I wouldn't by any stretch say he was terrible, but he was much much more shaky than normal in most of those. I wouldn't say he completely rides Staal's coattails but he definitely plays better with Marc, which is understandable.
And IMO, Staal without Girardi has been much better than Girardi without Staal. I don't have any stats to back this up, but that's how I remember it.
A guy that plays, and plays well, on a teams top pairing on defence for one of the better defensive teams in the league (top 10) against opposing teams best offensive forwards is not a legit top pair defenceman?
interesting.
Yeah, has me questioning what people believe qualifies as a top pairing defensemen in the league. You don't have to be an all-star candidate to be a 1st pairing defensemen IMHO.
Yeah, has me questioning what people believe qualifies as a top pairing defensemen in the league. You don't have to be an all-star candidate to be a 1st pairing defensemen IMHO.
No, but if you want to contend for a Stanley Cup, you sure need at least one of the top defensemen in the league on your roster. One of the best centers in the league, at least, also.
Staal is a guy who would be a perfect compliment to a great offensive defenseman. So how are you going to get one of those guys with the assets we have?
No, but if you want to contend for a Stanley Cup, you sure need at least one of the top defensemen in the league on your roster. One of the best centers in the league, at least, also.
Staal is a guy who would be a perfect compliment to a great offensive defenseman. So how are you going to get one of those guys with the assets we have?
How about by simply letting Drury walk next year instead of buying him out.. His contract along with Avery's will free up about 10m in capspace, not including another 4m with wolski depending upon what we do with him.
Next years free agent defenseman include the likes of Mike Green and Brent Burns. with that ill say 11m in capspace, you sign Brent Burns to be Staal's partner.. Then trade Girardi plus for a 1st line forward.
No, but if you want to contend for a Stanley Cup, you sure need at least one of the top defensemen in the league on your roster. One of the best centers in the league, at least, also.
Carolina Hurricanes in 2006:
Kaberle
Ward
Hedican
Commodore
Wesley
Wallin
Quote:
Staal is a guy who would be a perfect compliment to a great offensive defenseman. So how are you going to get one of those guys with the assets we have?
How frequently do great offensive defensemen go on the market for a reasonable asking price? If people think this is a likelihood, then I think they'll be disappointed... The chances of a favorable trade springing up are very slim... We'd have better chances signing an offensive defensemen via free agency.
What if we don't trade Dan Girardi. The effects could be worse then the concerns about trading him.
McD, Girardi, Staal, and Sauer are guaranteed spots. Everyone in the hockey world has stated how Erixon is ready and his concern and reason for not wanting to sign with Calgary is because he didn't think he would have a chance to play on their NHL club. We've have to thin he's taking a spot too, that's 5. Who gets the last spot?
You'd have to think that MDZ would be the leading candidate considering his rookie campaign and the number of NHL games under his belt. Expect that MDZ and a veteran for safety makes the team for the 6th and 7th defenseman spots. That puts everyone else cut or in Hartford.
Matt Gilroy, he played well in the playoffs but really no one sheds a tear when the RFA turns UFA and walks away. The only impact here is maybe future UFAs look at the Ranger and decide not to sign. From here on, it gets sticky.
Valentenko is an RFA at 23, for the 2nd time, are the Rangers going to keep him or let him go after this year? Certainly if if Vtank doesn't crack the squad by 24 I can't see him sticking around for another year. As much as he's said he wants to be a Ranger the KHL or another team with a thinner squad will give him the chance like a Dallas or Edmonton.
If Valentenko doesn't make the Rangers then certainly a guy like Pashnin isn't going to bother wasting his time. He's got the skills and potential but he'll put it to use in the KHL where he played last year.
2 prospects that can be NHL talent, down the drain because we failed to make room.
Kundratek will probably be fine in the minors for another season but, next year or the year after, we're going to run into the same issue because Erixon, Staal, McD, Sauer, MDZ, and Girardi aren't old and will be kept around for several years. Eventually someone will have to go to make room for him and oh yeah...
McIlrath. Where is his spot in a year or two? By then guys like Erixon and MDZ have only solidified roles along side of McD, Staal and Sauer. When does Girardi go? Let him walk as a UFA? Ship him out as a rental?
Eventually you have to make room for someone, why not now.
The Rangers have 4 sold D, they are Staal, McD, Sauer and Erixon. Girardi is their #5
How about by simply letting Drury walk next year instead of buying him out.. His contract along with Avery's will free up about 10m in capspace, not including another 4m with wolski depending upon what we do with him.
Next years free agent defenseman include the likes of Mike Green and Brent Burns. with that ill say 11m in capspace, you sign Brent Burns to be Staal's partner.. Then trade Girardi plus for a 1st line forward.
I'm fine with that, but I doubt Green makes it to free agency. Burns, maybe, but if anything, I'd like to trade for him and make sure we get him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze
Carolina Hurricanes in 2006:
Kaberle
Ward
Hedican
Commodore
Wesley
Wallin
Anaheim in 2007:
Neidermayer and Pronger
Detroit in 2008:
Lidstrom and Rafalski
Pittsburgh in 2009:
Gonchar
Chicago in 2010:
Keith
Vancouver/Boston in 2011:
Ehrhoff/Chara, Kaberle
It's a lot easier to get far in the playoffs when you have defensemen that make a large impact in the offensive zone.
Quote:
How frequently do great offensive defensemen go on the market for a reasonable asking price? If people think this is a likelihood, then I think they'll be disappointed... The chances of a favorable trade springing up are very slim... We'd have better chances signing an offensive defensemen via free agency.
If the Wild feel they can't re-sign Burns, they'll trade him at the deadline.
I'm fine with that, but I doubt Green makes it to free agency. Burns, maybe, but if anything, I'd like to trade for him and make sure we get him.
Anaheim in 2007:
Neidermayer and Pronger
Detroit in 2008:
Lidstrom and Rafalski
Pittsburgh in 2009:
Gonchar
Chicago in 2010:
Keith
Vancouver/Boston in 2011:
Ehrhoff/Chara, Kaberle
It's a lot easier to get far in the playoffs when you have defensemen that make a large impact in the offensive zone.
If the Wild feel they can't re-sign Burns, they'll trade him at the deadline.
I have no interest in wasting valuable assets in order to get Burns for half a season and to sign him again. Those assets should be used for a top line forward. Not another defenseman. We have tons of talented youth coming up in the next few years and will need space on the team. I dont mind going for Burns in FA.. Then trading Girardi + for a player like Stasny or Spezza
I have no interest in wasting valuable assets in order to get Burns for half a season and to sign him again. Those assets should be used for a top line forward. Not another defenseman. We have tons of talented youth coming up in the next few years and will need space on the team. I dont mind going for Burns in FA.. Then trading Girardi + for a player like Stasny or Spezza
If we get Richards, I don't know that we would need another big time forward. Adding Richard and Burns would satisfy our quota of top players.
Richards
Gaborik
Burns
Staal
Lundqvist
Guys like Kreider, Thomas, etc. will develop into the other offensive players we need.
I have no interest in wasting valuable assets in order to get Burns for half a season and to sign him again. Those assets should be used for a top line forward. Not another defenseman. We have tons of talented youth coming up in the next few years and will need space on the team. I dont mind going for Burns in FA.. Then trading Girardi + for a player like Stasny or Spezza
Sigh. Such a trade would go down assuming Burns would sign an extension with us. Of course, we don't trade Girardi for potentially half a season of Burns.
It doesn't really matter whether or not we use Girardi to acquire a defenseman or a top six forward, and get the other through free agency. But you'll need to add quite a bit to him if you expect Girardi to nab you Stastny or Spezza. Besides, with Richards, we'll be looking for help on the wing.
I'm fine with that, but I doubt Green makes it to free agency. Burns, maybe, but if anything, I'd like to trade for him and make sure we get him.
Anaheim in 2007:
Neidermayer and Pronger
Detroit in 2008:
Lidstrom and Rafalski
Pittsburgh in 2009:
Gonchar
Chicago in 2010:
Keith
Vancouver/Boston in 2011:
Ehrhoff/Chara, Kaberle
It's a lot easier to get far in the playoffs when you have defensemen that make a large impact in the offensive zone.
Our biggest weakness is not offense from the blueline at even strength though, it's lack of a shooter & PPQB on the point during the PP... You look at Gonchar's impact on the Pens playoff runs, and his greatest contribution to the team is not at even strength, but on the PP. I think this pressing need for an offensive defensemen that people are feeling, would be quelled by us finding a fixture for our PP, whether it be a forward (Richards) or any combination of other players (MDZ, Erixon, etc). No doubt I'd like to have an offensive defensemen back there in the top 4, but I want somebody who plays above average defense back there, and I'm not optimistic in the least bit about a good candidate coming along that we can acquire for a reasonable price. I think once the Rangers fix their PP woes and become at least one of top 10 teams in the league as far as PP proficiency goes, fans as a whole will be a lot less worried about offensive defensemen on our blueline.
Quote:
If the Wild feel they can't re-sign Burns, they'll trade him at the deadline.
How good is Burns defensively? It he's not solid in his own zone, I'm not entertaining trading Girardi to replace him with a guy who's about to hit UFA and ask for a raise that would make him our highest paid defenseman. Lots of risk involved there. Short-sample size with the team, and impending July 1st deadline which drives up the asking price.
If we get Richards, I don't know that we would need another big time forward. Adding Richard and Burns would satisfy our quota of top players.
Richards
Gaborik
Burns
Staal
Lundqvist
Guys like Kreider, Thomas, etc. will develop into the other offensive players we need.
Yes i completly agree, IF we sign Richards then i would say go ahead and make the trade for Burns or for a top LW.. But if not id rather trade girardi + to get my top forward and sign Burns in the offseason. Ill take my chances with that because even without Burns you have to remember that we have TONS of talented players waiting to come up such as MDZ, V-Tank, Kundratek, Pashnin, McIlrath to name a few. So my main priority is to deal for what is needed which is a scoring top line forward.. not another defenseman that we can get in free agency without having to give up anyone.
By the way if you look at the Free Agency Class of 2012 youll see there are better defensman coming out than forwards.. so you see why im advocating to do it this way rather than the other way bc it gives us the better chance of getting what we want and need.
What if we don't trade Dan Girardi. The effects could be worse then the concerns about trading him.
McD, Girardi, Staal, and Sauer are guaranteed spots. Everyone in the hockey world has stated how Erixon is ready and his concern and reason for not wanting to sign with Calgary is because he didn't think he would have a chance to play on their NHL club. We've have to thin he's taking a spot too, that's 5. Who gets the last spot?
You'd have to think that MDZ would be the leading candidate considering his rookie campaign and the number of NHL games under his belt. Expect that MDZ and a veteran for safety makes the team for the 6th and 7th defenseman spots. That puts everyone else cut or in Hartford.
Matt Gilroy, he played well in the playoffs but really no one sheds a tear when the RFA turns UFA and walks away. The only impact here is maybe future UFAs look at the Ranger and decide not to sign. From here on, it gets sticky.
Valentenko is an RFA at 23, for the 2nd time, are the Rangers going to keep him or let him go after this year? Certainly if if Vtank doesn't crack the squad by 24 I can't see him sticking around for another year. As much as he's said he wants to be a Ranger the KHL or another team with a thinner squad will give him the chance like a Dallas or Edmonton.
If Valentenko doesn't make the Rangers then certainly a guy like Pashnin isn't going to bother wasting his time. He's got the skills and potential but he'll put it to use in the KHL where he played last year.
2 prospects that can be NHL talent, down the drain because we failed to make room.
Kundratek will probably be fine in the minors for another season but, next year or the year after, we're going to run into the same issue because Erixon, Staal, McD, Sauer, MDZ, and Girardi aren't old and will be kept around for several years. Eventually someone will have to go to make room for him and oh yeah...
McIlrath. Where is his spot in a year or two? By then guys like Erixon and MDZ have only solidified roles along side of McD, Staal and Sauer. When does Girardi go? Let him walk as a UFA? Ship him out as a rental?
Eventually you have to make room for someone, why not now.
The Rangers have 4 sold D, they are Staal, McD, Sauer and Erixon. Girardi is their #5
Yeah, that definitely explains why Dan Girardi was our second best d-man this season and in the playoffs...oh wait, it doesn't.
Girardi is the epitome of solid paired next to Staal. Losing him would hurt a strong defense to help an anemic offense. Which is the trade off you have to make if we get Richards and a top line LWer is available.
What if we don't trade Dan Girardi. The effects could be worse then the concerns about trading him.
McD, Girardi, Staal, and Sauer are guaranteed spots. Everyone in the hockey world has stated how Erixon is ready and his concern and reason for not wanting to sign with Calgary is because he didn't think he would have a chance to play on their NHL club. We've have to thin he's taking a spot too, that's 5. Who gets the last spot?
You'd have to think that MDZ would be the leading candidate considering his rookie campaign and the number of NHL games under his belt. Expect that MDZ and a veteran for safety makes the team for the 6th and 7th defenseman spots. That puts everyone else cut or in Hartford.
Matt Gilroy, he played well in the playoffs but really no one sheds a tear when the RFA turns UFA and walks away. The only impact here is maybe future UFAs look at the Ranger and decide not to sign. From here on, it gets sticky.
Valentenko is an RFA at 23, for the 2nd time, are the Rangers going to keep him or let him go after this year? Certainly if if Vtank doesn't crack the squad by 24 I can't see him sticking around for another year. As much as he's said he wants to be a Ranger the KHL or another team with a thinner squad will give him the chance like a Dallas or Edmonton.
If Valentenko doesn't make the Rangers then certainly a guy like Pashnin isn't going to bother wasting his time. He's got the skills and potential but he'll put it to use in the KHL where he played last year.
2 prospects that can be NHL talent, down the drain because we failed to make room.
Kundratek will probably be fine in the minors for another season but, next year or the year after, we're going to run into the same issue because Erixon, Staal, McD, Sauer, MDZ, and Girardi aren't old and will be kept around for several years. Eventually someone will have to go to make room for him and oh yeah...
McIlrath. Where is his spot in a year or two? By then guys like Erixon and MDZ have only solidified roles along side of McD, Staal and Sauer. When does Girardi go? Let him walk as a UFA? Ship him out as a rental?
Eventually you have to make room for someone, why not now.
The Rangers have 4 sold D, they are Staal, McD, Sauer and Erixon. Girardi is their #5
THIS IS SCARY HOW DUMB THIS LOGIC IS. THOSE YOUNG KIDS HAVE A CHANCE TO PROVE/EARN A SPOT. GIVE A WAY A TOP DEFENSEMAN SO A YOUNG PROSPECT CAN WORK OUT HIS PROGRESSION ON AN NHL CLUB? THIS IS LITERALLY THE STUPIDEST THING IVE READ. IF THEY CANT PROVE THEY ARE BETTER THAN GIRARDI THEN THEY DONT DESERVE A SPOT.
THIS IS SCARY HOW DUMB THIS LOGIC IS. THOSE YOUNG KIDS HAVE A CHANCE TO PROVE/EARN A SPOT. GIVE A WAY A TOP DEFENSEMAN SO A YOUNG PROSPECT CAN WORK OUT HIS PROGRESSION ON AN NHL CLUB? THIS IS LITERALLY THE STUPIDEST THING IVE READ. IF THEY CANT PROVE THEY ARE BETTER THAN GIRARDI THEN THEY DONT DESERVE A SPOT.
Without being so insulting I was going to say roughly this. Opening room for a guy who potentially could make the team should not be a reason for trading Girardi. I know that's not your only reason butit shouldn't even be a reason at all. it's more like a little perk that while trading Girardi for a great F we also open a spot...however we should be opening it for a guy who earns it and nobody has right now. So really that "potential perk" is just a risk. A pretty unnecassary risk imo. Yes we need a scoring forward but we have Girardi under contract 3 more years and none of those prospects are going anywhere next year. Give them at least another full year and if they show they're ready then yea we are dealing from a position of strength with our D. Like wioth Roszi we didn't trade and pray before the season started which was good bc McD needed time in the AHL first but once we saw we had a good shot with mcD we were comfortable trading Roszi. Same with girardi we def need another half a season at LEAST to see if trading him is a good move.
Girardi proved last year he's a legitamate 1st pairing D man. He played on the top pair all season and helped shut down some of the best offensive lines in hockey consistently. I would NOT argue he can carry a top pair of course not he's a #2 or excellent 3 which is better than the borderline 4 or 5 most people argued he was just a year or so ago (not everybody)
Last edited by JimmyStart*: 06-08-2011 at 05:51 PM.
Sigh. Such a trade would go down assuming Burns would sign an extension with us. Of course, we don't trade Girardi for potentially half a season of Burns.
Is there anyway possible to guarantee this? I thought if you traded for a guy you basically get half a season plus initial negotiating rights. I didn't think Richards was worth that for Artie and I'm not sure Burns is worth that with Girardi. His questioning you was pretty valid if that's true. You obviously feel it's worth the risk I'm not argueing against it although i personally don't like the idea. I'm still waiting to get a laugh if Deron Williams leaves the Nets but I dread that happenning to a team I like.
Is there anyway possible to guarantee this? I thought if you traded for a guy you basically get half a season plus initial negotiating rights. I didn't think Richards was worth that for Artie and I'm not sure Burns is worth that with Girardi. His questioning you was pretty valid if that's true
Tis indeed. Especially since he will be a free agent next year, why bother wasting the assets in order to try to trade for him when we can get him for just cash? Im stating that id rather use the assets we have in order to trade for a legit 1st line forward talent. Even if we fail to sign Burns in the offseason, with another season under the belts of Mcd and Sauer.. With the likes of Erixon, MDZ, V-Tank, and Kundrateks progression we may enable us to not have to get another defensman and we may need to make room for them anyway in the coming seasons.
How good is Burns defensively? It he's not solid in his own zone, I'm not entertaining trading Girardi to replace him with a guy who's about to hit UFA and ask for a raise that would make him our highest paid defenseman. Lots of risk involved there. Short-sample size with the team, and impending July 1st deadline which drives up the asking price.
Burns kinda plays a rover role IMO, kinda like Dustin Byfuglien
Here are his splits:
.................G G A Pts +/- Pims PPG PPA
Pre All-Star 47 14 17 31 -3 62 6 5
Post All-Star 33 3 12 15 -7 86 2 1
I'd like see him put up his pre all-star numbers more consistantly before im sold on him being the difference maker people are making him out to be.
1). Young, talented, unproven dmen? Yes.
3+4). Doesn't make Girardi expendable. And there's no guarantee the guy we obtain for him single-handedly remedies our lack of scoring.
1) Young and unproven until you make room for them and let them play on that 3rd pairing.
7) No one player remedies anything single-handedly in hockey, though he could help. I'd say if you bring in a forward it takes away room for a prospect like Grachev so you package him up too. Edmonton is looking to move Hemsky or even better, Minnesota is looking to shakeup their whole roster and you go after a guy like Havlat. Package Girardi & Grachev for a guy like that and now you have a nice winger to go with Gabby with Stepan in the middle. The salary shuffle actual doesn't add much and with such a young cheap defense, you can spend a lot on forwards, which still lets you go after Richards. Richards with Dubi and Cally, now you got 2 high powered lines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion
Can you guys remind me what happened last time we traded a top-4 dmen for a scoring forward . . . ?
The only other time they had top4 defensive depth which is when McD and Sauer made Roszival expendable. They traded him for Wolski. Prior to that you have to go all the way back to when the NHL commissioner stepped in and penalized St. Louis for stealing Mike Keenan and forced them to give up Petr Nedved for Doug Lidster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bscharf
THIS IS SCARY HOW DUMB THIS LOGIC IS. THOSE YOUNG KIDS HAVE A CHANCE TO PROVE/EARN A SPOT. GIVE A WAY A TOP DEFENSEMAN SO A YOUNG PROSPECT CAN WORK OUT HIS PROGRESSION ON AN NHL CLUB? THIS IS LITERALLY THE STUPIDEST THING IVE READ. IF THEY CANT PROVE THEY ARE BETTER THAN GIRARDI THEN THEY DONT DESERVE A SPOT.
That's the thing though Kundratek and Valentenko were fantastic down in CT last year. There's no doubt they're going to shine in camp this year. If they do, then do you advocate trading Girardi?
I'm not saying to make room for them to work out their stuff on the NHL team. I'm saying their ready and to make room for them so they can make the next step because if not, you're going to lose them.
Valentenko has played in the AHL and KHL. He's been developing his game very much in the same style as Girardi.
That's the thing though Kundratek and Valentenko were fantastic down in CT last year. There's no doubt they're going to shine in camp this year. If they do, then do you advocate trading Girardi?
I'm not saying to make room for them to work out their stuff on the NHL team. I'm saying their ready and to make room for them so they can make the next step because if not, you're going to lose them.
Valentenko has played in the AHL and KHL. He's been developing his game very much in the same style as Girardi.
If Kundratek n Valentanko create buzz and look like good nhl ready prospects in camp, don't you think a rebuilding team would rather have them than Girardi?
I'm more interested in moving 1 or both of those two for talent. If V-tank is a Girardi-like Dman i'd rather have the proven, real thing in Girardi.
If Kundratek n Valentanko create buzz and look like good nhl ready prospects in camp, don't you think a rebuilding team would rather have them than Girardi?
I'm more interested in moving 1 or both of those two for talent. If V-tank is a Girardi-like Dman i'd rather have the proven, real thing in Girardi.
Teams that are going through rebuilds don't have players the Rangers want. Teams that are moving forward and looking to make the playoffs do. Teams that are looking to shake things up and changes things, do. There are more teams like that then someone going through a full blown youth movement. Even Tom Renney has told his players that they'll be in the playoffs this coming season. Though you know Tom is going to want Dan Girardi who he knows way over anyone else.
