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Old
06-08-2011, 02:07 PM
  #101
alanschu
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If your metric for defensive ability is based purely upon the +/- rating, I think that your metric is not a very good assessment of the defensive rating of a player.

Yes Gagner is bad. Yes Gagner needs to improve, but I also feel he has shown improvements over his first 4 seasons.

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06-08-2011, 02:15 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
If your metric for defensive ability is based purely upon the +/- rating, I think that your metric is not a very good assessment of the defensive rating of a player.

Yes Gagner is bad. Yes Gagner needs to improve, but I also feel he has shown improvements over his first 4 seasons.
The numbers confirm what the eyes are seeing. Guy is a defensive liability. Not sure how this can be contended.

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06-08-2011, 02:32 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
He is losing puck battles because he is small, slow and weak. If he was the fourth worst forward in the league defensively, does that mean he was third worst? Worst? When he was 18? Lets get real. He wasnt even our #1 center for good stretches last year, so how is he facing "tough" opposition?

No I dont see any development. Nothing at all. It is concerning to say the least.
Maybe you aren't looking hard enough. Your hate for Gags has impeded your vision.

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06-08-2011, 02:58 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
Maybe you aren't looking hard enough. Your hate for Gags has impeded your vision.
I dont hate Gagner at all. You cant even articulate how he has improved. Sounds like a load of bull to me.

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06-08-2011, 03:08 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I dont hate Gagner at all.
Now that's bull.

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06-08-2011, 03:16 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I dont hate Gagner at all. You cant even articulate how he has improved. Sounds like a load of bull to me.
Sorry, the constant bashing in thread after thread towards Gagner by you comes across as hating IMO. You have yet to say a positive thing about this young, developing Edmonton Oiler. I certainly see no reason to believe you do not hate the player givin your history of vitriol towards him. And I'm not going to write down a list of points to prove he has been developing. If I were to do so, I would assume you would use your stats to disprove each and every point that is made. I'm not going to waste my time "articulating" wat I percieve as development by Gagner. It's my opinion that he is, nough said.

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06-08-2011, 03:25 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
Sorry, the constant bashing in thread after thread towards Gagner by you comes across as hating IMO. You have yet to say a positive thing about this young, developing Edmonton Oiler. I certainly see no reason to believe you do not hate the player givin your history of vitriol towards him. And I'm not going to write down a list of points to prove he has been developing. If I were to do so, I would assume you would use your stats to disprove each and every point that is made. I'm not going to waste my time "articulating" wat I percieve as development by Gagner. It's my opinion that he is, nough said.
I never said anything bad about the guy until he showed up at TC last year and played like he never had to worry about his job. He was awful, and it carried on through the year being awful.

If you cant make a case for how he has improved then Im afraid it is probably because you arent able to.

As far as believing whatever you want just because.................


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06-08-2011, 03:28 PM
  #108
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Edit: nvm. Not worth my time.

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06-08-2011, 03:36 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I never said anything bad about the guy until he showed up at TC last year and played like he never had to worry about his job. He was awful, and it carried on through the year being awful.

If you cant make a case for how he has improved then Im afraid it is probably because you arent able to.
No, we can, there just isn't any point because you obviously disagree anyway. There isn't anything that anyone could say to ease your hatred for this kid. Nobody here is claiming he is a perfect player. Yes, he isn't as quick as a player his size should be. Yes, he gets bumped off the puck too easily. But his vision and offensive skill are great, and despite what you see, I see that he is playing the game as a more confident player and is playing a better two way game, although again I admit, it still needs a lot of work. If he is still the same player in a few years, I will gladly admit that the kid didn't develop, but I think he will develop further.

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06-08-2011, 03:41 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
If you dont know what you are looking at, I dont think it matters too much.

Would you listen to a book review from an illiterate?

Would you ask a blind person how your hair looks?
Are you assuming that only the people who dislike Gagner know how to evaluate a player? Because that is not only incorrect, but borderline insulting.

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06-08-2011, 03:43 PM
  #111
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Watching Penner for 3.5yrs on a nightly basis I knew what type of player he is. A lazy one. He had an OK season in Etown, nothing special.
30 goal seasons are only OK and nothing special? There are hundreds of NHL'ers who won't ever even sniff Penner's seasons in Edmonton (not just the last two either). Penner isn't a superstar, but he certainly is a valuable player. Like in Edmonton, I expect he will do well in LA after an adjustment period.

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06-08-2011, 03:54 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Are you assuming that only the people who dislike Gagner know how to evaluate a player? Because that is not only incorrect, but borderline insulting.
"because people watching on tv say so"

1. There is no evidence this is actually the case.

2. There is no evidence that the "people" know wtf they are watching and/or talking about.

Most knowledgeable fans I talk with recognize Gagner's limitations.

Pretty much all of them are capable of making a case for why they agree/disagree about Gagner's progress or lack of it.

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06-08-2011, 05:08 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
Ahh, but please do not put words in my mouth. I said Gagner was better defensively this year than his first. And he's losing puck battles due to the quality of opposition he faces now, as opposed to his first year or two.

You seriously do not see ANY development in this 21 year old kid?
He's losing board battles because he is weak, that wouldn't change regardless of if he played against the opposing teams shut down unit or any line that has any kind of compete or size.

I see less offensive creativity, less offensive confidence, IMO he has regressed in some ways. I do recall a spin around a defenseman and a great pass to Paajarvi, that was circa Gagner '07-08, so there are still some flashes from Gagner but there needs to be more.

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06-08-2011, 06:32 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
"because people watching on tv say so"

1. There is no evidence this is actually the case.

2. There is no evidence that the "people" know wtf they are watching and/or talking about.

Most knowledgeable fans I talk with recognize Gagner's limitations.

Pretty much all of them are capable of making a case for why they agree/disagree about Gagner's progress or lack of it.
And, of course, that's assuming you know any knowledgeable fans? Just because you know them and agree with them doesn't make them any more knowledgeable than anyone else.

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06-08-2011, 06:43 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by oilfan22 View Post
And, of course, that's assuming you know any knowledgeable fans? Just because you know them and agree with them doesn't make them any more knowledgeable than anyone else.
Ive been here awhile, long enough to know who claimed Horcoff was a #1C and his contract was good value, long enough to know who thought Mactavish was a good coach, long enough to know who laughed at me for suggesting to trade Hemsky three years ago, long enough to know who was calling Penner cheeseburger one season and then was his biggest fan the next.

Im no expert, but Ive been here long enough to know who knows what's up and who doesnt know their ass from a fencepost.

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06-08-2011, 06:51 PM
  #116
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I have been on this board long enough to know that certain players are labelled and hyperbole is the mantra.

No one example is Penner.

Do I have some concerns about Gagner, yes? His speed and upper body strength being my main oness.

But like all players drafted by the Oilers, especially in the first round the expectations of these players are so high that it would almost be impossible to live up to the hype.

Gagner is still the second or is it third best player point wise drafted in his draft year.

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06-08-2011, 07:09 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
I have been on this board long enough to know that certain players are labelled and hyperbole is the mantra.

No one example is Penner.

Do I have some concerns about Gagner, yes? His speed and upper body strength being my main oness.

But like all players drafted by the Oilers, especially in the first round the expectations of these players are so high that it would almost be impossible to live up to the hype.

Gagner is still the second or is it third best player point wise drafted in his draft year.
Winning a face-off and understanding just an ounce of two-way hockey is impossibly high expectations?

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06-08-2011, 07:20 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
He's losing board battles because he is weak, that wouldn't change regardless of if he played against the opposing teams shut down unit or any line that has any kind of compete or size.

I see less offensive creativity, less offensive confidence, IMO he has regressed in some ways. I do recall a spin around a defenseman and a great pass to Paajarvi, that was circa Gagner '07-08, so there are still some flashes from Gagner but there needs to be more.
Some of this I will agree with. It looks like he's trying to do things differently and needs to 'find' his creative game again. His size is an issue but was less so in his rookie season, whether it was because he didn't have the same level of competition or the weight loss to get faster make him weak. We'll see if he corrects this year.

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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
I have been on this board long enough to know that certain players are labelled and hyperbole is the mantra.

No one example is Penner.

Do I have some concerns about Gagner, yes? His speed and upper body strength being my main oness.But like all players drafted by the Oilers, especially in the first round the expectations of these players are so high that it would almost be impossible to live up to the hype.

Gagner is still the second or is it third best player point wise drafted in his draft year.
Exactly. I doubt anyone believes he's a superstar but I'm not ready to write him off. Still too young to have lost his potential..

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06-08-2011, 07:22 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Winning a face-off and understanding just an ounce of two-way hockey is impossibly high expectations?
21 years old...Still lots of time to improve in both. Hopkins is lousy at faceoffs as well and everyone is giving him the #1 position. What if he doesn't improve on faceoffs for a few years? Gonna write him off?

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06-08-2011, 07:23 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Oilfan2 View Post
Some of this I will agree with. It looks like he's trying to do things differently and needs to 'find' his creative game again. His size is an issue but was less so in his rookie season, whether it was because he didn't have the same level of competition or the weight loss to get faster make him weak. We'll see if he corrects this year.



Exactly. I doubt anyone believes he's a superstar but I'm not ready to write him off. Still too young to have lost his potential..
What would you say the expiration date on his ability to get stronger is? Mid 20's? At what point do you wonder if he will ever get significantly stronger?

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06-08-2011, 09:12 PM
  #121
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What would you say the expiration date on his ability to get stronger is? Mid 20's? At what point do you wonder if he will ever get significantly stronger?
2 years...I wonder now, same as everyone else, if he'll get stronger. It's just I saw, and still see, his vision, stick-handling, passing and still have hope he can get stronger and improve his faceoffs. If he was 24-25, I wouldn't be optimistic..
If during the 2012-2013 season he hasn't either gotten stronger or found a way around it, I'll concede that he won't make it as a #2 center or wing...

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06-08-2011, 10:12 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Ive been here awhile, long enough to know who claimed Horcoff was a #1C and his contract was good value, long enough to know who thought Mactavish was a good coach, long enough to know who laughed at me for suggesting to trade Hemsky three years ago, long enough to know who was calling Penner cheeseburger one season and then was his biggest fan the next.

Im no expert, but Ive been here long enough to know who knows what's up and who doesnt know their ass from a fencepost.
This post is absolutely insulting to any hockey fan who has followed the game, even for a while.

I may not wish to list Gagner's development points, but if this post is directed in anyway to me:

- I started playing hockey in Germany when I was 5 years old
- I have faithfully followed the NHL and their teams, including the early 70's Canadiens, Boston Bruins and of course Philly Flyers
- I watched the Oilers as a WHA team, as well as watching them as a 1979 expansion team into this league
- The above makes me a fan of the game for about 37 years, non stop, no holds barred. If you wish to question some peoples knowledge of the game, I take it as a personal affront if you include someone like myself or many other posters on this forum.

I have no problem disagreeing with concepts regarding this game, but when it becomes **** slinging and questioning someone's knowledge of the game they were basically born into, then I have a real issue with it.

/rant

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Old
06-08-2011, 10:50 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
This post is absolutely insulting to any hockey fan who has followed the game, even for a while.

I may not wish to list Gagner's development points, but if this post is directed in anyway to me:

- I started playing hockey in Germany when I was 5 years old
- I have faithfully followed the NHL and their teams, including the early 70's Canadiens, Boston Bruins and of course Philly Flyers
- I watched the Oilers as a WHA team, as well as watching them as a 1979 expansion team into this league
- The above makes me a fan of the game for about 37 years, non stop, no holds barred. If you wish to question some peoples knowledge of the game, I take it as a personal affront if you include someone like myself or many other posters on this forum.

I have no problem disagreeing with concepts regarding this game, but when it becomes **** slinging and questioning someone's knowledge of the game they were basically born into, then I have a real issue with it.

/rant
Have you been wrong about just about everything you talk about on here?

In addition to being wrong just about all the time, do you find yourself telling others how idiotic or wrong or how they have no idea wtf they are talking about or to "watch the games"?

Does the above describe you?

I dont think it does.

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Old
06-08-2011, 10:53 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I dont hate Gagner at all. You cant even articulate how he has improved. Sounds like a load of bull to me.
Oh please, the way you talk about gagner makes it seem like he's the worst player in the NHL. I have no problem with people taking shots at him as long as they are reasonable. But you on the other hand, make it seem like you are some type of expert because you can pull out +\- statistics from a sheet. If you spent as much time watching the kid play rather than finding all the ways of bashing him then I think you'd see his improvements. Saying he has made no improvements is both oblivious and a load of bull.

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Old
06-08-2011, 10:55 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by GagZisKinG View Post
Oh please, the way you talk about gagner makes it seem like he's the worst player in the NHL. I have no problem with people taking shots at him as long as they are reasonable. But you on the other hand, make it seem like you are some type of expert because you can pull out +\- statistics from a sheet. If you spent as much time watching the kid play rather than finding all the ways of bashing him then I think you'd see his improvements. Saying he has made no improvements is both oblivious and a load of bull.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=3...&postcount=123

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