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Old
06-07-2011, 10:32 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Well, if you would like to get into it, why dont you break it down for me?

Kindly detail with examples all the ways Gagner has improved and continues to improve.
Been through this a hundred times. You will show us Gagner's goals against average, I will cite intagibles such as the team he's playing for and the minutes he has been forced to play.

Repeat ad nauseum.

That isn't my point. My point was there are plenty of guys here who watch the same games we do who will say that Gagner is an improved player over what he was at 18, because that's what development is.

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06-07-2011, 10:34 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Been through this a hundred times. You will show us Gagner's goals against average, I will cite intagibles such as the team he's playing for and the minutes he has been forced to play.

Repeat ad nauseum.

That isn't my point. My point was there are plenty of guys here who watch the same games we do who will say that Gagner is an improved player over what he was at 18, because that's what development is.
All that time and you came up with that?

I gotta say Im disappointed.

You are saying he is progressing.

Prove it.

Lots of guys watch the games and say so doesnt cut it.

Sorry.

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06-07-2011, 10:47 PM
  #78
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How can I prove an opinion ? That was my point, in your opinion, which you're entitled to, he hasn't developed or progressed.

In others opinions, such as mine, he's an improved player over the 18 year old Gagner, and I'm not a fan boy.

Good call on taking a dig at me for not responding in 10 minutes though.

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06-07-2011, 10:48 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Been through this a hundred times. You will show us Gagner's goals against average, I will cite intagibles such as the team he's playing for and the minutes he has been forced to play.

Repeat ad nauseum.

That isn't my point. My point was there are plenty of guys here who watch the same games we do who will say that Gagner is an improved player over what he was at 18, because that's what development is.
If this is the basis for your opinion then I ask this: If Gagner wasn't playing on the 30th place team receiving first/second line minutes, would he be a 45 point scorer? You are correct - he is not playing the role that is best suited for him. The reality of this team is that Gagner is placed into a role he is not capable of excelling at. The problem is we do not need him as a third line centre.

He is expendable because he has value to another team where he can play reduced minutes and therefore an attempt should be made to get value in return for him. He is not the centre we need to play between Hall/Eberle/HemskyMPV.

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06-07-2011, 10:55 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
How can I prove an opinion ? That was my point, in your opinion, which you're entitled to, he hasn't developed or progressed.

In others opinions, such as mine, he's an improved player over the 18 year old Gagner, and I'm not a fan boy.

Good call on taking a dig at me for not responding in 10 minutes though.
You can use numbers and/or you can break down his individual skills/attributes with examples of how they have shown improvement, ie his speed has improved, his shot has more zip on it, his release is quicker etc...

There are many ways to back up your argument. Or at least there should be.

Im not saying get rid of Gagner, but if the right deal/opportunity presented itself, and it was up to me, I would have to consider it. Meanwhile he has a couple of years to show something. Based on last year, my expectations arent very high. I really was hoping that he would step up last year and show us something. I never got on his case before last summer. But his lackadaisical training camp had me steamed. He needs to do better than that.


Last edited by I am the Liquor: 06-07-2011 at 11:11 PM.
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Old
06-07-2011, 11:01 PM
  #81
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Ok folks, lets keep Gagner longer and HOPE he turns out. I have not seen any progression in Gagner's game for 2 yrs now.

There's also other player in the league I would never want thme on the Oilers; ie, Sedins, Kessler, Briere, etc... I could care less how great they are.

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06-07-2011, 11:07 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Im fully prepared to break down how he hasnt progressed, but then again, I wasnt the one in here making claims stated as fact, and ridiculing others who dont share my pov.
Did I hurt your feeler? What I said wasn't ridiculing anyone, sorry you took it that way.

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06-07-2011, 11:09 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
45 point second line centers aren't worthless.

45 point second line centers who are small, slow, inept at face-offs and devoid of two-way play are basically worthless.
This is where the red flags go up. It's not that he can't put up some points in a supporting role being trotted out on the top PP unit, the problem is that most really good teams don't have too many Gagner-like players and most have none at all. Who would Gagner's equal be on Chicago, Vancouver, LA, Pittsburgh, Philly, etc.?

There really are none. He'd be of use on a team void of offense but filled with size and defensively capable hockey players, Nashville perhaps? I haven't seen enough progress to make me think that he is ever going to "break out". He should get better over time, but IMO it won't be so much better that we'd regret drafting a guy like McNeill and in turn trading Gagner. Or perhaps even by moving Pitlick to center and hoping that he can be a 40-45 point center with limited PP time but with solid 2 way play and with size and physicality in that role.

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Old
06-07-2011, 11:12 PM
  #84
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FFS can no one have a debate without getting their feathers ruffled? Tone it down people, keep to the subject, no cute little shots at each other, etc.

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06-07-2011, 11:16 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Did I hurt your feeler? What I said wasn't ridiculing anyone, sorry you took it that way.
You are correct. It was my mistake. I apologize.

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06-07-2011, 11:56 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
Oilwings says it is Tambo's job to sell him high before his value runs out, and I sort of read that is part of Tambellini's job being to "pull a fast one" over other GMs by talking up Gagner to them.
Tambo did "pull a fast one" on Deano in LA in the Penner trade. Pretty sure DL and the Kings fans regret the trade. Penner was always lazy and it showed in the playoffs.

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06-08-2011, 12:00 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by oilwings View Post
Tambo did "pull a fast one" on Deano in LA in the Penner trade. Pretty sure DL and the Kings fans regret the trade. Penner was always lazy and it showed in the playoffs.
That's not "pulling a fast one."

Dustin Penner was playing fine as an Edmonton Oiler and in fact never had a stretch like he did with the Kings as an Oiler. That's just **** luck for the Kings.

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06-08-2011, 12:08 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
That's not "pulling a fast one."

Dustin Penner was playing fine as an Edmonton Oiler and in fact never had a stretch like he did with the Kings as an Oiler. That's just **** luck for the Kings.
Watching Penner for 3.5yrs on a nightly basis I knew what type of player he is. A lazy one. He had an OK season in Etown, nothing special.

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06-08-2011, 12:19 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by oilwings View Post
Watching Penner for 3.5yrs on a nightly basis I knew what type of player he is. A lazy one. He had an OK season in Etown, nothing special.
THen he's one of the more effective lazy players in recent history.

And regardless, I'm sure LA was expecting him to still be able to produce at the same clip he already was producing at while being lazy in Edmonton. Fact of the matter was that he performed significantly worse than he did in Edmonton.

THat's not because Steve Tambellini waved some magic hands and convinced Lombard that Penner is something that he is not.

Some times trades work out. Sometimes they don't. **** happens.

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06-08-2011, 01:29 AM
  #90
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I believe a Holy War is about to be launched between the Gagner fans and the Gagner haters, if it hasn't already been.

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06-08-2011, 02:33 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Sam89Gags View Post
I believe a Holy War is about to be launched between the Gagner fans and the Gagner haters, if it hasn't already been.
I see the light.

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06-08-2011, 10:25 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
In Henrik's 4th season, he was a 42 point 2nd line C who was 50% on the draw.

In Spezza's 4th season, he was a 92 point 1st line C who was 50.1% on the draw.

In Thornton's 4th season, he was a 71 point 2nd line who was 52% on the draw.

In Gagner's 4th season, he was a 42 point 2nd line C who was 43% on the draw and statistically the worst defensive forward in the league.
And these guys were still older than Gagner at that point. Years in the league isn't the only factor here, in fact AGE is more important in my mind. And "statistically the worst defensive forward" means nothing to me, there are no reliable defensive stats. Watch his games from his rookie year, and his games from last year. Gagner was much better in his own zone (no, still not "good", but improving"), and did much more against tougher opposition. I'd say that shows that he is improving. And honestly, if Gagner didn't have the stupid wrist cutting injury, he probably would have cracked 50.

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06-08-2011, 10:27 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
All that time and you came up with that?

I gotta say Im disappointed.

You are saying he is progressing.

Prove it.

Lots of guys watch the games and say so doesnt cut it.


Sorry.
What better way to judge a player than actually watching him play?

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06-08-2011, 10:30 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by oilwings View Post
Ok folks, lets keep Gagner longer and HOPE he turns out. I have not seen any progression in Gagner's game for 2 yrs now.

There's also other player in the league I would never want thme on the Oilers; ie, Sedins, Kessler, Briere, etc... I could care less how great they are.
You just named some of the best players in the league...it has become apparent that you like cheering for a basement dweller.

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06-08-2011, 11:13 AM
  #95
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Moving on from the Gagner sucks / no he doesn't debate....

Trading Cogliano right now could make sense for the Oilers. IMO his value isn't going to get much higher (he showed last season he can PK and play a relative two-way game), he is replaceable because we have younger, bigger centers in our system (O'marra, VV) who can step up and play in the NHL.

Trading Gagner doesn't make much sense right now for the Oil. IMO, he is harder to replace than Cogliano because we don't have anybody who can step up into a 2C role from within house, his trade value would be relatively low because of his defensive liabilities and he is probably a tad bit on the overpaid side.

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06-08-2011, 12:55 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
What better way to judge a player than actually watching him play?
If you dont know what you are looking at, I dont think it matters too much.

Would you listen to a book review from an illiterate?

Would you ask a blind person how your hair looks?

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06-08-2011, 01:06 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Been through this a hundred times. You will show us Gagner's goals against average, I will cite intagibles such as the team he's playing for and the minutes he has been forced to play.

Repeat ad nauseum.

That isn't my point. My point was there are plenty of guys here who watch the same games we do who will say that Gagner is an improved player over what he was at 18, because that's what development is.
I'll vouche for that Groucho! I really do see development in Gagners game. One of the more apparent things between his 1st year and now is the "tough minutes" he's had to play against many teams. His first year he and his line were very sheltered, not so much anymore. I also see improvment in his defensive game and how he see's the ice. His numbers might not prove it, but whatever....I see what I see, and this ain't the 1st year I've watched or been involved in hockey.

I think Excel is a good program for numbers...not so much for hockey and development of players.

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06-08-2011, 01:12 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
I'll vouche for that Groucho! I really do see development in Gagners game. One of the more apparent things between his 1st year and now is the "tough minutes" he's had to play against many teams. His first year he and his line were very sheltered, not so much anymore. I also see improvment in his defensive game and how he see's the ice. His numbers might not prove it, but whatever....I see what I see, and this ain't the 1st year I've watched or been involved in hockey.

I think Excel is a good program for numbers...not so much for hockey and development of players.
Gagner was one of the worst defensive forwards in the league. Only three are worse. Think about that. And watching him just confirms the numbers. He doesnt win puck battles or face offs so how in the world is he "good" defensively? He isnt even good positionally. Paajarvi was the defensive conscience on that line.

Did you notice how much more pp time he gets when compared to his first years?

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06-08-2011, 01:16 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Gagner was one of the worst defensive forwards in the league. Only three are worse. Think about that. And watching him just confirms the numbers. He doesnt win puck battles or face offs so how in the world is he "good" defensively? He isnt even good positionally. Paajarvi was the defensive conscience on that line.

Did you notice how much more pp time he gets when compared to his first years?
Ahh, but please do not put words in my mouth. I said Gagner was better defensively this year than his first. And he's losing puck battles due to the quality of opposition he faces now, as opposed to his first year or two.

You seriously do not see ANY development in this 21 year old kid?


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06-08-2011, 01:51 PM
  #100
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Ahh, but please do not put words in my mouth. I said Gagner was better defensively this year than his first. And he's losing puck battles due to the quality of opposition he faces now, as opposed to his first year or two.

You seriously do not see ANY development in this 21 year old kid?
He is losing puck battles because he is small, slow and weak. If he was the fourth worst forward in the league defensively, does that mean he was third worst? Worst? When he was 18? Lets get real. He wasnt even our #1 center for good stretches last year, so how is he facing "tough" opposition?

No I dont see any development. Nothing at all. It is concerning to say the least.

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