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The Flyers & Columbus' 8th Overall pick

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Old
06-08-2011, 11:19 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by PhillyCurt12 View Post
that's pretty wishful thinking on leino and gagne. i think it would take 3 mil a piece to keep them here. you also can't rely on a defenseman to step in right from juniors, although gus and marshall are knocking at the door and would likely benefit from some time w/ pronger.
Yeah, I figure Gagne is old and very injury prone - I believe 2.5 is acceptable. I think Leino really wants to stay in Philly and 2-2.5 is reasonable IMO (if it goes over 3, just keep Versteeg instead).

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06-08-2011, 11:23 AM
  #27
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I may be alone on this, but I feel like Briere plays a much bigger game than his height. He was outmuscling Chara in the corners during the Boston series. Granted, that could just be Chara.
not hard to push someone around when you only come up to their knees lol

briere totally has leverage hax on chara.

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06-08-2011, 11:36 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
Lets say we move Carter + Carle for Voracek + #8 + medium prospect? Sign Gagne?

Gagne [2.5] - Richards [5.75] - Nodl [1.1]
Hartnell [4.2] - Briere [6.5] - Leino [2.2]
JVR [1.6] - Giroux [3.75] - Voracek [1.2]
Shelley [1.1] - Betts [0.7] - Powe/AHL Player/FA [0.6]


Pronger [5.0] - #8 pick? [~1.2]
Coburn [3.2] - Timonen [6.3]
O'Donnell/Vet Dman [1.3] - Meszaros [4.0]

Bryz [5.5]
Bob [1.75]


That right there is ~59.5 million
We need to get a lot more back. Break that trade down...we're getting fleeced. I know Voracek is good and all, but Carter should get us a damn good return. If someone sent Carter an offer sheet and he signed it...we'd be getting back 4 #1s.

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06-08-2011, 11:38 AM
  #29
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Somebody mentioned that a player..particularly a D man coming out of juniors and playing right away is unlikely. I agree since defensemen develop slower...however how many of first 5 projected picks who are supposedly impact are D men? Again haven't really delved into this so seeking insight? How many of the top ten picks are D men? I would think there is somebody in that mix that might surprise? Maybe the 8th could be leveraged into something higher although you would think Columbus would try and do that...

Anyway...at some point we have to develop one of our own D men (obviously the draft and a high draft pick is the key) which even Meltzer in a write up recently said we've been terrible at...almost along the lines of how bad we've been with developing goalies which obviously is much harder. We can't just rely on trying to get them in trades or free agency..they cost us more and since we're always up against the cap it becomes almost impossible to get anything of impact without cannibalizing yourself like with Pronger. What happens next year if Pronger can't play as much as we need him to play this season? What happens if Timonen gets hurt? We need to focus on building from the net up. We need to be proactive rather than reactive and it starts with this offseaon. Utilizing the LTIR deal if one of our two anchors gets hurt only goes so far especially if it's one of these in and out of the lineup type injuries that may be the case with Pronger.

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06-08-2011, 11:40 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
We need to get a lot more back. Break that trade down...we're getting fleeced. I know Voracek is good and all, but Carter should get us a damn good return. If someone sent Carter an offer sheet and he signed it...we'd be getting back 4 #1s.
I donno, it was a place to start...

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06-08-2011, 11:42 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
I donno, it was a place to start...
Maybe they can throw in some 2nd and thirds god knows we need to get some back!

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06-08-2011, 11:45 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
Very good business way of looking at the situation. We draft a stud defender, put him on the 3rd pairing, maybe with Pronger? and develop him with Coburn/Mez for the next 2-3 years to replace Prongs/Timonen.

I'm not sure Columbus would give up both Voracek and #8 pick for just Carter.
Yeah, Pronger will play 3rd pairing minutes.


Carter won't be moved, it's Hartnell, Versteeg and Carle before Carter is moved.

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06-08-2011, 11:47 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
You are equating "cheap" players with them being lesser players productively..that is not how it works. You are creating a false equivalency.

Again this is about possibly getting a promising prospect (with that 8th pick) to replace/develop one of our anchor D men for now who would be able to contribute fairly quick and be a good cap hit. Then adding a very good winger at a good cap hit and then possibly even getting another asset. This is all about putting a product on the ice that is deeper yet still productive and affordable cap wise.
I'd rather have one guy who can put up 40 goals instead of 3 guys who can put up 45-55. It's better to have one person who can do that instead of the equivalent of an entire line doing it.

This trade would be grand if the Flyers needed to rebuild. I don't think we are at that point yet. Let's see how things play out in the next few seasons; such a trade doesn't seem truly necessary right now...especially since this is supposedly a weak draft year.

edit: I would love to have a good D prospect though...or ANY prospects.

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06-08-2011, 11:48 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
Yeah, I figure Gagne is old and very injury prone - I believe 2.5 is acceptable. I think Leino really wants to stay in Philly and 2-2.5 is reasonable IMO (if it goes over 3, just keep Versteeg instead).
Gagne's not really old, he's 31. He's just been around since he's 19. Even if he is injury prone, Tim Connolly got $4.5 Million after coming off of two 48 game seasons. I'm not saying he'll get that much, but if he were only on the market for $2.5 million, Tampa would have resigned him already.

Leino is reported asking for a very big raise, at least from Meltzer and a Finnish news article.

Meltzer:
Quote:
Leino earned $800,000 last season. It has been reported that the Flyers' ballpark offer for the Finnish winger is somewhere in the neighborhood of $2.8 million. Through his agent, Bill Zito, Leino is reportedly seeking somewhere in the neighborhood of $3.5 million. In and of itself, this is a gap that can be bridged, even considering the Flyers' need to free significant cap space to get a goaltender.
Finnish Article:
Quote:
"We're feeling things a bit right now and the negotiations officially begin on July 1st."

And how much is Leino going to get?

"It won't be less than a million", Leino smiles.

Leino also doesn't exclude the possibility of signing elsewhere. He believes there will be other GMs knocking on his door come July.

Wherever he signs, he's looking for a long term deal.

"I'm a bit of a different type of player, so I think there's demand for a player like me in many teams. Of course I want to be on a good team and in a good role."

"And when you're signing a long term deal, money is one part of it, of course."

Leino has made it clear before that he's able to enjoy his new luxury life style, so a bigger contract would be good news for him off the ice, too.

"Money gives you opportunities to do things that you couldn't do otherwise. You can live in a bit bigger apartment, drive a bit better car, buy a bit more expensive clothes and travel to places you couldn't get to otherwise. The greatest thing is that you can get experiences that you wouldn't have the chance to get otherwise."

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Old
06-08-2011, 11:51 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Ghost of Downie View Post
Gagne's not really old, he's 31. He's just been around since he's 19. Even if he is injury prone, Tim Connolly got $4.5 Million after coming off of two 48 game seasons. I'm not saying he'll get that much, but if he were only on the market for $2.5 million, Tampa would have resigned him already.

Leino is reported asking for a very big raise, at least from Meltzer and a Finnish news article.

Meltzer:


Finnish Article:
I think Leino needs to walk in one of his many pairs of shoes he supposedly collects...not getting a good vibe with this guy anymore....

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06-08-2011, 11:51 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Yeah, Pronger will play 3rd pairing minutes.


Carter won't be moved, it's Hartnell, Versteeg and Carle before Carter is moved.
Those were two different thoughts.

With Pronger or With XXX on the third pairing.

What's wrong with saying it won't be less than a million?


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 06-08-2011 at 11:54 AM. Reason: merging
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06-08-2011, 11:55 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
Those were two different thoughts.

With Pronger or With XXX on the third pairing.
XXX better be nobody.
Why in hell would the Flyers play Chris Pronger on the third pairing?

He made Carle look good playing 25+min / game.

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06-08-2011, 11:55 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'd rather have one guy who can put up 40 goals instead of 3 guys who can put up 45-55. It's better to have one person who can do that instead of the equivalent of an entire line doing it.

This trade would be grand if the Flyers needed to rebuild. I don't think we are at that point yet. Let's see how things play out in the next few seasons; such a trade doesn't seem truly necessary right now...especially since this is supposedly a weak draft year.

edit: I would love to have a good D prospect though...or ANY prospects.
Well it's not just about goals but I've tried to explain that but doesn't seem to be getting through..

Nonetheless, if Holmgren and others want to continue to have a death grip on Carter which I find unreasonable considering some of the potential deals that can be realized well then let's move Carle or whatever and get that 8th pick and draft a D man prospect. I don't think Columbus will go for it though....

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06-08-2011, 12:02 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Well it's not just about goals but I've tried to explain that but doesn't seem to be getting through..

Nonetheless, if Holmgren and others want to continue to have a death grip on Carter which I find unreasonable considering some of the potential deals that can be realized well then let's move Carle or whatever and get that 8th pick and draft a D man prospect. I don't think Columbus will go for it though....
Yeah, it's about more than goals...and Carter does those things well, too. Like I mentioned though, that's the sort of trade you make when you're trying to rebuild. We aren't at that point. We can avoid it completely by just keeping our damned picks from here on out. Also, if we ever get to the point where we need to rebuild...Carter's contract is pretty easy to build around.

By the time we start getting into potentially desperate straits Timonen and Briere will be coming off the books. And with any luck (Yeah...right) we will be picking in the draft again.

It's pretty ridiculous that we are considering trading a sure thing in Carter to get top 10 pick prospects that may or may not pan out...but that's Holmgren's fault.

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06-08-2011, 12:15 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
XXX better be nobody.
Why in hell would the Flyers play Chris Pronger on the third pairing?

He made Carle look good playing 25+min / game.
Facepalm, hard.

OPTION #1: WITH PRONGER - Play with best defender during even play and gain experience while having ass covered.

OPTION #2: PLAY ON THIRD PAIRING W/ PLAYER TO BE NAMED: Put the rookie on the third pairing, limit his play.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 06-08-2011 at 12:18 PM. Reason: Cleanup
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06-08-2011, 12:38 PM
  #41
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I'm worried if they move Carter. The adverse reaction it could have on Richards would be nothing short of devastating. Those two are best friends and Mike is loyal to his friends. I could possibly see Richards lashing out at the organization for making such a move and possibly asking to be moved as well. Moving Carter could have some serious negative side effects.....

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06-08-2011, 12:41 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I'm worried if they move Carter. The adverse reaction it could have on Richards would be nothing short of devastating. Those two are best friends and Mike is loyal to his friends. I could possibly see Richards lashing out at the organization for making such a move and possibly asking to be moved as well. Moving Carter could have some serious negative side effects.....
I'm not concerned that way. What I am concerned about if Carter moves is that the Flyers no longer have a centre with any size. Against a lot of the league, it doesn't matter as much. But Richards/Giroux/Briere will and have gotten abused by big centres (Staal, Malkin to start with) in the faceoff circle.

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06-08-2011, 12:51 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
Facepalm, hard.

OPTION #1: WITH PRONGER - Play with best defender during even play and gain experience while having ass covered.

OPTION #2: PLAY ON THIRD PAIRING W/ PLAYER TO BE NAMED: Put the rookie on the third pairing, limit his play.
Hm, yeah.
Having a slow day.

Sorry buddy.

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06-08-2011, 12:52 PM
  #44
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I'm worried if they move Carter. The adverse reaction it could have on Richards would be nothing short of devastating. Those two are best friends and Mike is loyal to his friends. I could possibly see Richards lashing out at the organization for making such a move and possibly asking to be moved as well. Moving Carter could have some serious negative side effects.....
That would be rather childish of him..especially if he lashes out with another Bieberesque tweet. Seriously, he would be upset but at some point you have to act like a man in the business world.

There are concerns with moving him....but with the right deal they can be mitigated. I guess we shall see if anything develops...ESPN insider is talking about Carter trade proposals getting louder.

Maybe Bob gets traded instead as well as some other moves and Carter stays. Anything is possible at this point. Holmgren is going to need listen and be open minded about it all and of course smart if he does decide to pull the trigger. However, sometimes you can be made to look smart if the other team is dumber and offers more than they should and a trade becomes a no brainer of sorts. Going to be an interesting June and the draft might be interesting from a Flyers standpoint as well if a deal is made.

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06-08-2011, 12:56 PM
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No no no no a million times over.

The day we trade Jeff Carter to a team, he'll score 35-45 goals in the next season and the person we got will have done squat.

Then we'll be moaning and groaning that we traded Carter away in the first place for a nobody.


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06-08-2011, 01:09 PM
  #46
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Carter is the perfect peice, for the salary he makes, his trade value, and opening up the three centre slots for Richards, Briere and Giroux.

If we could get the 8th + Voracek + low draft pick for Carter i would be exctatic.

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06-08-2011, 01:11 PM
  #47
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the #8 draft pick will have a higher cap hit than 1.2 mill. This is the last year of the cba. All rookie bonusses count against this years' cap until they are no longer achievable ( ie - games played).

You are probably looking at 2.5 - 3 mill in salary plus possible performance bonuses for a #8 pick, especially if you think he is ready to lay this year.

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06-08-2011, 01:16 PM
  #48
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Ooof... dunno if I like Leino as much anymore.

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06-08-2011, 01:18 PM
  #49
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hmm intriguing...see this is what I mean about reallocation of assets. Trading Carter for the right package would position this team much better. A deal with Columbus for their 8th, Voracek and another prospect is def something the Flyers have to consider. People keep talking about why the Flyers would trade Carter after the deal they just signed. Well consider also why the Flyers left themselves a little breathing room with the NMC which doesn't kick in till later.
First of all it's a NTC not a NMC. Secondly, they didn't purposely leave themselve a "little breathing room" for the NTC. They had no choice due to the rules of the CBA. A player is not eligible for a NTC or a NMC until the player reaches their UFA eligibility. It had nothing to do with leaving space in case they wanted to trade him.

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06-08-2011, 01:20 PM
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That would be rather childish of him..especially if he lashes out with another Bieberesque tweet. Seriously, he would be upset but at some point you have to act like a man in the business world.

There are concerns with moving him....but with the right deal they can be mitigated. I guess we shall see if anything develops...ESPN insider is talking about Carter trade proposals getting louder.

Maybe Bob gets traded instead as well as some other moves and Carter stays. Anything is possible at this point. Holmgren is going to need listen and be open minded about it all and of course smart if he does decide to pull the trigger. However, sometimes you can be made to look smart if the other team is dumber and offers more than they should and a trade becomes a no brainer of sorts. Going to be an interesting June and the draft might be interesting from a Flyers standpoint as well if a deal is made.
This was also the same guy who was extremely upset when Holmgren moved Upshall and Lupul and then fired Stevens. Moving Carter would be the thing that could set Mike off. Is it childish? Yeah, but at the same time, I'm sure when Clarke drafted Carter and Richards, he probably told them that they would be the faces of the Flyers franchise for years to come.

As for ESPN, well, the Carter rumours have been happening for some time now. Like I said in previous threads, the fact that there's names being attached to the rumours now indicate that there's more than just smoke being blown with regards to Carter. There's legitimacy behind those rumours.

Now, I talked to my scout friends on Sunday and one of the things they mentioned about the Columbus rumours is that Carter might be flipped from Columbus to some where else. The Blue Jackets are hemorrhaging money like there's no tomorrow. That's not saying it's a guarantee that they'll move Carter, but unless they can find some new revenue to help soften the blow with regards to the losses they've been suffering, he might not be there for long.

The scouts that I have talked to have still said that Toronto is still interested and Los Angeles has been coming on strong as of late with a package for Carter. Their package includes one roster player, two prospects in Manchester and one prospect from junior hockey. No draft picks though.

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