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Old
06-08-2011, 03:57 PM
  #76
DenverBoone
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
5 on 4 PP, GFON/60
Timonen 6.59
Pronger 6.29
Meszaros 3.96
Coburn 3.79
Carle 3.51

I realize you're a fanboy, but the PP with Carle out there QBing as opposed to Timonen dropped in
effectiveness by a full 3 *ing goals per 60 minutes.

The year before that, Carle had a GFON/60 of 8.62. Timonen had a GFON/60 of 7.10.

So, Timonen had a net rate drop of 0.51 GFON/60 on the PP last year, and Carle had a net drop of 5.11. Matt Carle's decreased effectiveness on the PP last year is a BIG reason the PP struggled the way it did. The moment Timonen went off the ice, we couldn't score PP goals.

The argument that Carle did not produce as expected on the PP does hold water. It's based in empirical reality, not fanboy fantasyland. Carle SUCKED on the PP last year, and it really hurt the team.
I like your statistical analysis, but I could have done without the customary flaming at the end.

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06-08-2011, 04:11 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
I like your statistical analysis, but I could have done without the customary flaming at the end.
I could do without Carle BJs, but we don't all get what we want in life.

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06-08-2011, 04:15 PM
  #78
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Not a chance.

I'd give up something like...

To Caputi/Meuller+TOR 4th+BOS2nd (2012)

To Carle
The most they'd get is a similar package Montreal gave up for James Wisniewski (A 2nd and maybe a mid to late rd pick).

Aulie? No way.

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Old
06-08-2011, 04:18 PM
  #79
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I could do without Carle BJs, but we don't all get what we want in life.
Who is your favorite player?

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06-08-2011, 04:20 PM
  #80
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Who is your favorite player?
Gagne.

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06-08-2011, 04:21 PM
  #81
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Well, the real problem is that Carle has NO shot. He's just not dangerous in himself with the puck at the point... and defenses don't really respect his shot, which then limits the offense you can create elsewhere.
Carle had 8 PP goals in 06/07 so that isn't true that he has no shot. He's shown in the past that he's capable.And there's more ways to be dangerous at the point of the PP than just shooting. It's also not true that defenses don't respect him at the point when he has the puck. Defenses just don't play that way.

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06-08-2011, 04:28 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Carle had 8 PP goals in 06/07 so that isn't true that he has no shot. He's shown in the past that he's capable.And there's more ways to be dangerous at the point of the PP than just shooting. It's also not true that defenses don't respect him at the point when he has the puck. Defenses just don't play that way.
Carle wasn't scoring from the point all that much that year. Primarily, he was getting the backdoor pass from Thornton who planted himself behind the net. I think Carle will pot 5-10 goals next year, for who is anybodys guess. As much as he is vilified here, Philly traded for him and still seems to like him.

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06-08-2011, 04:45 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
Carle wasn't scoring from the point all that much that year. Primarily, he was getting the backdoor pass from Thornton who planted himself behind the net. I think Carle will pot 5-10 goals next year, for who is anybodys guess. As much as he is vilified here, Philly traded for him and still seems to like him.
A goal is a goal, as far as I'm concerned. I'm expecting Carle to be paying with the Flyers this upcoming Season.

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06-08-2011, 05:10 PM
  #84
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You really felt it was worth your time to tap this out?
I'm a Leafs fan. My time in April/May/June is worthless

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06-08-2011, 08:26 PM
  #85
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One of the biggest reasons people don't want to trade Carle is because people are afraid of Pronger and Timonen getting hurt. "If they get hurt, and you don't have Carle, then what?"

Well, what happens if Carle (and Coburn) himself gets hurt? It only takes one hit, puck, or cheap shot to put a guy in the hospital. If these were the issues, no one would ever get traded.

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06-08-2011, 09:05 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
One of the biggest reasons people don't want to trade Carle is because people are afraid of Pronger and Timonen getting hurt. "If they get hurt, and you don't have Carle, then what?"

Well, what happens if Carle (and Coburn) himself gets hurt? It only takes one hit, puck, or cheap shot to put a guy in the hospital. If these were the issues, no one would ever get traded.
If Carle or Coburn would get hurt, then we would still have 4 solid D men.
And it's not just if someone would get hurt. It's also the extended minutes that Timonen and Pronger would have to play in the regular Season, wearing them down.
Chris Pronger being injured and unavailable and Timonen being obviously banged up and worn down were big factors in the Flyers playoff failure. You want to make that situation likely again? Overextend Pronger and Timonen in the regular season.

Bill Meltzer again spoke of the situation in a blog today.


"Apart from goaltending, however, there still appear to be some pieces of the puzzle missing for the Flyers. For one thing, the club could get mighty thin on the blueline in a hurry if Chris Pronger isn't healthy and/or if Kimmo Timonen gets worn down again. It does not make sense to trade a player such as Matt Carle in a salary dump because the club already has question marks about filling the sixth defense spot and worries about its aging top two defensemen. "

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06-08-2011, 09:08 PM
  #87
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Well Carle doesn't come close to replacing our top two defenseman, so I'm not terribly worried about it. Luckily we have Mez.

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06-08-2011, 09:09 PM
  #88
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That's not the point though. You don't trade Carle because Pronger and Timonen are old. If Carle himself gets hurt, Pronger and Timonen are still old, and Oskars Bartulis all of a sudden becomes a 17-minute defenseman.

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06-08-2011, 09:10 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Well Carle doesn't come close to replacing our top two defenseman, so I'm not terribly worried about it. Luckily we have Mez.

He comes closer than Bartulis, Gustafsson, Walker, etc!

And if Meszaros replaces Pronger or Timonen, who replaces Meszaros? It's a domino effect.

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06-08-2011, 09:12 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
That's not the point though. You don't trade Carle because Pronger and Timonen are old. If Carle himself gets hurt, Pronger and Timonen are still old, and Oskars Bartulis all of a sudden becomes a 17-minute defenseman.
No he doesn't. You still have Coburn and Meszaros. It's absolutely the point.

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06-08-2011, 09:15 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
No he doesn't. You still have Coburn and Meszaros. It's absolutely the point.
Ok, so we still have Coburn and Meszaros. Cool, so we can trade Carle, no sweat. Thanks.

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06-08-2011, 09:17 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Bill Meltzer again spoke of the situation in a blog today.


"Apart from goaltending, however, there still appear to be some pieces of the puzzle missing for the Flyers. For one thing, the club could get mighty thin on the blueline in a hurry if Chris Pronger isn't healthy and/or if Kimmo Timonen gets worn down again. It does not make sense to trade a player such as Matt Carle in a salary dump because the club already has question marks about filling the sixth defense spot and worries about its aging top two defensemen. "
Again with the Meltzer thing. Who cares what Bill Meltzer thinks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
He comes closer than Bartulis, Gustafsson, Walker, etc!

And if Meszaros replaces Pronger or Timonen, who replaces Meszaros? It's a domino effect.
The same guy that would replace Meszaros if they were healthy. You can't realistically have 3.5 million dollars on the third pairing and pay for a premier goaltender. The choice is, in my mind, between a D-man and Bryz, and Bryz has the ability to do more to help the net stay empty, with or with out injuries.

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06-08-2011, 09:30 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by go david krejci 430 View Post
Ok, so we still have Coburn and Meszaros. Cool, so we can trade Carle, no sweat. Thanks.
You can trade anyone. The question is, is it smart to do so.

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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Again with the Meltzer thing. Who cares what Bill Meltzer thinks?
Most people who want to read the opinion of probably the best local analyst covering the Flyers. You can learn a lot from Bill Meltzer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post

The same guy that would replace Meszaros if they were healthy. You can't realistically have 3.5 million dollars on the third pairing and pay for a premier goaltender. The choice is, in my mind, between a D-man and Bryz, and Bryz has the ability to do more to help the net stay empty, with or with out injuries.
You absolutely can realistically have 3.5M on the 3rd pair, 2nd pair, or whatever number you want to give to a pair. The choice doesn't have to be between a D man and Bryz at all. There are other options.



And for you guys who like advanced stats

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...delphia-flyers

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06-08-2011, 09:31 PM
  #94
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You trade Carle for a D man.... with a smaller hit.

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06-08-2011, 09:58 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
You absolutely can realistically have 3.5M on the 3rd pair, 2nd pair, or whatever number you want to give to a pair. The choice doesn't have to be between a D man and Bryz at all. There are other options.


Okay let's have 6 mill in net and 3.5 mill on the #5 d-man......what are we spending on forwards? At some point your depth players need to be payed like depth players.

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06-08-2011, 10:03 PM
  #96
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Okay let's have 6 mill in net and 3.5 mill on the #5 d-man......what are we spending on forwards? At some point your depth players need to be payed like depth players.
There is going to be a hole in the Flyers lineup somewhere. That is inevitable. The smart choice is at Wing, which is the least important position in Hockey. You need to be strong in net, strong on D, and strong up the middle.
The Flyers are going to need contributions, like pretty much every team is from role players such as Nodl, Powe, and someone from the prospect level is going to have to step up.
You can label a player a 5th D man all you want. But when that player is playing 20+ minutes a night on defense, that's not a depth player.

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06-08-2011, 10:14 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
There is going to be a hole in the Flyers lineup somewhere. That is inevitable. The smart choice is at Wing, which is the least important position in Hockey. You need to be strong in net, strong on D, and strong up the middle.
The Flyers are going to need contributions, like pretty much every team is from role players such as Nodl, Powe, and someone from the prospect level is going to have to step up.


You can label a player a 5th D man all you want. But when that player is playing 20+ minutes a night on defense, that's not a depth player.
There doesn't need to be a hole on the roster. You can't be stacked everywhere, but you can certainly have balance and an over all strong roster.

Also, it doesn't matter where yous lot Carle on the depth chart. You can say Coburn or Meszaros are the #5 if you care to split hairs, but at the end of the day you need to get rid of one of them or you're going to be spending minimum of 3.2 on a #5.

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06-08-2011, 10:15 PM
  #98
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Let's play this game at forward: Who replaces Carter, Richards, JVR, Giroux, Hartnell and Briere when they get injured?

Also...we wouldn't be asking Syvret, Bart of Gus to be replacing Kimmo or Prongs if they get injured. Mez would be asked to try and fill that role. So really, one of them would be asked to take Mez's place.

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06-08-2011, 10:17 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Let's play this game at forward: Who replaces Carter, Richards, JVR, Giroux, Hartnell and Briere when they get injured?
Matt Carle/

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06-08-2011, 10:21 PM
  #100
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Matt Carle/
Clearly.

I mean really, using that logic, we can't sign Bryz because we shouldn't trade anybody...because, what if someone gets hurt!?

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