclusion of "defensemen arent good if they dont play the powerplay" is twisted logic at best and ignorance at worst.
Ok, if Timonen or Myers were running our point we would be in much better position, right, even though they only have a few more points then he did.

Would you prefer Marc Andre Bergeron running your powerplay?

You said Giradi only has value to his team because he was paired with Staal, what about when Staal missed time this year...how did Danny fare then.

I am sure if you put Giradi with Brooks Orpik or Victor Hedman, his play wouldn't drop off like you are claiming or am I being ignorant?

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06-08-2011, 11:02 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
This is the issue, right here. Girardi getting minimal powerplay time on the 2nd unit would be fine, but getting consistent time on the 1st unit? That's not a good thing for the Rangers. It spells out the lack of a legitimate offensive defenseman, and you really can't contend in this league, as it is now, without at least a single defenseman that is capable of putting up 40 points.
True, to an extent.

You can also get by with a forward thats skilled at dictating play and distributing from the blueline on the PP. Hey, there just happens to be one thats available on July 1 - the same guy that would also help our severe #1C problem.

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06-08-2011, 11:03 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Ok, if Timonen or Myers were running our point we would be in much better position, right, even though they only have a few more points then he did.

Would you prefer Marc Andre Bergeron running your powerplay?

You said Giradi only has value to his team because he was paired with Staal, what about when Staal missed time this year...how did Danny fair then.

I am sure if you put Giradi with Brooks Orpik or Victor Hedman, his play wouldn't drop off like you are claiming or am I being ignorant?
No

No

Not as well

No - thus proving the point that he needs support from his partner moreso than a great defenseman would.

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06-08-2011, 11:07 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
I think your anxieties are encouraged by a lack of information and I mean that as insulting as possible.

First the concern about only having 4 defenders. Staal, Girardi, McD, Sauer. Every scout and NHL GM says this kid is ready to step in as a top4 defenseman, there are tons of articles out there and posted on this forum, google them, read them, he's refereed to having ABOVE nhl level skating and being BETTER than McD. How well did McD step in? IMO the only concern you have to worry about with Erixon is the number of games playing which I'd have to say this year after playing a full season in the SEL, watching him in the WC afterwards, he didn't look tired. That doesn't mean he won't tire in the longer NHL season and the playoffs. That gives the Rangers 5 top4 defenseman. So based on that alone if you go into this season with nothing changing outside of your top 4 being Staal, McD, Sauer, Erixon rather than the above, not much has changed you still need to fill your bottom pair.

The bottom pair. McCabe only wants to play in NY. Eminger doesn't want to sign outside of NY. MDZ isn't a sophomore anymore. Vtank is a Russian version of Girardi playing the left side. Many felt Kundratek deserved the callup BEFORE McD. Gilroy probably isn't even offered a deal anymore. Pashnin is a long shot. Parlett is a longshot. Don't forget the annual invite for Alexie Semonov or anyone else who gets invited to camp. That's 9 names for 2 spots. At that point its accuracy by volume, even after Girardi was traded.
mccabe won't be back, and torts doesn't trust eminger and gilroy. just look at the ice time from last year. we played as if we had only 4 dmen all year.

i know everyone thinks cause del zotto's sophomore season is over his sophomore slump will end and he'll magically be better and i hope that happens...but until it does we don't know and he could be in hartford again.

everyone says erixon is ready to step in, but until he steps on a north american rink thats wishful thinking. last year we thought MCD would be ready to step right in and it took him 1/2 a season. valentenko and kundratek had good seasons in hartford and give us good depth but have not played a second at the nhl level yet...and bringing up pashin, mcilrath, etc is pointless cause they are atleast a few years away.

that 'depth' you talk about is ALL filled with question marks...

am i worried about our future blueline or depth?? absolutely not. i think del zotto bounces back. i think valentenko and kundratek are ready to step in for injures. and i'm hopefully that erixon can step in. but being able to play on the 3rd pair and the 1st pair aren't the same...and like i said i'm not even considering moving girardi until those guys actually make it.

current depth and potential future depth aren't the same...

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06-08-2011, 11:10 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
No

No

Not as well

No - thus proving the point that he needs support from his partner moreso than a great defenseman would.
Start a poll and ask if people would want Timonen or Myers running their powerplay and see what the response is...you stated u didn't want either one, correct?

ok, I didnt think his game dipped at all when he was paired with McDonagh or was McDonagh carrying him.

In fact, they put him with Emminger and they won a few close games when he was getting close to 30 minutes a game.

So, if he is so dependant on Staal you would think the other GM's in the league would know this, thus limiting his trade value, right?

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06-08-2011, 11:12 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
I think your anxieties are encouraged by a lack of information and I mean that as insulting as possible.
and LMAO at 'i mean that as insulting as possible' that has to be the funniest internet tough guy phrase i've ever read.

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06-08-2011, 11:13 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Start a poll and ask if people would want Timonen or Myers running their powerplay and see what the response is...you stated u didn't want either one, correct?

ok, I didnt think his game dipped at all when he was paired with McDonagh or was McDonagh carrying him.

In fact, they put him with Emminger and they won a few close games when he was getting close to 30 minutes a game.

So, if he is so dependant on Staal you would think the other GM's in the league would know this, thus limiting his trade value, right?
I dont want Timmonen of Myers running my powerplay, just like I dont want Girardi running it. Dont really know where you're coming up with this names but you're setting the bar awfully low.

Regarding your last point, yes, thats exactly my point. Noones giving up a productive forward for Dan Girardi.

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06-08-2011, 11:15 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont want Timmonen of Myers running my powerplay, just like I dont want Girardi running it. Dont really know where you're coming up with this names but you're setting the bar awfully low.

Regarding your last point, yes, thats exactly my point. Noones giving up a productive forward for Dan Girardi.
Hmm?

Both are above average offensive defenseman. Timonen is slowing down, but I'd still much rather have him running the powerplay than Girardi; I'd be fine with him running it in general.

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06-08-2011, 11:20 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont want Timmonen of Myers running my powerplay, just like I dont want Girardi running it. Dont really know where you're coming up with this names but you're setting the bar awfully low.

Regarding your last point, yes, thats exactly my point. Noones giving up a productive forward for Dan Girardi.
Ok, if Tyler Myers who is 21, 6'8 227 pounds has had 48 and 37 points in his first two seasons is not good enough to run your point, please tell me who is.

Ok, so it is has been concluded that Dan Giradi has very little trade value.

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06-08-2011, 11:25 AM
  #47
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Hmm?

Both are above average offensive defenseman. Timonen is slowing down, but I'd still much rather have him running the powerplay than Girardi; I'd be fine with him running it in general.
Theyd both be better options than Girardi for the powerplay, thats for sure.

But I wouldnt go out of my way to obtain either one, especially Timonen.

I have no idea why these two names even got brought up in this discussion

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06-08-2011, 11:26 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Theyd both be better options than Girardi for the powerplay, thats for sure.

But I wouldnt go out of my way to obtain either one, especially Timonen.
I would agree with you in terms of not going out of my way to get Timonen; but Myers? Kid's a beast. He's a legitimate top pairing defenseman at 21.

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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I have no idea why these two names even got brought up in this discussion
I think it's because ON was trying to compare two above average PP defenseman to Girardi, because their point totals were similar.

It's flawed logic, but I could see why they were brought up. Either way, they're essentially irrelevant, so let's keep discussion to Girardi.


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06-08-2011, 11:29 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
I would agree with you in terms of not going out of my way to get Timonen; but Myers? Kid's a beast. He's a legitimate top pairing defenseman at 21.



I think it's because ON was trying to compare two above average PP defenseman to Girardi, because their point totals were similar.

It's flawed logic, but I could see why they were brought up. Either way, they're essentially irrelevant, so let's keep discussion to Girardi.
They were brought up because you said Giradi had no business being on the powerplay, I said he had 31 points, Myers only had 37, you completely minimize Giradi to the point where he shouldn't even be on the team and since he has no value, we can't even trade him.

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06-08-2011, 11:31 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
They were brought up because you said Giradi had no business being on the powerplay, I said he had 31 points, Myers only had 37, you completely minimize Giradi to the point where he shouldn't even be on the team and since he has no value, we can't even trade him.
Points do not necessarily equal powerplay productivity.

Stop putting words in people's mouths, too. No one said "Girardi shouldn't be on the team and he has no value".

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