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Old
06-08-2011, 12:35 PM
  #51
Orr Nightmare
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
I would agree with you in terms of not going out of my way to get Timonen; but Myers? Kid's a beast. He's a legitimate top pairing defenseman at 21.



I think it's because ON was trying to compare two above average PP defenseman to Girardi, because their point totals were similar.

It's flawed logic, but I could see why they were brought up. Either way, they're essentially irrelevant, so let's keep discussion to Girardi.
Why is it flawed?

Giradi is being dismissed as a 4th- 5th dman at best and I was providing a point comparisons with other powerplay dmen.

I have seen numerous times how people are saying Babchuk is the answer on the powerplay, he has never had more than 35 points in the NHL.

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06-08-2011, 12:37 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Why is it flawed?

Giradi is being dismissed as a 4th- 5th dman at best and I was providing a point comparisons with other powerplay dmen.
Again - no one has said that he's a "4th-5th" defenseman. Numerous people have said that Girardi is good, but he's not a 1st pairing defenseman. He's a #3. Nearly everyone agree with that.

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Old
06-08-2011, 12:37 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
Points do not necessarily equal powerplay productivity.

Stop putting words in people's mouths, too. No one said "Girardi shouldn't be on the team and he has no value".
So, Giradi is a better 5 on 5 player then?

If someone says that Giradi could not fetch a top 6 forward I would imply that as he has no trade value...but what do I know.

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06-08-2011, 12:41 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
So, Giradi is a better 5 on 5 player then?
I don't know. Probably. Timonen took a step backward last year in terms of 5-on-5 effectiveness, and Myers is a 20 year old. Myers will be "better" than Girardi as soon as next season.

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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
If someone says that Giradi could not fetch a top 6 forward I would imply that as he has no trade value...but what do I know.
Again, again - no one said that. BRB said that Girardi wouldn't garner a "productive" forward. I don't know what BRB's barometer for "productive" is, but I assume he means a 1st line forward. And, in that case, I agree. I do think Girardi would garner a 2nd line forward, at least, though.

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06-08-2011, 12:44 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
Again - no one has said that he's a "4th-5th" defenseman. Numerous people have said that Girardi is good, but he's not a 1st pairing defenseman. He's a #3. Nearly everyone agree with that.
I would agree with that..he is a #3 but when paired with a #1 he is an adequate #2.

So, a team like Colorado who is needs a dman in the worst way would offer David Jones up for Giradi.

See, that is a deal that makes sense...Giradi for David Jones.

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06-08-2011, 12:46 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I would agree with that..he is a #3 but when paired with a #1 he is an adequate #2.

So, a team like Colorado who is needs a dman in the worst way would offer David Jones up for Giradi.

See, that is a deal that makes sense...Giradi for David Jones.
That's actually not too bad...I'd do that, but Jones has a pretty lengthy injury history, so I would hesitate if it was straight up. That's probably because Jones is one of my favorite non-Rangers, though.

And I would not do that THIS offseason. Can't trade Girardi now unless we get an upgrade back.


Last edited by JeffMangum: 06-08-2011 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Added sentence.
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06-08-2011, 12:46 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
this eloquently sums the case I've been making on why Girardi should NOT be rushed out the door, but certainly moved if there is a good deal.
Every player should be moved if it's a good deal that improves the team.

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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
IMO a good deal is either an upgrade in F (forget this nonsense about getting someone elite, that's not happening without adding a lot, usually assets we prefer to keep)
OR
you add and get a solid caliber D who can be adequate at minimum w/our above average D, then earn his keep with great shooting, coming in and pinching or from the point on a power play.

DG is not across the board elite. He is a borderline All Star in that he is the best shot blocking D in the league, the rest of his D skills are above average across the board (terrific positioning and stick checking; average play the body), his offense is mediocre at best, being smart enough to get the puck to someone else.
Upgrade where at Forward? And whom? If Girardi's a borderline (defensive) All Star, shouldn't we only consider trading him for a player who equally excels in some aspect of the game like he does? Scoring forwards are elite players, so unless we're getting something close to that back, it's a non-starter.

Moving him for an upgrade at Defense isn't happening. You're not going to see Girardi+ moved for Burns. Would you trade Staal for a lesser player +? I think not . . . GM's aren't stupid. Not most of them, anyway.

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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
While his value is high, and we have enough depth, let's move him sooner than later.
And for everyone who said last year, no we can't trade Rozi or Girardi because Sauer and McDonaugh and this one and that one aren't ready, yeah, it wasn't necessarily hand in glove like clockwork, but I went against the grain on that and the proof is I was right about it.

I'll be proven correct about this too.
There's no reason to assume Girardi's value isn't going to remain high. 'Enough depth' doesn't mean Sauer's going to cut it as our 1-RD.

Assuming this team signs Richards, the only position we should look to upgrade is a #1 LW.

How many LW's in this league would be available for Girardi(+)? How old is that player? Young enough to blend and grow with our core? What about his contract? Is it as fair as Girardi's? Will that player be a Torts kind of guy?

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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
True, to an extent.

You can also get by with a forward thats skilled at dictating play and distributing from the blueline on the PP. Hey, there just happens to be one thats available on July 1 - the same guy that would also help our severe #1C problem.
That 1C and this guy here should certainly spice up the PP. There might not even be a need for a PPQB.


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06-08-2011, 12:48 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
They were brought up because you said Giradi had no business being on the powerplay, I said he had 31 points, Myers only had 37, you completely minimize Giradi to the point where he shouldn't even be on the team and since he has no value, we can't even trade him.
You post in such absolutes and, in some cases, just make up things. It makes it extraordinarily difficult to have an intelligent conversation with you.

Myers struggled mightily last season, Girardi played just about as well as he could possibly play. Myers still outproduced Girardi, so I dont know what kind of point youre trying to make about the powerplay.

The bolded part above is where you just go off and make up stuff. Show me where I said Girardi has no value to/shouldnt be on this team. Hes fine. Not a legitimate 1st pairing D-man and not a guy I want on my powerplay though.

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06-08-2011, 12:50 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post
That's actually not too bad...I'd do that, but Jones has a pretty lengthy injury history, so I would hesitate if it was straight up.

And I would not do that THIS offseason. Can't trade Girardi now unless we get an upgrade back.
ok, now we are cooking...Jones and a 3rd for Giradi, this year and we sign Eric Brewer for 3 years 10 million...not sure if he would take a million dollar paycut but then we can focus on Jonathan Ericcson.

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06-08-2011, 12:56 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You post in such absolutes and, in some cases, just make up things. It makes it extraordinarily difficult to have an intelligent conversation with you.

Myers struggled mightily last season, Girardi played just about as well as he could possibly play. Myers still outproduced Girardi, so I dont know what kind of point youre trying to make about the powerplay.

The bolded part above is where you just go off and make up stuff. Show me where I said Girardi has no value to/shouldnt be on this team. Hes fine. Not a legitimate 1st pairing D-man and not a guy I want on my powerplay though.
Myers stuggled at the beginning of the year and then rebounded in the 2nd half.

You imply that Giradi is only good because he is paired with Staal, I think Giradi is a top 4 on almost every team in the league outside a small handful of teams.

maybe I misintrepreted what you original said but your wording again implies that Giradi was only good because of Staal and that is not true.

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06-08-2011, 12:58 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
I don't think he'll be traded now, but down the road, I could see one of Girardi, Sauer, or McDonagh being traded. There's just far too much redundancy in the top 4.

And I agree with BRB. Girardi is a not a top pairing defenseman. He's really more of a #3. Ideally, I'd want someone who excels offensively and is defensively capable to play on the top pair with Staal. But who knows if that will happen.
See, I don't agree. Girardi and Staal both move the puck well enough...and I'd rather have two really sound defensive players out against the other teams top guys.

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06-08-2011, 01:01 PM
  #62
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If there are two players on the team that it makes sense to deal in the near future, it is Girardi and Boyle, preferably in a package together, along with prospects and/or picks, for a better offensive defenseman, or failing that, a top 6 forward.

Girardi is a very good second pairing defenseman, but he brings little to the table offensively, he's not particularly fast, and we have several younger and cheaper players that are capable of filling his niche on the team adequately. He's good enough that he'll attract value and suitors, but not so good that dealing him would leave us with a gaping hole.

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06-08-2011, 01:20 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
ok, now we are cooking...Jones and a 3rd for Giradi, this year and we sign Eric Brewer for 3 years 10 million...not sure if he would take a million dollar paycut but then we can focus on Jonathan Ericcson.
How about a big HELL NO. **** Jones. If we are trading Girardi +, i would like a player who is already established as a top winger/center in the league. Jones has had 1 good season.

Eric Brewer? Is that a joke? There are players that are much better than him that we can sign next offseason. If we keep drury and just let his contract expire next year while losing all of Wolski's caphit, we can afford a player like Brent Burns, while trading Girardi + for a top forward.

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06-08-2011, 01:27 PM
  #64
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A guy that plays, and plays well, on a teams top pairing on defence for one of the better defensive teams in the league (top 10) against opposing teams best offensive forwards is not a legit top pair defenceman?

interesting.

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06-08-2011, 01:28 PM
  #65
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A guy that plays, and plays well, on a teams top pairing on defence for one of the better defensive teams in the league (top 10) against opposing teams best offensive forwards is not a legit top pair defenceman?

interesting.
Who are you talking about?
wait nevermind haha, i thought that was in context with what i was saying..

Ehh idk what to say girardi is. Id say hes an awesome #3 and a decent #2. Not taking anything away from him, bc i love him. I think hes a borderline top pairing dman

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06-08-2011, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Who are you talking about?
Who's the thread about?

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06-08-2011, 01:41 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
How about a big HELL NO. **** Jones. If we are trading Girardi +, i would like a player who is already established as a top winger/center in the league. Jones has had 1 good season.

Eric Brewer? Is that a joke? There are players that are much better than him that we can sign next offseason. If we keep drury and just let his contract expire next year while losing all of Wolski's caphit, we can afford a player like Brent Burns, while trading Girardi + for a top forward.
I would think Giradi could fetch more than Jones, that is why I was throwing a 3rd in there but even that is probably not enough for Giradi. It was Jones first healthy season and he put in 27 though.

Brent Burns is going to command welll over 5 million a year...proabably closer to 6 a year for 5-7 years.

I was offering Brewer a 3 year deal worth 3.333 a year.

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06-08-2011, 01:47 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I would think Giradi could fetch more than Jones, that is why I was throwing a 3rd in there but even that is probably not enough for Giradi. It was Jones first healthy season and he put in 27 though.

Brent Burns is going to command welll over 5 million a year...proabably closer to 6 a year for 5-7 years.

I was offering Brewer a 3 year deal worth 3.333 a year.
Girardi + would fetch us MUCH more than Jones. So what Prucha had 30.. does that mean he was a top line player? If im trading Girardi i want a proven top line player.

If you read my other posts, i was stating that depending upon Richards, i would keep drury and wolski till their contracts run out next year along with Avery's and that opens up 12-13m in capspace. With having all of our Core signed long term.. Bringing in Brent Burns for 5m a year to play along side Staal to have our top pairing. We would then have Burns and our 1st line PLUS capspace

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06-08-2011, 02:46 PM
  #69
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The Rangers have a glut of YOUNG defensemen... Sauer and McDonough are entering year two. Erixon will be a rookie, and who plays with him? I think DZ needs some AHL seasoning with his defense... The Rangers have a terrific young D-core, but I don't see why you cripple that by dealing a guy whose on your top pair whose in his mid-twenties and locked up to a conservative contract..

Staal - Girardi
Sauer - Mcdonaugh
Erixon - ?

That looks pretty good for next year...

Staal - Sauer
Mcdonaugh - Erixon
? - ?

... and again, what if Staal went down ... I really don't see the logic unless someone blows you out of the water...
Ok but they do have A GLUT. I'm not advocating anything either way.

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06-08-2011, 03:02 PM
  #70
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I'd say you could add in some stopgap bottom defenders or chase a guy like Ericsson/Babchuk but this is Sather so it might not be advisable. And I'd agree with other posters here, seems like the Rangers are just in the growing pains spot where you can see the light at the end of the tunnel but you still got a bit of a way to go. Until Erixon/MDZ/McIlrath can really make the jump or Sather can secure a trade that gets the Rangers a truely scary D corp we're stuck with Giradi (not the worst thing) and Eminger. I don't know what's happening with Gilroy though yet, is he on his way out or is he actually being re-signed as an RFA?
Gilroy's qualifying offer is going to be pretty substantial (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it something like 2.1 mil?). I doubt he'll be qualified. If he chooses to resign with us for 1 million or something, then we could see him back.

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06-08-2011, 03:48 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Some of you guys are funny..

Girardi didn't look 'terrible' or 'bad' w/o Staal beside him.
Hell, there were numerous moments this past season where Girardi was more reliable defensively than Marc.

You guys stretch things like whoa.
Agreed.

Maybe before giving Staal all the credit for the success of that 1st pairing, we should see how Staal does without Girardi.

And a 27 yr old Dman is considered young enough by me. He's not worth trading for a 20G 20A forward, which is all that he would get.

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06-08-2011, 04:05 PM
  #72
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Agreed.

Maybe before giving Staal all the credit for the success of that 1st pairing, we should see how Staal does without Girardi.
Staal played without Girardi on 1/24 against the Caps, and the Rangers won 2-1 in a shootout. Sauer and Gilroy both played 24 minutes, Staal played 29, and the Caps' goal was scored with Gilroy and McDonagh on the ice.

No Girardi again on 1/25 against Florida. We lost 4-3. Staal played 26 minutes, Gilroy played about 23, and Sauer played 22 and change. The first and second goals were scored with MDZ and Eminger on the ice, the third goal had Gilroy and McDonagh on the ice, and the fourth goal had Gilroy and Del Zotto on the ice.

Staal played about 55 minutes with Sauer in those two games, and we didn't give up a goal with him on the ice. He was +1 in those two games.

Anybody know what games Staal missed? I'm too lazy to figure it out.

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06-08-2011, 04:12 PM
  #73
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Rangers had two big wins with Staal out of the lineup--one against Washington with Girardi-Gilroy paired and another against a hot Pittsburgh team (even without Malkin--Crosby) the afternoon that McDonagh got run by Cooke--Girardi paired with Eminger in that one. I think that there is some evidence there to dispel the notion that Girardi is completely useless without Staal.

Girardi led the league with blocked shots--236. He had 195 hits. His 31 points led the Rangers defensemen in that category--while not getting prime pwp time. I fail to see how ridding yourself of your highest point producer on defense is going to necessarily lead to more offensive output from the backline. I think Staal is the better all around player but he's not IMO better on the pwp than Girardi even if he gets a lot more pwp time. Marc is capable of the odd spectacular goal--but more apt to fumble the puck or force plays on the pwp. He's not got the instincts of say MDZ--nor has he proven to be capable of walking the line. In either case of Girardi or Staal I don't why we're going on about their pwp abilities. They have some offense but they're both really better suited as second unit options.

The Devils last year signed Anton Volchenkov to a 6 year $25.5 mil (4.25 mil per) contract. Girardi has 3 years left at $3.325 mil. The often injured Volchenkov known for his physical play and shot blocking has never been all that much offensively. Girardi at this point almost blows him away--with his being younger, rarely missing games to injury, his shotblocking and hitting at least equal and his ability to provide some offense.

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06-08-2011, 04:25 PM
  #74
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Girardi does need a good partner to work with but I don't think it's exclusive to Staal. Girardi-Tyutin was a bad-ass duo when they were together.

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06-08-2011, 04:30 PM
  #75
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Anybody know what games Staal missed? I'm too lazy to figure it out.
Here are Girardi's stats from those games.

2/25 vs. Caps: W 6-0 15m Even
2/27 vs. TB: L 2-1 15m Even
3/1 vs. Sabres: L 3-2 21 m +1
3/20 vs. Pens: W 5-2 20m Even
3/22 vs. Panthers: W 1-0 23m +1

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