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Old
06-08-2011, 11:36 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Clearly.

I mean really, using that logic, we can't sign Bryz because we shouldn't trade anybody...because, what if someone gets hurt!?
The problem is that worrying over injures is completely rational. The bigger problem is that due to the salary cap and our farm system, we're *ed if we have serious injury problems.

That's just the way it is.

Under the salary cap depth is the hardest thing to maintain... and the reality is that when you have injuries, the way you manage them is with young players stepping up. This is the biggest lesson concerning the salary cap to be gleaned from the NFL. The only real difference is that they don't have farm systems.

You can't manage potential injuries on your active roster, the cap doesn't allow it. If you do manage injuries on your active roster, you're robbing yourself of depth at other positions. We may have a rash of injuries on D next year, we may have none. You just don't know. We could have a rash of injuries at forward next year, and we may have none.

If you rob from the forwards to pay for the D, then you're making life risky up front... and the same goes in the other direction.

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06-08-2011, 11:56 PM
  #102
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Yeah, I get that. I just take issue with using a worst case injury scenario as reason to not trade one of the more expendable players so we can address goaltending.

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06-08-2011, 11:59 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, I get that. I just take issue with using a worst case injury scenario as reason to not trade one of the more expendable players so we can address goaltending.
Oh, I agree with you... just addressing the complicated nature of the problem.

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06-09-2011, 12:09 AM
  #104
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The problem is that we're not anticipating a player getting crunched under a falling piano; odds are good that Pronger will start the season either on IR or nursing something.

Please note that I'm just being contrarian, as I'd like to see Carle traded, too.

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06-09-2011, 12:17 AM
  #105
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Oh, I agree with you... just addressing the complicated nature of the problem.
It's a good thing we have lots of good, quality prospects to call up in case of injury.

Oh wait.

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06-09-2011, 12:22 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
The problem is that we're not anticipating a player getting crunched under a falling piano; odds are good that Pronger will start the season either on IR or nursing something.

Please note that I'm just being contrarian, as I'd like to see Carle traded, too.
I would generally expect some injuries... way it goes. The real question is what do you do if player X cannot play when it really matters? That's what then leads to the problematic answer: you can't really do that much about it unless you want to be weaker elsewhere.

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06-09-2011, 12:40 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's a good thing we have lots of good, quality prospects to call up in case of injury.

Oh wait.
Oh, I want to play this game again!

Don't worry, at least we have a few early picks this year to make up for it.

Oh wait.

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06-09-2011, 12:42 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's a good thing we have lots of good, quality prospects to call up in case of injury.

Oh wait.
Homer is always right. How dare you question a "professional".

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06-09-2011, 02:10 AM
  #109
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Homer is always right. How dare you question a "professional".
yep if Holmgren thinks its fine to have the worst group of prospects in the NHL then we have no right to question him at all because he is always right and knows more then all of us combined about hockey

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06-09-2011, 06:36 AM
  #110
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yep if Holmgren thinks its fine to have the worst group of prospects in the NHL then we have no right to question him at all because he is always right and knows more then all of us combined about hockey
Thank God this is just a talk forum and not the REAL WORLD!

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06-09-2011, 07:49 AM
  #111
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There doesn't need to be a hole on the roster. You can't be stacked everywhere, but you can certainly have balance and an over all strong roster.

Also, it doesn't matter where yous lot Carle on the depth chart. You can say Coburn or Meszaros are the #5 if you care to split hairs, but at the end of the day you need to get rid of one of them or you're going to be spending minimum of 3.2 on a #5.
This is a simple concept. Spending 3.2M on a defenseman that is going to play a key role and play over 20 minutes a night is a worthwhile cost against the Cap. You don't need to get rid of one of them, you need to keep them.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Clearly.

I mean really, using that logic, we can't sign Bryz because we shouldn't trade anybody...because, what if someone gets hurt!?
That's not the logic at all. The logic is on how to determine where your going to have the shortage in depth in your lineup due to Cap issues and having to sign Bryzgalov. Wing is the least important position, that's where the hole should be.

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Yeah, I get that. I just take issue with using a worst case injury scenario as reason to not trade one of the more expendable players so we can address goaltending.
I take issue with how you determine which player is expendable. Trading a defenseman doesn't make sense in my opinion. Someone is going to have to be traded.

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yep if Holmgren thinks its fine to have the worst group of prospects in the NHL then we have no right to question him at all because he is always right and knows more then all of us combined about hockey
What give you the idea that Holmgren thinks it's fine? If you have a legitimate basis to question Holmgren, that that is more than fair.

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06-09-2011, 08:53 AM
  #112
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Thank God this is just a talk forum and not the REAL WORLD!


Don't worry, this bridge was built by professional engineers who know all about factoring for all forces affecting a suspension bridge.

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06-09-2011, 09:02 AM
  #113
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I would generally expect some injuries... way it goes. The real question is what do you do if player X cannot play when it really matters? That's what then leads to the problematic answer: you can't really do that much about it unless you want to be weaker elsewhere.
I'm just pointing out that Pronger has more than one established health issues, and Holmgren should at least line up some options and, bare minimum, be super clear on the contract situation of the top 5 defense prospects in the very likely scenario that one has to get called up. Will Walker be healthy enough to even vie for a spot in preseason camp? He's too costly as a bottom-pairing Dman, but if Pronger needs to be out a month or more, he's in the wider equation. Alternatively, who could be signed for ≤$1 million who won't make us cringe every time he steps on the ice? Given their dismal PP effort, would the Flyers take a risk on MAB? There are a lot of FAs who could perform spot duty on Pronger's LTIR dime – not that I advocate that as option 1 – and in the long run, Pronger might benefit from proper rehab time to finish the year strongly.

Preseason is where bandaids can be put on a potentially significant injury problem, and then react as the situation becomes clearer within the season.

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06-09-2011, 09:39 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I'm just pointing out that Pronger has more than one established health issues, and Holmgren should at least line up some options and, bare minimum, be super clear on the contract situation of the top 5 defense prospects in the very likely scenario that one has to get called up. Will Walker be healthy enough to even vie for a spot in preseason camp? He's too costly as a bottom-pairing Dman, but if Pronger needs to be out a month or more, he's in the wider equation. Alternatively, who could be signed for ≤$1 million who won't make us cringe every time he steps on the ice? Given their dismal PP effort, would the Flyers take a risk on MAB? There are a lot of FAs who could perform spot duty on Pronger's LTIR dime – not that I advocate that as option 1 – and in the long run, Pronger might benefit from proper rehab time to finish the year strongly.

Preseason is where bandaids can be put on a potentially significant injury problem, and then react as the situation becomes clearer within the season.

Unless a player is going to be on LTIR for the entire Season, then getting the LTIR exemption for a player who is only going to be out for parts of the Season, is temporary. As soon as the player is activated, the exemption disapears. And then you have to make a move in order to activate Pronger.

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06-09-2011, 10:37 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
That's not the logic at all. The logic is on how to determine where your going to have the shortage in depth in your lineup due to Cap issues and having to sign Bryzgalov. Wing is the least important position, that's where the hole should be.

I take issue with how you determine which player is expendable. Trading a defenseman doesn't make sense in my opinion. Someone is going to have to be traded.
Not really. We have a problem with the whole "legit winger" thing. Who will we have next year if we don't re-sign Leino? Versteeg...Carter can play on wing if he has to...JVR...Giroux can play on wing...Hartnell. Our best wingers are centers. That's pretty much the end of the skill list., after that you get into the Nodls and Carcillos. We have nice offensive depth overall, but it doesn't take long before you start putting serious dents into it.

Bryz is a far superior goalie to anything we've had in a long, long time. We needed to build that expensive defense to cover for Leighton and Boosh, who Homer intended to be our starting tandem going into the season. Bryzgalaov can manage with a slightly weakened defense. Carle is the weakest defensive player, and his cap hit is too high considering that fact. So, he should go. The defense gets a little worse, but goaltending gets much better so it evens out.

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06-09-2011, 10:52 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Not really. We have a problem with the whole "legit winger" thing. Who will we have next year if we don't re-sign Leino? Versteeg...Carter can play on wing if he has to...JVR...Giroux can play on wing...Hartnell. Our best wingers are centers. That's pretty much the end of the skill list., after that you get into the Nodls and Carcillos. We have nice offensive depth overall, but it doesn't take long before you start putting serious dents into it.

Bryz is a far superior goalie to anything we've had in a long, long time. We needed to build that expensive defense to cover for Leighton and Boosh, who Homer intended to be our starting tandem going into the season. Bryzgalaov can manage with a slightly weakened defense. Carle is the weakest defensive player, and his cap hit is too high considering that fact. So, he should go. The defense gets a little worse, but goaltending gets much better so it evens out.

Even if the Flyers don't resign Leino and move another Forward such as Versteeg, they still have plenty of offense. As much as any team. Every team has to rely on players such as Nodl, to chip in.

Carle's Cap hit is well worth the production he brings. Carle may or may not be the weakest defensive player, that's debatable. Even if he is, compared to the others he is still a solid player in his own end and his playmaking and puck moving ablility are keys to the team. I don't see those as being reasons for why he should go. For the reasons I have explained multiple times. Those reasons still exist.

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06-09-2011, 11:03 AM
  #117
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Even if the Flyers don't resign Leino and move another Forward such as Versteeg, they still have plenty of offense. As much as any team. Every team has to rely on players such as Nodl, to chip in.

Carle's Cap hit is well worth the production he brings. Carle may or may not be the weakest defensive player, that's debatable. Even if he is, compared to the others he is still a solid player in his own end and his playmaking and puck moving ablility are keys to the team. I don't see those as being reasons for why he should go. For the reasons I have explained multiple times. Those reasons still exist.
They really don't. You and a couple other writers see them, and that's it. Anyone with a set of objective eyes can see Carle's weaknesses from miles away. The guy is softer than marshmallows.

I don't care about how well a defenseman moves the puck or generates assists when compared to defensive ability. They are DEFENSEman, after all. That skill usually causes them to be overrated. Kaberle is a great example of that.

We have a very deep defense...losing Carle is less of a big deal than losing Hartnell. As for Versteeg...we don't even know what he's capable of and his value is currently at a low.

edit: Another example of point production causing a defenseman to be overrated: Mike Green.


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06-09-2011, 12:29 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post



What give you the idea that Holmgren thinks it's fine? If you have a legitimate basis to question Holmgren, that that is more than fair.
you need to read my post again and look at that smiley at the end of the post.

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06-09-2011, 12:41 PM
  #119
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Even if the Flyers don't resign Leino and move another Forward such as Versteeg, they still have plenty of offense. As much as any team. Every team has to rely on players such as Nodl, to chip in.

Carle's Cap hit is well worth the production he brings. Carle may or may not be the weakest defensive player, that's debatable. Even if he is, compared to the others he is still a solid player in his own end and his playmaking and puck moving ablility are keys to the team. I don't see those as being reasons for why he should go. For the reasons I have explained multiple times. Those reasons still exist.
I'm a Carle fan and I have no problem admitting that he's the weakest defensively amongst the group of defensemen in Philadelphia. That's not a slag, that's just the way it is. Has he gotten better since coming to Philadelphia? No question. With that being said, the Flyers already have an offensive defenseman who brings much more to the table than Carle does and his name is Andrej Meszaros.

The one thing that hurts Carle is his lack of a physical game. Meszaros not only has a physical game, but he can get down right nasty. On top of it, Meszaros has a great shot from the point. His shots get through when he decides to use it (and for some reason, I'll never understand why the coaching staff in Philadelphia doesn't let him use that shot even more).

In all fairness, and like I said I'm a Carle fan, I realize he's the odd man out from this group of defenders. I should also mention there's one other thing that hurts Carle and that's his skating ability. That's something where Coburn and Meszaros have him beat in spades.

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06-09-2011, 12:50 PM
  #120
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Thanks for reminding me AGAIN about us having no picks or prospects, now I want to go out and strangle somebody, no wait, not just anybody, just ONE body in Philly.


<goes and grabs his Louisville and heads out the door>

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06-09-2011, 12:55 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
They really don't. You and a couple other writers see them, and that's it. Anyone with a set of objective eyes can see Carle's weaknesses from miles away. The guy is softer than marshmallows.

I don't care about how well a defenseman moves the puck or generates assists when compared to defensive ability. They are DEFENSEman, after all. That skill usually causes them to be overrated. Kaberle is a great example of that.

We have a very deep defense...losing Carle is less of a big deal than losing Hartnell. As for Versteeg...we don't even know what he's capable of and his value is currently at a low.

edit: Another example of point production causing a defenseman to be overrated: Mike Green.
You just keep making it up as you go along. Are you really telling me that moving the puck isn't part of playing defense? It's one of the most important aspect to playing defense in today's NHL. I can't stress that any more. It's a passing skating game. Now you tell me anyone with objective eyes can see that he's soft, and can see his weaknesses. That's a statement that you can't back up. I posted an article written by an "objective eye" yesterday, stating just the opposite about Carle. It got ignored. I've yet to read you or anyone else back up and substantiate these statements. And that's because it can't be done. Again, you think that Carle is poor in his own end and now you have made up some formula to say he's overrated. It's simply not the case. Losing Carle is a big deal and I've backed that up with solid reasoning. And I guarantee you that it's just not me and couple of writers.

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I'm a Carle fan and I have no problem admitting that he's the weakest defensively amongst the group of defensemen in Philadelphia. That's not a slag, that's just the way it is. Has he gotten better since coming to Philadelphia? No question. With that being said, the Flyers already have an offensive defenseman who brings much more to the table than Carle does and his name is Andrej Meszaros.

The one thing that hurts Carle is his lack of a physical game. Meszaros not only has a physical game, but he can get down right nasty. On top of it, Meszaros has a great shot from the point. His shots get through when he decides to use it (and for some reason, I'll never understand why the coaching staff in Philadelphia doesn't let him use that shot even more).

In all fairness, and like I said I'm a Carle fan, I realize he's the odd man out from this group of defenders. I should also mention there's one other thing that hurts Carle and that's his skating ability. That's something where Coburn and Meszaros have him beat in spades.
Carle is a very good skater. Every player has their strengths and weaknesses. I disagree that Meszaros brings more to the table than Carle does. Each player brings their own strengths to the table. Carle's lack of a physical game doesn't hurt him. He's a solid player defensively.

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06-09-2011, 01:12 PM
  #122
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Carle's lack of a physical game absolutely detracts from his ability to defend. When the play calls for a D man to stand the attacker up as he comes over the blue line or body up to ride the guy off to the boards etc., Carle repeatedly fails to do so. I've seen several instances where he fails to take the body when defending against an oncoming attacker who is able to deke around him and his fancy stickchecks or when he gives a shooter too much time and space to operate or fails to mark/clear a man in the low slot. This and his questionable plays with the puck from deep in the defensive zone are among his biggest deficiencies imo.

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06-09-2011, 01:21 PM
  #123
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You just keep making it up as you go along. Are you really telling me that moving the puck isn't part of playing defense? It's one of the most important aspect to playing defense in today's NHL. I can't stress that any more. It's a passing skating game. Now you tell me anyone with objective eyes can see that he's soft, and can see his weaknesses. That's a statement that you can't back up. I posted an article written by an "objective eye" yesterday, stating just the opposite about Carle. It got ignored. I've yet to read you or anyone else back up and substantiate these statements. And that's because it can't be done. Again, you think that Carle is poor in his own end and now you have made up some formula to say he's overrated. It's simply not the case. Losing Carle is a big deal and I've backed that up with solid reasoning. And I guarantee you that it's just not me and couple of writers.
If you want to play that game, Carle's puck movement in his own end is often among the worst. For every great outlet pass he has, he usually has about two mind-numbing turnovers. Those turnovers in his own end often lead to goals.

Puck movement on defense is something you do AFTER you have the puck, as well. That usually occurs after you've played strong defense, or have taken away the puck. Carle doesn't play strong defense, and he turns the puck over far more than he takes it away. The only player on D who was worse was in that regard was OD.

You also mentioned skating. Coburn, Mez, and Timonen are all better skaters. Pronger is fairly slow, but he's generally already in position. You also mentioend objectivity. You have yet to back up a single one of your claims about Carle, except "well, writers say so!" Writers also called Leighton a good goalie. Writers say a lot of things....that doesn't mean they're always right.

Here's a new question for you: Who is our most expendable Dman? Pronger, Timonen, Mez, Coburn?

edit: wow, reading your posts, one would think that Carle is as good as Timonen, if not a little better. Apaprently he plays defense well, is great on offense, AND is a strong skater.

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06-09-2011, 01:25 PM
  #124
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If you want to play that game, Carle's puck movement in his own end is often among the worst. For every great outlet pass he has, he usually has about two mind-numbing turnovers. Those turnovers in his own end often lead to goals.

Puck movement on defense is something you do AFTER you have the puck, as well. That usually occurs after you've played strong defense, or have taken away the puck. Carle doesn't play strong defense, and he turns the puck over far more than he takes it away. The only player on D who was worse was in that regard was OD.

You also mentioned skating. Coburn, Mez, and Timonen are all better skaters. Pronger is fairly slow, but he's generally already in position. You also mentioend objectivity. You have yet to back up a single one of your claims about Carle, except "well, writers say so!" Writers also called Leighton a good goalie. Writers say a lot of things....that doesn't mean they're always right.

Here's a new question for you: Who is our most expendable Dman? Pronger, Timonen, Mez, Coburn?

edit: wow, reading your posts, one would think that Carle is as good as Timonen, if not a little better. Apaprently he plays defense well, is great on offense, AND is a strong skater.
I have given up. its like beating a dead horse.

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06-09-2011, 01:25 PM
  #125
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You just keep making it up as you go along. Are you really telling me that moving the puck isn't part of playing defense? It's one of the most important aspect to playing defense in today's NHL. I can't stress that any more. It's a passing skating game. Now you tell me anyone with objective eyes can see that he's soft, and can see his weaknesses. That's a statement that you can't back up. I posted an article written by an "objective eye" yesterday, stating just the opposite about Carle. It got ignored. I've yet to read you or anyone else back up and substantiate these statements. And that's because it can't be done. Again, you think that Carle is poor in his own end and now you have made up some formula to say he's overrated. It's simply not the case. Losing Carle is a big deal and I've backed that up with solid reasoning. And I guarantee you that it's just not me and couple of writers.



Carle is a very good skater. Every player has their strengths and weaknesses. I disagree that Meszaros brings more to the table than Carle does. Each player brings their own strengths to the table. Carle's lack of a physical game doesn't hurt him. He's a solid player defensively.
NHL analysis and professional sports management vote Meszaros as our best defender on the team (that d-man award). Now how you always listen to what these professional NHL analysis say, does your opinion now change on who is better? Remember, these NHL analysis know a lot more than we do, so they have to be correct when judging who the better defender was.

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